Why would God say rape is wrong?

Algor

Well-known member
If they are atheeists, they find ways to "rationalize" their violence.
My goodness, like Christianity has ever found that difficult either.

Stop and think for a moment. WW1 was fought almost entirely between Christian nations (with the exception of the Ottoman Empire) and was a gigantic sausage grinder for human bodies. Clerics on all sides had no problem at all rationalizing it.
 

stiggy wiggy

Well-known member
ENOUGH OF THIS TAP DANCING!.
You exist.
Do YOU think that rape is wrong in and of itself? YES or NO.

James' point whizzed straight over your silly cap. If the question is, "If God didn't exist, would YOU think rape is wrong," James knows that if God didn't exist, he himself wouldn't exist to think anything.
 
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Mr Laurier

Well-known member
James' point whizzed straight over your silly cap. If the question is, "If God didn't exist, would YOU think rape is wrong," James knows that if God didn't exist, he himself wouldn't exist to think anything.

Too bad I dont have a "silly cap".
God doesn't exist.
I KNOW rape is wrong.
James is tapdancing to avoid addressing the issue that rape is wrong.
That YOU think rape is not wrong, tells me all I need to know about you.
 

bigthinker

Well-known member
The reason a moral value can transcend personal preference is because of the weight of value placed upon it, and no one human being has the weight of worth required to arbitrate values for all others.

What Algor or Whatisisface considers about rape, does not have enough importance to apply to all beings for all time because they do not have infinite worth and are not the source of all created things.

We are given the option to devalue God's morality, he grants the freedom to do this, because freedom is a facet that allows one more way to value God, and so we have the option to put our own subjective feelings over God.
God doesn't have a morality other than what human believers attribute to God. God is a human construct that doesn't appear to exist outside of the imaginations of humans. "God's morality" is the morality of humans.
When I say something is wrong or right, I can know it's more than just what I prefer, because an infinite Being is the source of the nobility, purpose, honor, worth, and rightness of the action, not my feelings, and his valuations are the basis for his judgments, not my petty preferences or idols.
The "infinite being" is a being you've imagined. You have assigned to it the responsibility of being the source of nobility, purpose, honor, worth etc.
I don't quite understand the need to project values on an "infinite being"... perhaps believing these values are "bigger than oneself" gives them weight? Question: are there any moral issues -any moral position on which you and God disagree? Or do God's moral values pretty much align with your own (or vice-versa)? If so, which and what? Because it seems odd that a sinful being would be in complete agreement -morally speaking, with a morally perfect, infinite being, don't you think?
 

Whatsisface

Well-known member
James' point whizzed straight over your silly cap. If the question is, "If God didn't exist, would YOU think rape is wrong," James knows that if God didn't exist, he himself wouldn't exist to think anything.
His point is a dodge which is his usual MO, and incidentaly he doesn't know he wouldn't exist. He's welcome to say how he thinks he knows God exists. By all means ask him, he won't answer.
 

Gus Bovona

Well-known member
ENOUGH OF THIS TAP DANCING!.
You exist.
Do YOU think that rape is wrong in and of itself? YES or NO.
Get around it with this:
Can any Christian or theist here say why they themselves think that rape is wrong, besides God telling them that rape is wrong? And, are any of those reasons why rape is wrong potentially the reasons why God holds that rape is wrong?
I only had one poster, Whatsisface, answer that question.
 

Nic

Well-known member
Get around it with this:

I only had one poster, Whatsisface, answer that question.
Hi Gus, you probably have missed some responses in the thread. I didn't come aboard til post #76 (& later #88). At that time I had only read the OP, but it was so that I could address the OP without influence of others. I offered two responses and the second was a reiteration.
Edited to add:
I believe Whatsisface comment about harm is in harmony with what I offered as well.

Thank you.
Nic
 
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Gus Bovona

Well-known member
Hi Gus, you probably have missed some responses in the thread. I didn't come aboard til post #76 (& later #88). At that time I had only read the OP, but it was so that I could address the OP without influence of others. I offered two responses and the second was a reiteration.
Edited to add:
I believe Whatsisface comment about harm is in harmony with what I offered as well.

Thank you.
Nic
Hi Nic:

Yes, I did miss those posts, thanks for alerting me to them.

Would you agree with my re-phrasing of what you wrote: the problem with rape, for God, is the associated coveting and the harm that the violence of rape creates.
 

Nic

Well-known member
Hi Nic:

Yes, I did miss those posts, thanks for alerting me to them.

Would you agree with my re-phrasing of what you wrote: the problem with rape, for God, is the associated coveting and the harm that the violence of rape creates.
You're welcome. Absolutely. That's just as much as valid an answer for the Christian's response too.

Thanks again Gus,

Nic
 

Gus Bovona

Well-known member
@Gus Bovona

I misread something. You're rephrasing of my response is perfectly fine.
Thanks.
No problem.

So, going back to the OP, the same reason why God says rape is wrong is the same reason an atheist can say the rape is wrong - because of the violence and the harm. Here's why:

God is not being arbitrary about rape being wrong. Rape isn't wrong because God is all-powerful and whatever he says, goes; or because God created everything and thereby get to lay down the rules no matter what the rules are (even if it is true that God is all powerful and he created everything). No, the reason for God is that rape is harmful.

So if being all-powerful, and having created everything, is irrelevant as to why rape is wrong, then the atheist say rape is wrong because it is harmful. So we don't need God to know that rape is wrong.
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
I've been told recently that atheism has no basis to say anything is right or wrong, it's all just a personal preference. So I'm wondering, why would God say rape is wrong?
This question can rapidly lead us to Euthyphro's dilemma. Does God say rape is wrong because it is wrong, or is it wrong because God says it's wrong? If we go with the former iteration, then God is following a higher standard which proves he isn't worthy of the title. If we go with the latter, then God is just capricious.

Some have come up with an alternative that God is synonymous with his standard. Regardless, the fact remains that hundreds of thousands of years of evolution doesn't make anything "good" anymore than a fictional god making the claim in the first chapter of Genesis.

The old school atheists understood this, and pointed out how absurd it all is. If we want anything to make sense, we have to assume that there is such a thing as "the good' and "the truth", otherwise everything one says is utter gibberish.
 

Dizerner

Well-known member
God doesn't have a morality other than what human believers attribute to God. God is a human construct that doesn't appear to exist outside of the imaginations of humans. "God's morality" is the morality of humans.

And you, a little fallible tiny worm on a God-forsaken rock, know all knowledge so you can speak with absolute authority?

Why in the world should I believe you have omniscience?

Why should I even listen to anything you have to say?!

The "infinite being" is a being you've imagined.

I could just as easily argue I've imagined you and your post, you seem like a bad pizza dream.

I could argue you've simply imagined yourself, and you really don't exist.

But the reason I'm "wasting" my time talking to a non-existent thing is because I don't simply default to calling everything I experience an illusion.

You have assigned to it the responsibility of being the source of nobility, purpose, honor, worth etc. I don't quite understand the need to project values on an "infinite being"... perhaps believing these values are "bigger than oneself" gives them weight?

You're begging the question by implying there is a "need," but logically and morally you have no weight if all that matters is you and your little saucy opinion on morality.

Question: are there any moral issues -any moral position on which you and God disagree?

The Bible teaches we are sinners, bigthinker. So think.... big... of course I don't always immediately like everything about God. Do you think I'm not human? I don't give a flying fig newton about God unless some kind of miracle occurs in my heart. I would just want to "use" God for something I can get. And so I constantly make adjustments and ask God for help.

Or do God's moral values pretty much align with your own (or vice-versa)? If so, which and what? Because it seems odd that a sinful being would be in complete agreement -morally speaking, with a morally perfect, infinite being, don't you think?

Yes. I don't naturally like God, I've been miraculously transformed.

And so why does it seem odd to you that so many atheists and godless people on this forum and elsewhere constantly don't like God's rules?

Peace out.
 

Whatsisface

Well-known member
This question can rapidly lead us to Euthyphro's dilemma. Does God say rape is wrong because it is wrong, or is it wrong because God says it's wrong? If we go with the former iteration, then God is following a higher standard which proves he isn't worthy of the title.
Hmm. A consequence of this is God can't know and say that there is nothing wrong in itself which also points to Him not being worthy of the title.
If we go with the latter, then God is just capricious.
Agreed.
Some have come up with an alternative that God is synonymous with his standard. Regardless, the fact remains that hundreds of thousands of years of evolution doesn't make anything "good" anymore than a fictional god making the claim in the first chapter of Genesis.
Agreed, evolution over time time has nothing to do with whether something is right or wrong. Minds capable of self reflection and abstract thought can nevertheless judge what is good and bad quite easily.
The old school atheists understood this, and pointed out how absurd it all is. If we want anything to make sense, we have to assume that there is such a thing as "the good' and "the truth", otherwise everything one says is utter gibberish.
I disagree. The ideas of good and truth and fairness are easy enough to understand. If I treat someone unfairly, have I done something good or bad?
 

bigthinker

Well-known member
And you, a little fallible tiny worm on a God-forsaken rock, know all knowledge so you can speak with absolute authority?

Why in the world should I believe you have omniscience?

Why should I even listen to anything you have to say?!



I could just as easily argue I've imagined you and your post, you seem like a bad pizza dream.

I could argue you've simply imagined yourself, and you really don't exist.
You could... but didn't. And why would you, unless you're insane. Are you?
But the reason I'm "wasting" my time talking to a non-existent thing is because I don't simply default to calling everything I experience an illusion.
Okay. Neither do I.
You're begging the question by implying there is a "need," but logically and morally you have no weight if all that matters is you and your little saucy opinion on morality.
Logically and morally you have no weight either if all that matters is x you and your little saucy opinion on morality.
The Bible teaches we are sinners, bigthinker.
I don't have a reason to give the bible any credence. I don't care what it says. Besides, all you're going to do is share with me what YOU *think* the bible says.
And I don't really care.
I only care about that which true, demonstrably, factually, independently certifiably true. What you share of the bible is your interpretation, your opinion based on your particular bias. And I simply don't care.

So think.... big... of course I don't always immediately like everything about God.
What do you dislike about your God?
More importantly, is there any moral issue on which you and God disagree?
Is there any issue you think God is wrong about?
Probably not...
Do you think I'm not human? I don't give a flying fig newton about God unless some kind of miracle occurs in my heart. I would just want to "use" God for something I can get.
lol. which is what you're doing. Belief in God is comforting... kinda. Until you really start to think about it.
And so I constantly make adjustments and ask God for help.

Yes. I don't naturally like God, I've been miraculously transformed.

And so why does it seem odd to you that so many atheists and godless people on this forum and elsewhere constantly don't like God's rules?
You mean your rules.
There are a number of reasons. The fact that they aren't really rules - at least not one that apply to anyone other than the believer, is one. Your rules don't apply to me, I'm not subject to your God.
Another reason is that God's rules are often arbitrary and immoral.
Any person with a sense of morality can see that.

Peace out.
word.
 

bigthinker

Well-known member
And you, a little fallible tiny worm on a God-forsaken rock, know all knowledge so you can speak with absolute authority?
I don't speak with absolute authority anymore than you or your God does.
Why in the world should I believe you have omniscience?
I'm not sure... why would you believe that?
More importantly, why would you think you should believe that?
One doesn't need to be omniscient to have knowledge or to know when a claim is nonsense.
 
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