Why the Calvinist understanding of 1Cor 2:14 makes no sense

Bob Carabbio

Well-known member
Eph 2:8 indicates that that salvation by faith is the gift

How is it you resisted God's call according to your own testimony if God effectually caused you to believe
You should probably read Eph 2:8,9 again so you see what it REALLY says.

Belief doesn't mean SPIT - the devil BELIEVES, and so do his demons.

It's COMMITMENT in FAITH that matters. Every time I was convicted of my SIN, I loved my OWN WAY better than HIS. And I found that the "Conviction of sin" would fade away if I ran from it.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
You should probably read Eph 2:8,9 again so you see what it REALLY says.

Belief doesn't mean SPIT - the devil BELIEVES, and so do his demons.

It's COMMITMENT in FAITH that matters. Every time I was convicted of my SIN, I loved my OWN WAY better than HIS. And I found that the "Conviction of sin" would fade away if I ran from it.
I did and you have not shown differently

“8. For by grace (tēi gar chariti). Explanatory reason. “By the grace” already mentioned in verse 5 and so with the article. Through faith (dia pisteōs). This phrase he adds in repeating what he said in verse 5 to make it plainer. “Grace” is God’s part, “faith” ours. And that (kai touto). Neuter, not feminine tautē, and so refers not to pistis (feminine) or to charis (feminine also), but to the act of being saved by grace conditioned on faith on our part. Paul shows that salvation does not have its source (ex humōn, out of you) in men, but from God. Besides, it is God’s gift (dōron) and not the result of our work.”

(A. T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament, Accordance electronic ed. (Altamonte Springs: OakTree Software, 2001), paragraph 5313.)

“8. For by grace, etc. This may truly be called exceeding riches of grace, for ye are saved by grace. Grace has the article, the grace of God, in vers. 5, 7.

And that. Not faith, but the salvation.”

(Marvin R. Vincent, Word Studies in the New Testament, Accordance electronic ed. (2004), paragraph 14955.)
 

Bob Carabbio

Well-known member
Can you tell us what the Greek word for "belief" is?
Pistueo, from Pistis
Can you tell us what the Greek word for "faith" is?
Pistis

Your argument will be that "Belief and Faith" are the same thing, of course.

That's unimportant, of course. Heb 11:1, Rom 10:17, Mark 11:23 gives the REQUIREMENTS which must be met in order for Biblical FAITH to exist. and BELIEF (Mental assent) meets none of them.
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
Verse 14....the person without the Spirit...

Verse 15....the person with the Spirit...

Paul is making a compare/contrast about those who possess the Spirit of God versus those who do not.

Verse 16 is a summation of Paul's thought. "But we have the mind of Christ."
1 Cor 2;14 does not state that the person is without the Spirit, not indwelt. So when we interpret what is meant, we need the context to determine who is being talked about in verse 14,. A few verses back in verse 6, paul speaks about being mature.
Maturity refers to a Christian, after being born again, and having learned and been discipled to stop being a baby/immature Christian.

So when you interpret verse 14 to mean they are without the Spirit, you are ignoring the context which is maturity in Christians.
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
That's never been what Eph 2:8,9 said, and no different that what I've always said. It's FAITH that accomplished being saved.
Yes, I agree that faith is the means by which we are saved, but my question was if you thought Ephesians is calling salvation the gift, or you think the gift is faith.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
seth

1 Cor 2;14 does not state that the person is without the Spirit, not indwelt.

Thats what the natural man is ;
psyxikós (an adjective, derived from 5590 /psyxḗ, "soul, natural identity") – properly, soulish, i.e. what is natural, as it relates to physical (tangible) life alone (i.e. apart from God's inworking of faith).

Its the physical life apart from Gods Work inwardly of Faith. Faith is the Gift of God, a fruit of the Spirit. Gal 5 22

Its a corrupt nature:

"governed by the ψυχή i. e. the sensuous nature with its subjection to appetite and passion (as though made up of nothing but ψυχή): ἄνθρωπος (equivalent to σαρκικός (or σάρκινος, which see 3) in ), 1 Corinthians 2:14; ψυχικοί, πνεῦμα μή ἔχοντες, Jude 1:19 (A. V. sensual (R. V. with marginal reading 'Or natural, Or animal'); so in the following example); σοφία, a wisdom in harmony with the corrupt desires and affections, and springing from them (

Jude 1 19

19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

This wors sensual is the same greek word for natural in 1 Cor 2 14 so it describes men who have not the Spirit
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
seth



Thats what the natural man is ;
psyxikós (an adjective, derived from 5590 /psyxḗ, "soul, natural identity") – properly, soulish, i.e. what is natural, as it relates to physical (tangible) life alone (i.e. apart from God's inworking of faith).

Its the physical life apart from Gods Work inwardly of Faith. Faith is the Gift of God, a fruit of the Spirit. Gal 5 22

Its a corrupt nature:

"governed by the ψυχή i. e. the sensuous nature with its subjection to appetite and passion (as though made up of nothing but ψυχή): ἄνθρωπος (equivalent to σαρκικός (or σάρκινος, which see 3) in ), 1 Corinthians 2:14; ψυχικοί, πνεῦμα μή ἔχοντες, Jude 1:19 (A. V. sensual (R. V. with marginal reading 'Or natural, Or animal'); so in the following example); σοφία, a wisdom in harmony with the corrupt desires and affections, and springing from them (

Jude 1 19

19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

This wors sensual is the same greek word for natural in 1 Cor 2 14 so it describes men who have not the Spirit
Have you considered Paul's admonition to Christians that they should not walk in the flesh? Christians have the choice to walk in the Spirit or in the flesh. Regardless of which they do, they are still Christians.
The unsaved can only walk in the flesh as they do not know how to walk in the Spirit.
So again it is incorrect to say that walking in the flesh means you are not saved
 

civic

Well-known member
Have you considered Paul's admonition to Christians that they should not walk in the flesh? Christians have the choice to walk in the Spirit or in the flesh. Regardless of which they do, they are still Christians.
The unsaved can only walk in the flesh as they do not know how to walk in the Spirit.
So again it is incorrect to say that walking in the flesh means you are not saved
WRONG on so many levels........................

You just went on record and contradicted Paul below proving your inability to discern truth from a lie, a believer from an unbeliever, those in the kingdom of God and those outside of His kingdom.

Galatians 5

The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

hope this helps !!!
 
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Bob Carabbio

Well-known member
Yes, I agree that faith is the means by which we are saved, but my question was if you thought Ephesians is calling salvation the gift, or you think the gift is faith.
OBVIOUSLY the gift is FAITH - seems to be in the Form of Holy Spirit CONVICTION of SIN and of Judgement. Obviously Without FAITH (which is impossible for humans to generate), and repentance (only possible under Conviction of SIN) salvation is impossible.
 

civic

Well-known member
Oh boy another one I get to save and quote for future reference. The heresies just keep piling up on the pelagian/jw...............
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
OBVIOUSLY the gift is FAITH - seems to be in the Form of Holy Spirit CONVICTION of SIN and of Judgement. Obviously Without FAITH (which is impossible for humans to generate), and repentance (only possible under Conviction of SIN) salvation is impossible.
ok. I read it that salvation is the gift.
 

civic

Well-known member
Have you considered Paul's admonition to Christians that they should not walk in the flesh? Christians have the choice to walk in the Spirit or in the flesh. Regardless of which they do, they are still Christians.
The unsaved can only walk in the flesh as they do not know how to walk in the Spirit.
So again it is incorrect to say that walking in the flesh means you are not saved
You believe in the pelagian cheap grace as per John and Paul in Galatians 5:21

1 John 3:4-10
Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. 5 You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. 6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. 8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's[a] seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Have you considered Paul's admonition to Christians that they should not walk in the flesh? Christians have the choice to walk in the Spirit or in the flesh. Regardless of which they do, they are still Christians.
The unsaved can only walk in the flesh as they do not know how to walk in the Spirit.
So again it is incorrect to say that walking in the flesh means you are not saved
No seth I am considering Pauls 1 Cor 2 14
 

TomFL

Well-known member
OBVIOUSLY the gift is FAITH - seems to be in the Form of Holy Spirit CONVICTION of SIN and of Judgement. Obviously Without FAITH (which is impossible for humans to generate), and repentance (only possible under Conviction of SIN) salvation is impossible.
Obviously it was not obvious to

“8. For by grace (tēi gar chariti). Explanatory reason. “By the grace” already mentioned in verse 5 and so with the article. Through faith (dia pisteōs). This phrase he adds in repeating what he said in verse 5 to make it plainer. “Grace” is God’s part, “faith” ours. And that (kai touto). Neuter, not feminine tautē, and so refers not to pistis (feminine) or to charis (feminine also), but to the act of being saved by grace conditioned on faith on our part. Paul shows that salvation does not have its source (ex humōn, out of you) in men, but from God. Besides, it is God’s gift (dōron) and not the result of our work.”

(A. T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament, Accordance electronic ed. (Altamonte Springs: OakTree Software, 2001), paragraph 5313.)

“8. For by grace, etc. This may truly be called exceeding riches of grace, for ye are saved by grace. Grace has the article, the grace of God, in vers. 5, 7.

And that. Not faith, but the salvation.”

(Marvin R. Vincent, Word Studies in the New Testament, Accordance electronic ed. (2004), paragraph 14955.)

“But whether are we to understand, faith or salvation as being the gift of God? This question is answered by the Greek text: τη γαρ χαριτι εστε σεσωσμενοι δια της πιστεως· και τουτο ουκ εξ υμων· θεου το δωρον, ουκ εξ εργων· ινα μη τις καυχησηται? “By this grace ye are saved through faith; and THIS (τουτο, this salvation) not of you; it is the gift of God, not of works: so that no one can boast.” “The relative τουτο, this, which is in the neuter gender, cannot stand for πιστις, faith, which is the feminine; but it has the whole sentence that goes before for its antecedent.””

(Adam Clarke, Adam Clarke’s Commentary on the Whole Bible, Accordance electronic ed. (Altamonte Springs: OakTree Software, 2004), paragraph 47787.)

“And that not of yourselves. That is, salvation does not proceed from yourselves. The word rendered that—τουτο—is in the neuter gender, and the word faith—πιστις—is in the feminine. The word “that,” therefore, does not refer particularly to faith, as being the gift of God, but to the salvation by grace of which he had been speaking. This is the interpretation of the passage which is the most obvious, and which is now generally conceded to be the true one.”

(Albert Barnes, Barnes’ Notes on the New Testament, Accordance electronic ed. (Altamonte Springs: OakTree Software, 2006), paragraph 23010.)
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
OBVIOUSLY the gift is FAITH - seems to be in the Form of Holy Spirit CONVICTION of SIN and of Judgement. Obviously Without FAITH (which is impossible for humans to generate), and repentance (only possible under Conviction of SIN) salvation is impossible.
Obviously it was not obvious to

“8. For by grace (tēi gar chariti). Explanatory reason. “By the grace” already mentioned in verse 5 and so with the article. Through faith (dia pisteōs). This phrase he adds in repeating what he said in verse 5 to make it plainer. “Grace” is God’s part, “faith” ours. And that (kai touto). Neuter, not feminine tautē, and so refers not to pistis (feminine) or to charis (feminine also), but to the act of being saved by grace conditioned on faith on our part. Paul shows that salvation does not have its source (ex humōn, out of you) in men, but from God. Besides, it is God’s gift (dōron) and not the result of our work.”

(A. T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament, Accordance electronic ed. (Altamonte Springs: OakTree Software, 2001), paragraph 5313.)

Congratulations, Tom!

You just learned something new!

You just learned that just because someone else thinks something is "obvious", or claims it's "obvious", doesn't make it so.

You might want to remember that the next time YOU want to claim that something is "obvious" (or "clear", or "plain", etc. etc.)

;)
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Obviously it was not obvious to

“8. For by grace (tēi gar chariti). Explanatory reason. “By the grace” already mentioned in verse 5 and so with the article. Through faith (dia pisteōs). This phrase he adds in repeating what he said in verse 5 to make it plainer. “Grace” is God’s part, “faith” ours. And that (kai touto). Neuter, not feminine tautē, and so refers not to pistis (feminine) or to charis (feminine also), but to the act of being saved by grace conditioned on faith on our part. Paul shows that salvation does not have its source (ex humōn, out of you) in men, but from God. Besides, it is God’s gift (dōron) and not the result of our work.”

Robertson basically said that the "gift" is the ENTIRETY of "being saved by grace conditioned on faith".

And that INCLUDES "faith".
“But whether are we to understand, faith or salvation as being the gift of God? This question is answered by the Greek text: τη γαρ χαριτι εστε σεσωσμενοι δια της πιστεως· και τουτο ουκ εξ υμων· θεου το δωρον, ουκ εξ εργων· ινα μη τις καυχησηται? “By this grace ye are saved through faith; and THIS (τουτο, this salvation) not of you; it is the gift of God, not of works: so that no one can boast.” “The relative τουτο, this, which is in the neuter gender, cannot stand for πιστις, faith, which is the feminine; but it has the whole sentence that goes before for its antecedent.”

(Adam Clarke, Adam Clarke’s Commentary on the Whole Bible, Accordance electronic ed. (Altamonte Springs: OakTree Software, 2004), paragraph 47787.)

And Clarke is here agreeing with Robertson, that the "this", the gift referred to by the relative clause, is referring to "the WHOLE sentence that goes before", w which is, "by GRACE are ye SAVED through FAITH".

You see, Tom, you're not reading these commentaries for comprehension, you're simply trying to twist them to try to make them agree with your view.

“And that not of yourselves. That is, salvation does not proceed from yourselves. The word rendered that—τουτο—is in the neuter gender, and the word faith—πιστις—is in the feminine. The word “that,” therefore, does not refer particularly to faith, as being the gift of God, but to the salvation by grace of which he had been speaking. This is the interpretation of the passage which is the most obvious, and which is now generally conceded to be the true one.”

You need read this carefully.
Barnes is saying that the pronoun is not referring PARTICULARLY to "faith", as in referring to faith exclusively. It refers to the ENTIRETY of "by grace ye are saved through faith".

It cannot refer solely to "saved", because that is MASCULINE (not neuter).
It cannot refer solely to "grace", because that is FEMININE (not neuter).
It cannot refer solely to "faith", because that is FEMININE (not neuter).

It cannot refer "solely" to any of them on their own.
It refers COLLECTIVELY to the entirety of "saved/grace/faith".
 

civic

Well-known member
Have you considered Paul's admonition to Christians that they should not walk in the flesh? Christians have the choice to walk in the Spirit or in the flesh. Regardless of which they do, they are still Christians.
The unsaved can only walk in the flesh as they do not know how to walk in the Spirit.
So again it is incorrect to say that walking in the flesh means you are not saved
yikes more pelagian heretical beliefs.....................

you make things up to suit your pelagian views.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
tom

8. For by grace (tēi gar chariti). Explanatory reason. “By the grace” already mentioned in verse 5 and so with the article. Through faith (dia pisteōs). This phrase he adds in repeating what he said in verse 5 to make it plainer. “Grace” is God’s part, “faith” ours.

Obvious error Nothing about our part in the entire passage. Faith is Graces Part, for men believe because of Grace Acts 18 27

And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:

That word through dia, the same prep in Eph 2 8 means:


he ground or reason by which something is or is not done

  1. by reason of
  2. on account of
  3. because of for this reason

Believing is on account of Grace. Grace receives the credit.

Rom 4 16

Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Grace gives Faith, thats why its sure to all the seed. Notice that word seed also. Do you know what that means?
 
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