Why will I be going to hell?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Harel13

Active member
Well, it would have been more impressive if you had reciprocated by saying you had respect for Christians...
It would, but unfortunately I don't have uniform respect for Christians. I have respect for those that respect me and my beliefs. So far, online, I haven't met a whole lot of them.

Two things:

1) The New Testament would disagree with you;

2) I would say that your understanding was based on a need for the Jews to find an alternative form of atonement after the destruction of the Temple.
What if I told you I could bring verses from the Bible?
 

Harel13

Active member
I would point out that if you had any, you would have presented them already.
It wasn't really the topic of the thread, but eh, may as well give it a shot.

A few examples:

Numbers 17:11-12:

"Then Moses said to Aaron, “Take the fire pan, and put on it fire from the altar. Add incense and take it quickly to the community and make expiation for them. For wrath has gone forth from the LORD: the plague has begun!” Aaron took it, as Moses had ordered, and ran to the midst of the congregation, where the plague had begun among the people. He put on the incense and made expiation for the people."

Hoshea 14:3-4:

"Return, O Israel, to the LORD your God, for you have fallen because of your sin. Take words with you and return to the LORD. Say to Him: “Forgive all guilt and accept what is good; instead of bulls we will pay [The offering of] our lips."

Samuel 2:12:13:

"David said to Nathan, “I stand guilty before the LORD!” And Nathan replied to David, “The LORD has remitted your sin; you shall not die."
 

Iconoclast

Active member
Thanks, but I'm not looking for how to prevent it. I plan on being an Orthodox Jew until my dying breath. What are your thoughts on the actual question in my OP?
You are on your way to Hell because you have no propitiation for your sins and no High Priest to offer the once for all time sacrifice.
At the White Throne judgment you would have to be sinlessly perfect.
You are not.I am not.
All sin will be punished in the sinner or the Divine Substitute.
Jesus is the only acceptable substitute.
Your rituals have no saving efficacy.
I would urge you to seek the truth as it is in Jesus.
If not you will remain in your dead orthodox faith.
 

Harel13

Active member
You are on your way to Hell because you have no propitiation for your sins and no High Priest to offer the once for all time sacrifice.
I can manage without a high priest.
See the second and third examples here:
It wasn't really the topic of the thread, but eh, may as well give it a shot.

A few examples:

Numbers 17:11-12:

"Then Moses said to Aaron, “Take the fire pan, and put on it fire from the altar. Add incense and take it quickly to the community and make expiation for them. For wrath has gone forth from the LORD: the plague has begun!” Aaron took it, as Moses had ordered, and ran to the midst of the congregation, where the plague had begun among the people. He put on the incense and made expiation for the people."

Hoshea 14:3-4:

"Return, O Israel, to the LORD your God, for you have fallen because of your sin. Take words with you and return to the LORD. Say to Him: “Forgive all guilt and accept what is good; instead of bulls we will pay [The offering of] our lips."

Samuel 2:12:13:

"David said to Nathan, “I stand guilty before the LORD!” And Nathan replied to David, “The LORD has remitted your sin; you shall not die."
You are not.I am not
Hey now, speak for yourself.
If not you will remain in your dead orthodox faith.
Actually, "orthodox" is not my faith. Judaism is.
 

Iconoclast

Active member
I can manage without a high priest.
See the second and third examples here:


Hey now, speak for yourself.

Actually, "orthodox" is not my faith. Judaism is.
It does not save. Only Jesus the Great Shepherd of the elect sheep saves.Read Ezk34.
 

SDAchristian

Well-known member
Prologue:
AV Ps 73:17 Until I went into the sanctuary of God; [then] understood I their end.
AV 2Th 3:2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all [men] have not faith.
*Shrug* I made this thread so that you could tell me, and more importantly, what is the reason that I will receive this hell. If you have no idea, then we can leave it at that.
Then others are in control of your faith understanding, that G-D judges ???

PS: Please do not undermine G-D's judgment with human judgment.

Yours in Christ, Michael
 

Harel13

Active member
Then others are in control of your faith understanding, that G-D judges ???
Well, I certainly never needed Christians to know that God judges, so no, that can't be it.
This is merely a thread to better understand why multiple Christian members of this site believe I will be going to hell.
 

4Him

Administrator
Staff member
Well, I certainly never needed Christians to know that God judges, so no, that can't be it.
This is merely a thread to better understand why multiple Christian members of this site believe I will be going to hell.

Since you have said you have no respect for Christians, why do you care and why should anyone entertain you on this subject?
 

Iconoclast

Active member
What doesn't save?

I don't see what this has to do with anything.
I know you do not see it Harel13.
that is why I offered it to you.
17 times God says He will seek and save His sheep

Jesus was identified as this Shepherd, coming to seek and save the lost.lk19, jn 10.
I let you know.If you ignore it, these will be why you go to hell.
Harel, if we lived before the cross and I asked you could I go to heaven if I worshipped molech, instead of the God of Deut.6:4...what would you tell me?
.
 

Harel13

Active member
Since you have said you have no respect for Christians
I never said that. I said I don't have uniform respect for Christians. It's a case-by-case basis.
why do you care
It interests me. Is that wrong? Could be.
why should anyone entertain you on this subject?
Certainly no one has to, though evidently not everyone agrees with you on this point. If no one had replied to this thread, I would have left the matter alone.
 

Harel13

Active member
I let you know.If you ignore it, these will be why you go to hell.
So what you're saying is that the reason I will be going to hell is because I do not understand Eze. 34 the way you want me to understand it? Is that it?
Harel, if we lived before the cross and I asked you could I go to heaven if I worshipped molech, instead of the God of Deut.6:4...what would you tell me?
Could you? Theoretically it might be possible. I am not the Divine Judge. It would be up to Him to decide.
 

4Him

Administrator
Staff member
I never said that. I said I don't have uniform respect for Christians. It's a case-by-case basis.

Yet you were mighty quick to disrespect me by saying I think you're ignorant so I'm doubting your case by case basis and seeing it's simply more of a uniform disrespect.
It interests me. Is that wrong? Could be.

Why does it interest you? I could see if you respected the opinions of those that disagree with you, but we know that isn't the case....so I'm curious as to why you actually care if someone thinks you're going to hell.
Certainly no one has to, though evidently not everyone agrees with you on this point.

Christians do. Keep in mind, not everyone posting on this board or even in this thread is a Christian.
If no one had replied to this thread, I would have left the matter alone.

Which brings me back to why do you actually care?
 

Harel13

Active member
Yet you were mighty quick to disrespect me by saying I think you're ignorant so I'm doubting your case by case basis and seeing it's simply more of a uniform disrespect
Doubt away, then.

but we know that isn't the case.
I don't know who this "we" is. You don't know me. I made a point about what I think about Christians. You have no idea what I think about every single subject in the world and every sort of person in the world. I don't know why you think it is unreasonable that a person, myself in this case, might jump the gun and answer too quickly and too sarcastically sometimes, considering this person is only human, and moreover the general experience on this site has been that many of the members here consider that person to be ignorant of reality as Christians typically see it.

If this is truly unreasonable in your view, say so.

I'm curious as to why you actually care if someone thinks you're going to hell
As I said, I don't care if someone says I'm going to hell. I have an occasional interest in Christianity and am aware that various denominations have various views, and thought it would be interesting to see if there was a spectrum-wide agreement on this particular subject or not.

Christians do. Keep in mind, not everyone posting on this board or even in this thread is a Christian.
Wait, so everyone who has replied to my question so far is not a Christian? Or is this "Christian" per the CARM definition, which excludes "cults"?

Which brings me back to why do you actually care?
I answered that. I don't care. I'm merely interested. Again, is that wrong? Is it impossible to conceive that a person would merely be interested in a certain subject? Here's another real example about myself: I enjoy drawing dragons. They excite my imagination, though I know they're not real. I don't care that they aren't real, I still like drawing them.
 

Iconoclast

Active member
So what you're saying is that the reason I will be going to hell is because I do not understand Eze. 34 the way you want me to understand it? Is that it?

Could you? Theoretically it might be possible. I am not the Divine Judge. It would be up to Him to decide.
The reason you will go.to.hell is you are not sinless.
I clearly said this several times.
You will not be found perfect.
That you do not understand Ezk.34 compounds the issue.
I have offered you the way to not experience the wrath of God to the full.
Do not twist my words or my motives Harel.
 

Dizerner

Well-known member
It wasn't really the topic of the thread, but eh, may as well give it a shot.

A few examples:

Numbers 17:11-12:

"Then Moses said to Aaron, “Take the fire pan, and put on it fire from the altar. Add incense and take it quickly to the community and make expiation for them. For wrath has gone forth from the LORD: the plague has begun!” Aaron took it, as Moses had ordered, and ran to the midst of the congregation, where the plague had begun among the people. He put on the incense and made expiation for the people."

Hoshea 14:3-4:

"Return, O Israel, to the LORD your God, for you have fallen because of your sin. Take words with you and return to the LORD. Say to Him: “Forgive all guilt and accept what is good; instead of bulls we will pay [The offering of] our lips."

Samuel 2:12:13:

"David said to Nathan, “I stand guilty before the LORD!” And Nathan replied to David, “The LORD has remitted your sin; you shall not die."

I just want to say that I'm really glad you inquired of Christians about what they believe, and they should show love to you and not give you a hard time for it.

What we should be doing here as Christians is interacting with you with sincere care in the hopes that the Holy Spirit would communicate new truths to you.

I respect your love and respect for the Scriptures here. I think even the OT admits it's own way of atonement is just symbolic, which is why the prophets often talked about heart sincerity over just performing rituals.

The question that would be really interesting then, would be what does an animal being killed stand for? What does a snake on a pole stand for? When God said to Abraham to sacrifice his son on an altar on that mountain, but Abraham said "God, himself, will provide the lamb my son," what could possibly be that lamb that God provides?

We do see intercession and repentance in the OT bringing people the effects of atonement as well as obedience to the symbolic temple imagery. However, I must insist that this imagery was meant to represent what the heart of atonement really means and where it really comes from—that something must die for you because you did something wrong.

This is the fundamental idea we want to see being communicated here, and the source from which we would apply the atonement that comes from intercession or repentance, because no human is holy enough to be as perfect as God is or to attain through works, performance or effort to the standard of holiness God to remain pure and perfect would and should require.

15 Behold, He putteth no trust in His holy ones; yea, the heavens are not clean in His sight.
16 How much less one that is abominable and impure, man who drinketh iniquity like water! (Job 15:15-16 JPS)

4 How then can man be just with God? Or how can he be clean that is born of a woman?
5 Behold, even the moon hath no brightness, and the stars are not pure in His sight;
6 How much less man, that is a worm! and the son of man, that is a maggot! (Job 25:4-6 JPS)

Now let's just say, theoretically—as a thought experiment—if we were logically to deduce what lamb God might provide or what methods or means a perfectly holy God could truly and completely forgive sins, without violating his own standard of perfection even one tiny bit... what might that look like or manifest as.

We might speculate that God, himself, would have to do something for the man that the man cannot do for himself.

5 But he was wounded because of our transgressions, he was crushed because of our iniquities: the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his stripes we were healed.
6 All we like sheep did go astray, we turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath made to light on him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed, though he humbled himself and opened not his mouth; as a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and as a sheep that before her shearers is dumb; yea, he opened not his mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away, and with his generation who did reason? for he was cut off out of the land of the living, for the transgression of my people to whom the stroke was due.
(Isa 53:5-8 JPS)

Who was this man?

Was he Moses?

Was Moses crushed for the iniquities of Israel, did the LORD cause the transgressions of all Israel to fall on Moses?

Was Moses oppressed and humbled and never opened his mouth?

I love Moses—and respect him as the greatest prophet of the OT—but Moses did "open his mouth" and complain sometimes, and there is no place Moses bore the true punishment all Israel deserved.

We can go through the OT and find no one who was truly "cut off from the land of the living for the transgression of God's people." Many sophisticated Jewish commentators have speculated that it might mean God's own people were punished for their sins, but the language here is very clear that someone else is taking the punishment, not Israel.

10 Yet it pleased the LORD to crush him by disease; to see if his soul would offer itself in restitution, that he might see his seed, prolong his days, and that the purpose of the LORD might prosper by his hand:
11 Of the travail of his soul he shall see to the full, even My servant, who by his knowledge did justify the Righteous One to the many, and their iniquities he did bear. (Isa 53:10-11 JPS)

This we see as the heart of the idea of what "atonement" truly means and from whence all its power and extensions are derived, the idea of a righteous man standing in and taking what an unrighteous man deserves... the just for the unjust, to bring the sinner to God.

And the question that should haunt anyone that truly respects the Tanach, is...

Who was this righteous person that was punished with the sins of Israel?

Who was the lamb of God?
 

1Thess521

Well-known member
For those who don't know, I'm an Orthodox Jew (you can check it out on my profile). Many a member here has informed me over the last two years that I will be going to hell. It has occurred to me that as Christians do not agree on many matters (as they say, "two Christians, thirty-thousand opinions"), perhaps they also do not agree on why exactly I will be going to hell.

So please, lay it on me: Do Christians who believe this agree on the exact reasoning? And if not, what arguments does one denomination have over the views of other denominations?

Have a good weekend, by the way.
Why will some sinners end up in Hell?
Some sinners will go to Hell because that is the just punishment for their sins.

Why will some sinners NOT end up in Hell?
Some people will NOT go to Hell because SomeOne else paid the penalty for their sins.

Either the sinner will pay the penalty for their sins: or SomeOne else will (or did).
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
For those who don't know, I'm an Orthodox Jew (you can check it out on my profile). Many a member here has informed me over the last two years that I will be going to hell. It has occurred to me that as Christians do not agree on many matters (as they say, "two Christians, thirty-thousand opinions"), perhaps they also do not agree on why exactly I will be going to hell.

So please, lay it on me: Do Christians who believe this agree on the exact reasoning? And if not, what arguments does one denomination have over the views of other denominations?

Have a good weekend, by the way.

The truth is that they will eventually insist that you will be going to never ending torment in Hell for refusing to accept their absurd confirmation bias routines. That's almost always how it works. If you don't participate in their insanity you deserve to be fried. No, they don't see their own problem and they won't either.
 

4Him

Administrator
Staff member
Doubt away, then.

Because of your post, I do.
I don't know who this "we" is. You don't know me.

And you don't know ME, yet judged me.
I made a point about what I think about Christians.

Oh, yes you did.
You have no idea what I think about every single subject in the world and every sort of person in the world.

Nor do I want to know.
I don't know why you think it is unreasonable that a person, myself in this case, might jump the gun and answer too quickly and too sarcastically sometimes, considering this person is only human, and moreover the general experience on this site has been that many of the members here consider that person to be ignorant of reality as Christians typically see it.

If this is truly unreasonable in your view, say so.

I asked a question, no need for the dissertation.

As I said, I don't care if someone says I'm going to hell.

Apparently you do.
Wait, so everyone who has replied to my question so far is not a Christian?

I didn't say that. Pay attention.
Or is this "Christian" per the CARM definition, which excludes "cults"?

"Cults" aren't Christian.
I answered that. I don't care.

Then you wouldn't have asked.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top