Why would an atheist care who Heli was, enough to spend hours upon hours and days upon days discussing him?

SteveB

Well-known member
He certainly did. He said it about the relationship between Jesus and Joseph, and he said it to get around the claim of a virgin birth:

23 Jesus, when he began his ministry, was about thirty years of age, being the son (as was supposed) of Joseph

And then he told us of the relationship between Joseph and Heli, and when he did that he did NOT say Enomizeto.

Joseph, the son of Heli,


Ignore what? We discussed the Enomizeto issue in depth.

Anyone can find the five posts where I discussed it here: https://forums.carm.org/search/96418/?q=Enomizeto&c[users]=The+Pixie&o=date

You are WRONG that I decided to ignore it. You are WRONG that Enomizeto refers to the relationship between Joseph and Heli. You are WRONG that Heli was the father of Mary.


And I can grind that axe because I am right, and you are WRONG.


Not really, it is pretty straightforward. Luke used it about the relationship between Jesus and Joseph, to allow for the virgin birth.

You want to pretend that instead it is about the relationship between Heli and Joseph. You know it does not work - that is why you cannot quote the text. You are WRONG.

But you have to keep up the pretence to save your precious pride.


Still grinding it, Steve.
Just remember....

You're doing this so you can send yourself to an eternity of misery and agony and anguish for absolutely no other reason than you are deliberately choosing to.

Demonstrating exactly what Jesus said.

Joh 3:18-21 WEB 18 He who believes in him is not judged. He who doesn’t believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only born Son of God. 19 This is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light, for their works were evil. 20 For everyone who does evil hates the light and doesn’t come to the light, lest his works would be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his works may be revealed, that they have been done in God.”

Hope you're happy with your choice.
 

The Pixie

Well-known member
Just remember....

You're doing this so you can send yourself to an eternity of misery and agony and anguish for absolutely no other reason than you are deliberately choosing to.
...
The arrogance that associates proving you wrong with being punished with "an eternity of misery and agony and anguish" is astounding.

Christians say pride is a sin, but they surely have it in abundance.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
The arrogance that associates proving you wrong with being punished with "an eternity of misery and agony and anguish" is astounding.

Christians say pride is a sin, but they surely have it in abundance.
What do you think pride and arrogance actually are?

Perhaps you should spend the rest of the week doing a word study, so you can learn before you use man's ideas to accuse others of your own sin.

Here, let me help.



 

The Pixie

Well-known member
What do you think pride and arrogance actually are?
Are you struggling here, Steve? Let me help you.

Pride is too high an opinion of your own ability or worth, the belief that you are better than others. It is especially considered a sin in the Bible because of the sense that you might think yourself to be as great as God.

The Bible advocates humility, which is the opposite of pride. And the opposite of what we see in most Christians. You may well object that you do not see much humility in my posts, and that would be true, but I do not profess to follow a religion that values humility and that considers sin to be the worst of the "seven deadly sins".

When I read your posts I see them full of pride in that you are so certain you are right. You present your unsupported opinions as facts. And, of course, are unable to admit you are wrong, even about the most trivial of issues. That you still cannot admit you were wrong when you said positrons bounce off electrons when you claim college-level education in physics is, to my mind, indicative of great pride.

I hope this helps.

Perhaps you should spend the rest of the week doing a word study, so you can learn before you use man's ideas to accuse others of your own sin.
Given how often you tell me I am going to "an eternity of misery and agony and anguish" I think maybe you need to take a look in the mirror, Steve.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Are you struggling here, Steve? Let me help you.

Pride is too high an opinion of your own ability or worth, the belief that you are better than others. It is especially considered a sin in the Bible because of the sense that you might think yourself to be as great as God.
Indeed...
This sounds like you.
Based entirely on what you post, you clearly have an extremely high opinion of yourself.
Based entirely on what you post, you have entirely too high an estimation that you're better than others. Especially people who are following Jesus.



The Bible advocates humility, which is the opposite of pride. And the opposite of what we see in most Christians. You may well object that you do not see much humility in my posts, and that would be true, but I do not profess to follow a religion that values humility and that considers sin to be the worst of the "seven deadly sins".
So, because you lack humility, and humility is the opposite of pride, you're making it clear that you are proud.
Congratulations!
Thank you for clarifying your position.

When I read your posts I see them full of pride in that you are so certain you are right.
Well, as you're so proud, and it's written that what you accuse others of, you're guilty of yourself ....
Thank you for clarifying your position.

You present your unsupported opinions as facts.
I present the truth.
It's incumbent on you to verify/corroborate them.

And, of course, are unable to admit you are wrong, even about the most trivial of issues.
You clearly don't read. Definitely not for the purpose of understanding.
The things that actually matter, I've repeatedly admitted that I'm wrong.

You on the other hand have never actually admitted to being wrong, on the most important matter.
Which is further demonstration that you have the deadliest form of pride.
The refusal to engage YHVH on his terms because you have convinced yourself that he can't be who he claims to be in the bible.
That you still cannot admit you were wrong when you said positrons bounce off electrons when you claim college-level education in physics is, to my mind, indicative of great pride.
Never went back and read the parts of that thread where I did in fact deal with that I see.
Congratulations. Further demonstrating that the only goal you have is to win, at all cost.

I hope this helps.


Given how often you tell me I am going to "an eternity of misery and agony and anguish" I think maybe you need to take a look in the mirror, Steve.
I do. Daily.
I see the mirror of God's word and the mirror of God himself in prayer.

Something you should engage in.
 

The Pixie

Well-known member
Indeed...
This sounds like you.
Based entirely on what you post, you clearly have an extremely high opinion of yourself.
Maybe. But I do not profess to follow a religion that considers pride to be the worst o the seven deadly sins. You do.

Based entirely on what you post, you have entirely too high an estimation that you're better than others. Especially people who are following Jesus.
I do not think I am better than everyone else, and I do not think I am better than all Christians.

I do think I am better than certain Christians...

So, because you lack humility, and humility is the opposite of pride, you're making it clear that you are proud.
Congratulations!
Thank you for clarifying your position.
I have never said otherwise. But I can at least admit when I am wrong. I do have that much humility.

You cannot.

I present the truth.
No, Steve. You present your opinion.

You arrogantly present it as fact as "the truth", such is your pride. And when you are shown to be wrong, you refuse to admit it.

It's incumbent on you to verify/corroborate them.
And I frequently do.

Remember the discussion about positrons? I proved you were wrong.

Remember the discussion about the article that discussed global flooding? I proved it supported my view of flooding up to modern sea levels subsequent to glaciers melting, and refuted your position of a global flood covering mountains.

You clearly don't read. Definitely not for the purpose of understanding.
The things that actually matter, I've repeatedly admitted that I'm wrong.
Show me one instance of you admitting you were wrong to an atheist.

I do not doubt you can admit you were wrong to a Christian, but never an atheist. So here is your chance to prove me wrong Steve.

You on the other hand have never actually admitted to being wrong, on the most important matter.
If you ever supported your opinions with evidence, perhaps I would. So far that has not happened. So far, it is just your supported opinion presented as though they are "the truth".
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Maybe. But I do not profess to follow a religion that considers pride to be the worst o the seven deadly sins. You do.
Your ongoing problem here is that you have absolutely no clue what you're talking about.
According to Jeremiah, and 1 & 2 Corinthians, we who boast.... we boast in the cross of Jesus.
Jer 9:23-24 WEB 23 Yahweh says, “Don’t let the wise man glory in his wisdom. Don’t let the mighty man glory in his might. Don’t let the rich man glory in his riches. 24 But let him who glories glory in this, that he has understanding, and knows me, that I am Yahweh who exercises loving kindness, justice, and righteousness in the earth, for I delight in these things,” says Yahweh.

There's references in Galatians and elsewhere.
So, before you try that, just read the bible for the purpose of understanding and learning.




I do not think I am better than everyone else, and I do not think I am better than all Christians.
Yeah, I find that ironically hilarious. You've been quite malicious towards God, the bible and people who believe him.
So spare me that line.
I do think I am better than certain Christians...
Bingo.
Anyone who doesn't agree with you, and you think is inferior to you.... you despise.
Setting yourself up as superior to them.
I have never said otherwise. But I can at least admit when I am wrong. I do have that much humility.
Then repent and believe the gospel.
There's only one thing that matters.
Your eternal state before God.
You cannot.
There's only one thing that matters here.... my state before God in Christ.
Your ongoing malevolence towards the gospel is a you thing.

No, Steve. You present your opinion.
That is YOUR opinion.
Had you actually bothered reading the bible for the purpose of understanding and learning, and then obeyed the gospel, you'd know what the truth is.

You arrogantly present it as fact as "the truth", such is your pride. And when you are shown to be wrong, you refuse to admit it.
I see you never actually did the word search I invited you to.
Arrogance is trusting one's self more than is appropriate.
I don't trust myself at all.
I trust in Jesus and YHVH explicitly and implicitly. Explicitly because I have learned that YHVH is the only one who actually knows what is going to happen and is presently happening.

And I frequently do.
Obviously not.

Remember the discussion about positrons? I proved you were wrong.
Sounds like you have an ego problem with arrogance.
It's actually quite educational...
You accuse me of being arrogant and here you are fighting to demonstrate your own arrogance.


Remember the discussion about the article that discussed global flooding? I proved it supported my view of flooding up to modern sea levels subsequent to glaciers melting, and refuted your position of a global flood covering mountains.
Further demonstrating your own arrogance.

Show me one instance of you admitting you were wrong to an atheist.
Here, allow me to help you with your beliefs.
🎻
I think anyone who actually wants to be a fool should be allowed to enjoy it.
Not sure why they'd like their folly....

I do not doubt you can admit you were wrong to a Christian, but never an atheist. So here is your chance to prove me wrong Steve.
I'm not the one who keeps saying they're right, while having the awareness that their folly will destroy them, while being convinced of their rightness.
If you ever supported your opinions with evidence, perhaps I would.
The key term here....
Perhaps.
Being evidence that you would refuse solely on the grounds that you would rather perish than to enjoy a right relationship with the Creator of the cosmos.

So far that has not happened.
That's simply because you don't actually want to know the truth.
If you were actually a lover of truth, you would have stopped the arguing years ago.
You would have stopped hiding behind excuses and using me as your justification to your arrogance and come to Jesus for yourself and receive the evidence he's offering everyone who comes to him.
So far, it is just your supported opinion presented as though they are "the truth".
Truth doesn't require your permission to be as it is.

Jesus said that unless we come to him as little children, we will by no means enter the Kingdom of God.

How fragile is your ego?
 

The Pixie

Well-known member
Your ongoing problem here is that you have absolutely no clue what you're talking about.
In your opinion, anyway. And in SteveB's world, SteveB's opinion is "the truth"!

According to Jeremiah, and 1 & 2 Corinthians, we who boast.... we boast in the cross of Jesus.
I am going to take a wild guess here and say that the authors of those works have never met you.

Yeah, I find that ironically hilarious. You've been quite malicious towards God, the bible and people who believe him.
You mean I disagree with you.

This is a forum where we discuss if Christianity is true. I take the position that it is not. Therefore, when I post here my posts are arguing against Christianity.

If you find that situation "ironically hilarious" that would be because you have missed the point of the forum.

Bingo.
Anyone who doesn't agree with you, and you think is inferior to you.... you despise.
Setting yourself up as superior to them.
No, Steve, that is not true.

I certainly think myself superior to anyone claiming to have a college education in physics, but who still cannot admit he was wrong to say positrons bounce off electrons.

"This results in a few limitations on the brain, kidneys, bladder (they make us go to the bathroom before we get on the table), and the mouth.
The positrons bounce off the electrons in the body's cells and while there are many non-coincidental collisions, only the 180° ones are counted."

Anyone posting that nonsense - sure I feel superior to him! But not to most people I disagree with.

It just feels that way to you because I feel superior to you, and that is all that matters in your world.

Bingo.
Anyone who doesn't agree with you, and you think is inferior to you.... you despise.
Setting yourself up as superior to them.
And yet I have NEVER told anyone I disagree with that they will suffer because they disagree with me,

"You're doing this so you can send yourself to an eternity of misery and agony and anguish for absolutely no other reason than you are deliberately choosing to."

Maybe you need to look in the mirror? Oh, right, you are so arrogantly certain you are right that you excuse your threats as "the truth".

Then repent and believe the gospel.
Why would I do that if I do not think it is true?

You assume it is true. You present it as fact. But that is just your arrogance speaking. It is just your opinion, supported by nothing more than the assumption it is true.

There's only one thing that matters here.... my state before God in Christ.
What matters more than that is whether Christianity is true. If not, this is irrelevant.

That is YOUR opinion.
Absolutely. And I can admit that.

Can you admit that your view on Christianity is YOUR opinion?

Of course not! So who has more humility Steve? The guy who admits he could be wrong? Or the guy who still will not admit he was wrong about positrons?

Had you actually bothered reading the bible for the purpose of understanding and learning, and then obeyed the gospel, you'd know what the truth is.
Again, you arrogantly assume your opinion is fact.

I have read (much of) the Bible for the purpose of understanding and learning. But that is not what you mean, is it? You mean reading it and interpreting it according to SteveB's opinion on how it should be read and interpreted, because in SteveB's world SteveB's opinion on how it should be read and interpreted is "the truth".

I see you never actually did the word search I invited you to.
Arrogance is trusting one's self more than is appropriate.
How often have you posted done a google search and just posted the linked articles without bothering to read them? You just assume the articles must agree with you, because... pride.

Remember the article about sea levels rising due to glaciers from the last ice age melting. What it actually said:

For Jo Brendryen, a paleoclimatologist at the University of Bergen in Norway who has studied the effects of deglaciation in Europe following the end of the last ice age, the idea that traditional oral histories preserve real accounts of sea level rise is perfectly plausible.

How it reads in SteveB's world:

So, I again, reiterate my comfort with my submission of the article and my purpose for doing so.
There's no mention of an ice age.

Furthermore, the article had "ice age" right there in the title! It was called "Memories of the End of the Last Ice Age, from Those Who Were There", but never mind that.

And heaven forbid you should ever admit you were wrong to an atheist.

As you say, "Arrogance is trusting one's self more than is appropriate."

I don't trust myself at all.
At least on that we agree.

So you will understand when you state your unsupported opinions as fact I do not believe you.

Sounds like you have an ego problem with arrogance.
It's actually quite educational...
You accuse me of being arrogant and here you are fighting to demonstrate your own arrogance.
So? I am not pretending that I am not arrogant. You are.

I do not profess to follow a religion that considers pride to be the worst of the seven deadly sins. You are.

My arrogance and pride are a non-issue. And at least I have the humility to know that I can be arrogant, that I have pride.

I'm not the one who keeps saying they're right, while having the awareness that their folly will destroy them, while being convinced of their rightness.
You are the one who keeps saying he is right, and anyone who disagrees will burn forever in hell.

I think that takes considerably more arrogance.

That's simply because you don't actually want to know the truth.
No, Steve, it is because you assume your unsupported opinions are "the truth". I dare to disagree.


Last time around I said this:

Show me one instance of you admitting you were wrong to an atheist.
I do not doubt you can admit you were wrong to a Christian, but never an atheist. So here is your chance to prove me wrong Steve.

I see you have not presented any such time; until you do, I will continue to assume that none exist.

Even when you said of an article called "Memories of the End of the Last Ice Age, from Those Who Were There", that "There's no mention of an ice age" and you were so clearly and blatantly wrong, you still could not admit it, so it seems a safe assumption.
 
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Whatsisface

Well-known member
I certainly think myself superior to anyone claiming to have a college education in physics, but who still cannot admit he was wrong to say positrons bounce off electrons.
Another gem from Steve which I unfortunately can't find, (I may look further) is that the big bang was caused by two atoms colliding together.

Despite posting articles that showed "It took 380,000 years for electrons to be trapped in orbits around nuclei, forming the first atoms", after the BB, he would not admit his mistake.
 

The Pixie

Well-known member
Found it:

It's pretty basic.....
evolution assumes that everything came from 2 atoms, which accidentally collided at some point, in some unknown past, and then experienced a dramatic explosion, which resulted in all we see.
No order, just random interactions, which presents us with today.
So..... where did reason come from?
I think CS Lewis described it well.....
This from a guy who claims to be college educated in physics...

Jump to page three for the discussion, where Steve does the usual: first citing real science articles that prove him wrong, then, realising he was does not have a leg to stand on, rather than admitting it, goes into full rant mode with the usual threats of eternal hellfire, carefully avoiding the subject altogether.

Anything to save his precious pride.
 

Whatsisface

Well-known member
Found it:


This from a guy who claims to be college educated in physics...

Jump to page three for the discussion, where Steve does the usual: first citing real science articles that prove him wrong, then, realising he was does not have a leg to stand on, rather than admitting it, goes into full rant mode with the usual threats of eternal hellfire, carefully avoiding the subject altogether.

Anything to save his precious pride.
Yes, It's hard to understand how someone can be so unreasonable.
 
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