Why the Jews did not believe Jesus

DanRansom

Member
If they get saved they are not lost sheep

and Christ does not mention lost sheep
I see your God doesn't know who the sheep goats are beforehand.
You assume two things

One they are not God's sheep because of an established relationship with God i.e. Cornelius or Lydia

and if they got saved they were lost sheep previously

that's begging the question how one becomes God/Christs sheep

You really have to ask that question.

Isaiah 46:9-10 KJV
Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, [10] Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

If God can Declare the end from the begining. What is unknown to God.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
The chosen were saved, all jews were not chosen, have you not read Matt 22:14

You contradict yourself

stating

God made some people special Deut 7:6-7

. 6 For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth
You state they were all special

that is the Jews


i then asked you

And were these special people all saved ?

to which you replied
Of course. The Chosen in Christ ! He is their Saviour
You contradict yourself
 

TomFL

Well-known member
TomFL said:
If they get saved they are not lost sheep

and Christ does not mention lost sheep
I see your God doesn't know who the sheep goats are beforehand.

your statement is a non sequitur

The issue what was stated

My point is they may have been the Fathers sheep

Then the question is what is meant by lost sheep

sheep who no longer follow the Father ?

or sheep still following the Father but still in need of knowing Christ





You assume two things

One they are not God's sheep because of an established relationship with God i.e. Cornelius or Lydia

and if they got saved they were lost sheep previously

that's begging the question how one becomes God/Christs sheep

You really have to ask that question.

Isaiah 46:9-10 KJV
Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, [10] Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

If God can Declare the end from the begining. What is unknown to God.
I
??????

The issue was not about what God knows

Its is the about the previous status of those who got saved

I noted the possibility they were in fact God's sheep and actively following him but still needed Jesus to be saved

In that case would you call them lost sheep or just sheep
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
You contradict yourself

stating



that is the Jews


i then asked you

And were these special people all saved ?

to which you replied

You contradict yourself
You just cant grasp the truth. God made a special people Deut 7:6

6 For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

This contradicts your unlearned comment earlier !
 

TomFL

Well-known member
You just cant grasp the truth. God made a special people Deut 7:6

6 For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

This contradicts your unlearned comment earlier !
you claimed they were all saved

Hello

That verse refers to the nation of israel

They were not all saved
 

DanRansom

Member
your statement is a non sequitur

That couldn't be farther from the truth. As I will layout.

The issue what was stated

My point is they may have been the Fathers sheep

Then the question is what is meant by lost sheep

sheep who no longer follow the Father ?

or sheep still following the Father but still in need of knowing Christ

In the old testament the only sheep after Moses beforer Christ were the Isaelites.
Your Statement lumps past present and future all into one. Which makes your statement false.


John 10:16 KJV
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Christ's statement here shows that his sheep will here his voice. Billions of people weren't born yet. Did Christ not knowwho they were?
Old Testament People were saved on a promise of the coming of Christ. We are saved believing that Christ is the Son of God.

??????

The issue was not about what God knows

Its is the about the previous status of those who got saved

I noted the possibility they were in fact God's sheep and actively following him but still needed Jesus to be saved

In that case would you call them lost sheep or just sheep
Wrong again If God didn't know who were His sheep. Your statement would then be true. But God does know who His Sheep are and who will hear His voice. That means you are born a sheep or a goat. Unless you think God could be wrong.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
That couldn't be farther from the truth. As I will layout.

It does not appear you did so

Having stated

your statement is a non sequitur


The issue is
what was stated

My point is they may have been the Fathers sheep

Then the question is what is meant by lost sheep

sheep who no longer follow the Father ?

or sheep still following the Father but still in need of knowing Christ



Danransom
In the old testament the only sheep after Moses beforer Christ were the Isaelites.
Your Statement lumps past present and future all into one. Which makes your statement false.

First i stated nothing at all about past , present and future

i was speaking of people at that time

Danransom
John 10:16 KJV
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Christ's statement here shows that his sheep will here his voice. Billions of people weren't born yet. Did Christ not know ho they were?
Old Testament People were saved on a promise of the coming of Christ. We are saved believing that Christ is the Son of God.

Where doers Christ mention billions of people not yet born

you are assuming this







Danransom
Wrong again If God didn't know who were His sheep. Your statement would then be true. But God does know who His Sheep are and who will hear His voice. That means you are born a sheep or a goat. Unless you think God could be wrong.

This is just bad logic

Because God knows the future does not necessitate men are born sheep

That is just begging the question

Because one become a follower of Christ in the future does that mean he must be born a follower of Christ

PS you never addressed my question about the meaning of a lost sheep
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
dan

Wrong again If God didn't know who were His sheep. Your statement would then be true. But God does know who His Sheep are and who will hear His voice. That means you are born a sheep or a goat. Unless you think God could be wrong.

Exactly, all the Sheep are born lost Sheep, but nevertheless they were set apart for God from their mothers womb like Paul says of himself Gal 1:15

But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,

Paul was a Sheep of Christ when he was persecuting the church in unbelief. He didnt know it at the time. He was one of the Sheep Christ gave His Life for. Cp Jn 10:11

11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

Gal 2:20


20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Christ gave His Life for the Sheep because they were unbelieving sinners, it is really elementary doctrine.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
dan



Exactly, all the Sheep are born lost Sheep, but nevertheless they were set apart for God from their mothers womb like Paul says of himself Gal 1:15

But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,

Paul was a Sheep of Christ when he was persecuting the church in unbelief. He didnt know it at the time. He was one of the Sheep Christ gave His Life for. Cp Jn 10:11

11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

Gal 2:20


20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Christ gave His Life for the Sheep because they were unbelieving sinners, it is really elementary doctrine.
Its still bad logic

God's knowing what you will be in trhe future is no evidence you are born that

i.e. God's knowing you will be a follower of Christ in the future

is not evidence you are born a follower
 

Howie

Well-known member
Seals men in Christ through the holy Spirit
That's an out of context answer, Tom.

You have continually danced around answering my question.

Why won't you admit that you believe that while you were dead in sin and trespass, you made yourself alive and gave yourself the ability to believe, rejecting Paul's statement that the unregenerate many cannot understand spiritual things?
 

TomFL

Well-known member
That's an out of context answer, Tom.

You have continually danced around answering my question.

Why won't you admit that you believe that while you were dead in sin and trespass, you made yourself alive and gave yourself the ability to believe, rejecting Paul's statement that the unregenerate many cannot understand spiritual things?
You are very confused

i do not think I made myself alive

God does that as I already told you

Nor do I believe I gave myself ability to believe.

God did that as well
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Back at ya.

And he predestined all of that before the world began, correct? ( cf Rom 8:29-30; Eph 1:3ff)
Rom 8:28-30

concerns those who God knew formerly and had loved God

They were predestined to be conformed to the image of the son

Eph 1:3 concern the faithful in Christ i.e. the church

Those in the church are predestined to be adopted as sons and to be holy and blameless

before God in love
 
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