Why the Calvinist understanding of 1Cor 2:14 makes no sense

civic

Well-known member
In paul's argument, when he discusses how animals have different flesh and celestial bodies have differences, those are metaphors to help the reader grasp that the spiritual body is of its own nature.
Admittedly, which Jesus resurrected, He did have Thomas feel His body to show that He was not a disembodied spirit.
but thatwas not his real eternal spiritual body
No they are not "metaphors" they are realities, facts of nature ie creation. This is always what you do to justify your false teachings with Jesus Bodily Resurrection and present manhood as our Mediator.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
In paul's argument, when he discusses how animals have different flesh and celestial bodies have differences, those are metaphors to help the reader grasp that the spiritual body is of its own nature.
Admittedly, which Jesus resurrected, He did have Thomas feel His body to show that He was not a disembodied spirit.
but thatwas not his real eternal spiritual body
Makes no sense unless the resurrections body is made of flesh. All that he compares is flesh

How would exposition of different kinds of flesh serve you make you understand the resurrections body is not flesh

It wouldn't and would be totally irrelevant to his argument

and no one in the middle of an argument makes irrelevant points

You statement

that was not his real eternal spiritual body

is completely gratuitous

As I noted previous the word body (soma) used literally always refer to what is material

A spirit is not
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
Those of his ilk cannot claim 2 Corinthians 13:8.
Instead of personal insults, you might want to re-examine scripture.
I have already supplied several is this thread, a good one to start with is 1 John 3:2 Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is

Remember that people are saying that after the ascension, John saw Jesus as He is in His new body, but in this verse John is saying that he has never seen Jesus as He is. Why?
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
Makes no sense unless the resurrections body is made of flesh. All that he compares is flesh

How would exposition of different kinds of flesh serve you make you understand the resurrections body is not flesh

It wouldn't and would be totally irrelevant to his argument

and no one in the middle of an argument makes irrelevant points

You statement

that was not his real eternal spiritual body

is completely gratuitous

As I noted previous the word body (soma) used literally always refer to what is material

A spirit is not
You think the sun is flesh? That's part of Paul's comparison. You think a seed and its plant are flesh? That is also part of his comparison.
And yes soma, when used literally, means a tangible body, but Paul is using soma metaphorically
Take 1 cor 15:37 Soma refers tothe body of a plant. and there are more usages.
Some posters here do not know how to recognize when a passage talks about things metaphorically. It is important tp see that.
 
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TomFL

Well-known member
You think the sun is flesh? That's part of Paul's comparison. You think a seed and its plant are flesh? That is also part of his comparison.
And yes soma, when used literally, means a tangible body, but Paul is using soma metaphorically
Take 1 cor 15:37 Soma refers tothe body of a plant. and there are more usages.
Some posters here do not know how to recognize when a passage talks about things metaphorically. It is important tp see that.
Seriously ?

1 Cor. 15:39 —KJV
“All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.”

Its verse 39 the reference was to

and

1 Cor. 15:40–41 —KJV
“There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.”

how would the mention of physical bodies serve to make someone understand the resurection body is not physical

It makes no sense

and your concept is still that of a bodiless (spirit) body
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
You think the sun is flesh? That's part of Paul's comparison. You think a seed and its plant are flesh? That is also part of his comparison.
And yes soma, when used literally, means a tangible body, but Paul is using soma metaphorically
Take 1 cor 15:37 Soma refers tothe body of a plant. and there are more usages.
Some posters here do not know how to recognize when a passage talks about things metaphorically. It is important tp see that.

Seriously ?

1 Cor. 15:39 —KJV
“All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.”

Its verse 39 the reference was to

and

1 Cor. 15:40–41 —KJV
“There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.”

how would the mention of physical bodies serve to make someone understand the resurection body is not physical

It makes no sense

and your concept is still that of a bodiless (spirit) body
I showed you a verse that said there was a body reserved for us in Heaven after this physical body is taken down like a tent. I did not see your response to that.

No such thing as a bodiless body. But the body of a spirit is different than the body of a human. I wonder why you would have a problem with their being a new kind of body in heaven that is not flesh and blood.

You said: how would the mention of physical bodies serve to make someone understand the resurection body is not physical
But I ask you, how are you going to get across the idea of a new and different body, if you do not reference the bodies we know and the differences between them?
 

TomFL

Well-known member
I showed you a verse that said there was a body reserved for us in Heaven after this physical body is taken down like a tent. I did not see your response to that.

No such thing as a bodiless body. But the body of a spirit is different than the body of a human. I wonder why you would have a problem with their being a new kind of body in heaven that is not flesh and blood.
Never saw it but what is the significance . It is a body

a body is physical that which casts a shadow as opposed to the shadow

that is right there is no such thing as a bodiless body because there is no such thing as a spirit body

It is a contradiction in terms

A spirit is immaterial

a body material
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
Never saw it but what is the significance . It is a body

a body is physical that which casts a shadow as opposed to the shadow

that is right there is no such thing as a bodiless body because there is no such thing as a spirit body

It is a contradiction in terms

A spirit is immaterial

a body material
My posts are not that long. I posted the whole verse. But I would like you to look at that, and if you do think John is talking about a different type body than when Jesus ascended, I'd be interested to have you comment on John's words.
1 John 3:2 Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
Never saw it but what is the significance . It is a body

a body is physical that which casts a shadow as opposed to the shadow

that is right there is no such thing as a bodiless body because there is no such thing as a spirit body

It is a contradiction in terms

A spirit is immaterial

a body material
Are you considering that we will be able to exist in the spiritual world and would need the appropriate body for that?
 

TomFL

Well-known member
My posts are not that long. I posted the whole verse. But I would like you to look at that, and if you do think John is talking about a different type body than when Jesus ascended, I'd be interested to have you comment on John's words.
1 John 3:2 Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.
I think it still refers to a body

The body is glorified but it is a body

further the bible speaks of the redemption of our body

of being clothed

likens the resurrections body to a house

2 Cor. 5:1 —KJV
“¶ For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.”

both physical
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
I think it still refers to a body

The body is glorified but it is a body

further the bible speaks of the redemption of our body

of being clothed

likens the resurrections body to a house

2 Cor. 5:1 —KJV
“¶ For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.”

both physical
Of course it refers to a body, why would you think I was arguing there was no body. And you are not really commenting on 2 Cor 5;1 as to the house eternal in the Heavens.
Maybe you could at a minimum agree that the heavenly body is not the refurbished old earthly body, since the verse says that one is dissolved. And then consider what type body is needed for an existence in the Spiritual realm. John was responding to people's concern about what kind of body they would get. He does not say, "It is the one you currently have, or even it is like the body we have"
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Of course it refers to a body, why would you think I was arguing there was no body. And you are not really commenting on 2 Cor 5;1 as to the house eternal in the Heavens.
Maybe you could at a minimum agree that the heavenly body is not the refurbished old earthly body, since the verse says that one is dissolved. And then consider what type body is needed for an existence in the Spiritual realm. John was responding to people's concern about what kind of body they would get. He does not say, "It is the one you currently have, or even it is like the body we have"
I don't know how many times it needs to be said but a body is material

that which cast a shadow as opposed to the shadow itself

The meaning of the words alone are contrary to your claim

as well as all the metaphors and attempts at explaining the resurrection body
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
I don't know how many times it needs to be said but a body is material

that which cast a shadow as opposed to the shadow itself

The meaning of the words alone are contrary to your claim

as well as all the metaphors and attempts at explaining the resurrection body
ok
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Why you are not going to address rebuttal

you will just post again saying you don't want to respond

Arminian and calvinits alike agree


Regeneration provides for new life
a purified heart
one becoming a new creation
is a spiritual resurrection
Remember all the quotes you blew off

Succinctly stated, to regenerate means “to impart life.” Regeneration is the act whereby God imparts life to the one who believes.

SCRIPTURES CONCERNING REGENERATION

Two basic passages of Scripture discuss regeneration as it pertains to the impartation of new life to a believer. John 3:3 (although not using the word regeneration) refers to regeneration as a “new birth.”
Moody handbook of theology

Regeneration is the divine action by which God renews the fallen creation so that it reflects his character.
For human beings, regeneration is the answer to the corruption of moral character caused by sin. It is essential for participation in the kingdom of God (John 3:3). At conversion, God grants the believer new life and a new identity in Christ. Lexham Survey Theology

REGENERATION
The term regeneration comes from a Greek word meaning “rebirth” or “new genesis.” The term signifies the renewal of the fallen creation through the redemptive work of Christ. The actual term “regeneration” is found only twice in Scripture, once for the renewal of all things (Mt 19:28; cf. Ac 3:21, “restoration of all things”) and once for the present inner spiritual renewal of believers. The same concept of renewal is expressed in the language of a new heart (e.g., Eze 36:26f), of a new birth (e.g., Jn 3:3, 7), of new persons through union with Christ in death and resurrection (e.g., Ro 6:4–8), and a new creation including persons (e.g., 2 Co 5:17) and the heavens and earth
NASB topical index

At the present time it is used in a far more restricted sense, to denote the divine act by which the sinner is endowed with new spiritual life, and by which the principle of that new life is first called into action.
Manual of Christian doctrine


REGENERATION


§ 1. Usage of the Word

The subjective change wrought in the soul by the grace of God, is variously designated in Scripture. It is called a new birth, a resurrection, a new life, a new creature,
Hodge systematic theology

etc
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Tom

You do realize that Paul said that to regenerate Believers don't you?
Perhaps you should have read the context

Eph. 3:1–10 —ESV
“¶ For this reason I, Paul, a prisoner of Christ Jesus on behalf of you Gentiles—
assuming that you have heard of the stewardship of God’s grace that was given to me for you,
how the mystery was made known to me by revelation, as I have written briefly.
When you read this, you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ,
which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit.
This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.
¶ Of this gospel I was made a minister according to the gift of God’s grace, which was given me by the working of his power.
To me, though I am the very least of all the saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,
and to bring to light for everyone what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God, who created all things, so that through the church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly places.”
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Perhaps you should have read the context

Eph. 3:1–10 —ESV
“¶ For this reason I, Paul, a prisoner of Christ Jesus on behalf of you Gentiles—
assuming that you have heard of the stewardship of God’s grace that was given to me for you,
how the mystery was made known to me by revelation, as I have written briefly.
When you read this, you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ,
which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit.
This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.
¶ Of this gospel I was made a minister according to the gift of God’s grace, which was given me by the working of his power.
To me, though I am the very least of all the saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,
and to bring to light for everyone what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God, who created all things, so that through the church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly places.”
Your point?
 
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