Harel13
Active member
I don't think that we're waiting for the coming of the same messiah.
Why will I be going to hell?
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He came. His name is Jesus.
Harel13
Active member
Yes, I've gathered that already. So, atonement is impossible any other way?
Yes.
Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.
Harel13
Active member
Nope. Try again.
I don't have to try again....You simply don't recognize the Messiah.
Harel13
Active member
Right, right...well, maybe you missed my OP. I am well aware you folks think I'm an ignorant Orthodox Jew who will be going to hell. I am not interested in hearing that again and again. It's an unnecessary repetition and really, a waste of both of our time.
No, I read it.
You may want to knock that chip off of your shoulder. I have never called you ignorant.
Dant01
Active member
.
This comment is far afield.
Jewish authors wrote the Old Testament. It's curious to me why they hung out their
failures, their mistakes, and their dirty laundry for all the world to see instead of
practicing a bit of culture canceling to exclude it and show only the good side of
their coin instead of both sides.
However; this is fortunate for Christians because according to 2Tim 3:16 and 1Cor
10:1-12, the Jews' history is useful to avoid falling prey to Sir Winston Churchill's
prediction that those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
_
This comment is far afield.
Jewish authors wrote the Old Testament. It's curious to me why they hung out their
failures, their mistakes, and their dirty laundry for all the world to see instead of
practicing a bit of culture canceling to exclude it and show only the good side of
their coin instead of both sides.
However; this is fortunate for Christians because according to 2Tim 3:16 and 1Cor
10:1-12, the Jews' history is useful to avoid falling prey to Sir Winston Churchill's
prediction that those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
_
Interesting. Why do you think this? The descriptions I see in the Hebrew scriptures seem to be effectively much the same as those in the Christian texts as well. They're both written by observant Jews so what am I missing?
PeanutGallery
Well-known member
No temple, no animal sacrifices, no sin offerings?
Harel13
Active member
Right, sorry. Thought you insinuated that when you said I missed your messiah.
Harel13
Active member
Right, sorry. Thought you insinuated that when you said I missed your messiah.
SDAchristian
Well-known member
Prologue:
AV Dt 32:22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.
AV Ps 23:4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou [art] with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.
"why exactly I will be going to hell.", I believe you are confused on the definition of "hell", even as "an Orthodox Jew", and it's applications.
The first death("the shadow of death") as "hell" and second death as "hell" are distinct and different.
AV 2Sa 7:12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.
AV Ac 13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:
If the Messiah's advent is delayed, "thou shalt sleep with thy fathers", as the first death as sleep in "hell", will be fulfilled as it did for David.
So are they referring to the death of your body of flesh, first death as "hell" ???
AV Mal 3:18-4:3 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not. 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. 2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. 3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do [this], saith the LORD of hosts.
AV Mt 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Or second death as "hell" of "both soul and body" ???
Yours in Christ, Michael
AV Dt 32:22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.
AV Ps 23:4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou [art] with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.
AV Re 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
"why exactly I will be going to hell.", I believe you are confused on the definition of "hell", even as "an Orthodox Jew", and it's applications.
The first death("the shadow of death") as "hell" and second death as "hell" are distinct and different.
AV 2Sa 7:12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.
AV Ac 13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:
If the Messiah's advent is delayed, "thou shalt sleep with thy fathers", as the first death as sleep in "hell", will be fulfilled as it did for David.
So are they referring to the death of your body of flesh, first death as "hell" ???
AV Mal 3:18-4:3 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not. 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. 2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. 3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do [this], saith the LORD of hosts.
AV Mt 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Or second death as "hell" of "both soul and body" ???
Yours in Christ, Michael
Theo1689
Well-known member
Okay... I have nothing but respect for Jews. As you may know, there is a huge amount of overlap in our Bibles. And one of my favourite podcasters is Ben Shapiro.
The answer should be pretty uniform.
If you don't accept Christ as your Savior and atoning sacrifice before die, then you will die in your sins. As the Bible teaches, the blood of bulls and goats cannot take away sins:
Heb. 10:4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
We believe the Jewish sacrifice was simply a foreshadowing of Christ's ultimate atoning sacrifice. And even if your sins could be taken away by the blood of bulls and goats, Jews have been unable to perform this sacrifice for almost 2000 years.
Harel13
Active member
Well-said. Want to start a different thread on the subject?
Harel13
Active member
Okay, here are a few questions:
1. What is the definition of the messiah per Jewish sources?
2. What is the definition of the messiah per Christian sources?
3. Do most Christians agree with the definition of the messiah per Christian sources?
4. Why do you think that the Christian texts were authored by "observant Jews"?
Harel13
Active member
You are probably aware that the Jewish definition of "hell" is different than the typical Christian one. When I say "hell" in this thread, I am merely quoting the many members of this site who have told me that that's where I'll be going, as long as I continue in life as an Orthodox Jew who completely rejects Jesus and any form of Christianity (which is what I plan on doing).
*Shrug* I made this thread so that you could tell me, and more importantly, what is the reason that I will receive this hell. If you have no idea, then we can leave it at that.
Harel13
Active member
I have respect for Jews as well. We have that in common.
Indeed, it has been pretty uniform, so far, so kudos to you guys. Perhaps there's hope for Christian unity yet.
Okay, and if I told you that there are other ways to atone for sin, besides sacrifices, what would you say?
Theo1689
Well-known member
I have respect for Jews as well. We have that in common.
Well, it would have been more impressive if you had reciprocated by saying you had respect for Christians...
Two things:
1) The New Testament would disagree with you;
2) I would say that your understanding was based on a need for the Jews to find an alternative form of atonement after the destruction of the Temple.
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