Will LBGT Marriages be accepted Doctrine and Women Holding the Priesthood.

You said you did not support the church with prop 8…here, did you not?
I may have stated it poorly, my bad, if you remember it was followed by me disagreeing with you about how the Church tells us what to think, what to ware, what we have to believe etc. So to clarify, I voted for Prop 8 and did it for my personal convictions and also at the time I was supporting the John Birch Society.... did not know much about the Church's stance.... so you're saying we do all that the church tells us to do is erroneous, flawed and false... that was my point.
 
Focus Ralf… marriage use to include plural marriages, and the ph used to ban blacks until it was changed…also there has been multiple changes in the ceremony… the PH had seventies, then removed them from thr PH…there was also correlation added to the PH…they are the ones that tell you what to teach…here is a good read if you have the openness to read it.

I see why you left the Church, your dogmatic and imperious. You are more orthodox then I was, you are upset that changes were made and you felt let down and lied to... as for me, Doctrine that is sound and given as revelation and voted upon is where I'm at...

Regards, good buddy.
 
Ralf wrote: Lots of good books out there, check out Jospeh Smith Foundation where they tear into the likes of scholars Richard Bushman and Lenard Arrington...

Have you read Bushman and Arrington?
I may have stated it poorly, my bad, if you remember it was followed by me disagreeing with you about how the Church tells us what to think, what to ware, what we have to believe etc. So to clarify, I voted for Prop 8 and did it for my personal convictions and also at the time I was supporting the John Birch Society.... did not know much about the Church's stance.... so you're saying we do all that the church tells us to do is erroneous, flawed and false... that was my point.
You are certainly doing a lot of walking back lately.
 
I see why you left the Church, your dogmatic and imperious. You are more orthodox then I was, you are upset that changes were made and you felt let down and lied to... as for me, Doctrine that is sound and given as revelation and voted upon is where I'm at...

Regards, good buddy.
I left the church for many reasons, and I am a lot of things Ralf. But, one of those things I am, is a person that has the ability to be honest with myself. And that said, when I read a “anti” book, and more or less as you put it chuckled and thought it a lie, but after deciding to check out the citations in actual Church produced publications, I found these antis for the most part were relating truths about JS, BY, and early doctrine and changes. A history that was not what I was taught, but it was actually written in our history books?

An example…you said something about Bushman…have you even read his books or listened to him…I certainly don’t agree with a lot of what he writes, but he writes well and he did his home work.

I’ll start a thread so you can answer.
 
I feel that Marrk has such unreasonable issues with Gods laws on homosexuals in the church as not to notice that man has changed the laws and rules, but God who loves us all has still set the moral issues pertaining to marriage and eternal life. Those who choose otherwise are not lost to a Kingdom of God, just not the Celestial Kingdom... I have always taught that God will not embarrass us or make us feel uncomfortable, so in the Celestial Glory it will be only those who choose to have like minds and hearts and those in a lesser degree will be just as comfortable with like minded others...maybe a reason he can't or won't accept God Kingdom here on earth, and just as Marrk believes will be comfortable in a degree of heaven where his empathy for Gays will be noted and like minded.
For me, it's not about God's laws. God did not create gender, so the laws that govern procreation are natural. They exist outside of God's laws. Procreation can only occur between a man and a woman and so any other relationship is a perversion of natural law. God wisely established laws of fidelity. Those are not entirely natural. Both genders have a tendency to stray and follow lust rather than fidelity. That has to be guarded and protected. The continuation of God's work can only continue in this type of family relationship and that's why those who do guard it and protect it can be exalted where others can't.

However, there are a few statements you made that I would disagree with. I don't think it's appropriate to exclude anyone from the Celestial kingdom as a matter of principle or judgment.
Those who choose otherwise are not lost to a Kingdom of God, just not the Celestial Kingdom...
There is no sin that cannot be forgiven but one. Acting on our weakness is not it. While it may not be possible to be exalted (as there is a limit to the time that the earth will exist - marriages cannot be performed in heaven so when this earth expires, so will the opportunity to be married) entrance into the Celestial kingdom is always open for those who repent - that is, if one believes that "though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall become like wool". If this is true, then the Celestial kingdom is not an opportunity lost. I see no time limit on this offer, do you?
I have always taught that God will not embarrass us or make us feel uncomfortable, so in the Celestial Glory it will be only those who choose to have like minds and hearts and those in a lesser degree will be just as comfortable with like minded others.
I understand what you're getting. This is not to say that we won't feel uncomfortable ... that would be contradictory to wishing the mountains would cover us at his coming. But I don't think God assigns or judges us according to our comfort level. I don't think he puts us where we are of like mind. Rather, He puts us where we want to be and even though our minds are not aligned with those where we want to be, He affords us every opportunity to obtain that mind. Hence the ministering from those who are in a higher kingdom than our own. We are in that state now. No one living is like-minded with God. Not even those in monogamous relationships between a man and a woman. We are so far from being like him, much less thinking like him, that it will be a miracle that we will ever be even as he is. With that thought, remember that the opportunity for us lowly peons, to be like him, is still an open invitation. All we can do is be willing and obedient (Is 1:19) and for that (as little as that is), the promise is committed.

It is my personal opinion that this offer is never rescinded. If those who were once disobedient in the days of Noah have an opportunity to live according to God in spirit, then why not anyone else? Those who are willing and obedient now will be the ministering angels to those who were not. My question is, can God heal us now or must we wait? I think He can, even if it doesn't feel like He is. We may want to look back at what could have been, the fun we missed, the trouble we made because of the fun we had... it can all be healed and healed now.

I have a friend who served a mission and got married in the temple but decided that it wasn't right and dump his wife who understood - according to him - and pursued a same-sex relationship. He explained that he struggled with it and in prayer, he heard a voice that told him that if that's what he wanted, not to be concerned, he'll be alright and so he did. I have to believe that he will be alright, but at what cost? He will be so far behind where he could have been. He doesn't even see how far he's fallen from where he was. Sure, he's having a good time. He's successful. His home is beautiful and he's a great person, but he has issues and occasionally recognizes that something is missing. It will occasionally slip in comments that he can never have his own children and he misses that. Now set that thought on an eternal landscape and that void amplifies exponentially worlds without end. But he'll be okay. That seems to be an empty promise in light of all that could be, but I wouldn't divest him of Celestial glory just yet.

As I said, I don't know church policy concerning gays who are married and members of the church. I don't think any attend. I know gays who aren't married who attend and are quite active in church, but I don't know any practicing gays currently involved in a relationship who do anything more than an occasional visit as it is about all they can stand. I think that last statement says it all. I don't think practicing gays who disagree with church policy will agree with God's policy. I don't think they will be able to stand it which fits right into your comfort zone comment, but that's their choice, not God's and when and if they ever chose otherwise, I believe that opportunity will always be open to them as most of the work will be done for them if they are willing to accept it, but eternal marriage might not be within their grasp.
 
I left the church for many reasons, and I am a lot of things Ralf. But, one of those things I am, is a person that has the ability to be honest with myself.
I suppose you are also the most humble person you know.
And that said, when I read a “anti” book, and more or less as you put it chuckled and thought it a lie, but after deciding to check out the citations in actual Church produced publications, I found these antis for the most part were relating truths about JS, BY, and early doctrine and changes.
Funny how others who have done exactly the same thing come away with a completely different perspective of their research. I wonder how that works?
A history that was not what I was taught, but it was actually written in our history books?
Well, there you go. It's not hidden. It's in our history books, most of which are published in full on the internet. Anyone can read them, both anti- and anti-anti alike. I have and I see no problem. You have and can see nothing but problems.
An example…you said something about Bushman…have you even read his books or listened to him…
I have listened to him. As I recall, he's a historian. I'm glad you're going to make another thread on this subject. Otherwise, this would be just another attempt to change the topic.
 
I left the church for many reasons, and I am a lot of things Ralf. But, one of those things I am, is a person that has the ability to be honest with myself. And that said, when I read a “anti” book, and more or less as you put it chuckled and thought it a lie, but after deciding to check out the citations in actual Church produced publications, I found these antis for the most part were relating truths about JS, BY, and early doctrine and changes. A history that was not what I was taught, but it was actually written in our history books?

An example…you said something about Bushman…have you even read his books or listened to him…I certainly don’t agree with a lot of what he writes, but he writes well and he did his home work.

I’ll start a thread so you can answer.
Yep, bought it and read it completely, I know you may have thought I just read through it... The Book did not bother me until I realized that his delving into actual history was skewed... I also wondered why John Dehlin was promoting it so much...

Excommunicated member John Dehlin promotes Rough Stone Rolling as one of his “must have” resources for members transitioning away from the Church.


Browse through it if you have time...

 
For me, it's not about God's laws. God did not create gender, so the laws that govern procreation are natural. They exist outside of God's laws. Procreation can only occur between a man and a woman and so any other relationship is a perversion of natural law. God wisely established laws of fidelity. Those are not entirely natural. Both genders have a tendency to stray and follow lust rather than fidelity. That has to be guarded and protected. The continuation of God's work can only continue in this type of family relationship and that's why those who do guard it and protect it can be exalted where others can't.
Pretty much what I stated and believe...

However, there are a few statements you made that I would disagree with. I don't think it's appropriate to exclude anyone from the Celestial kingdom as a matter of principle or judgment.

There is no sin that cannot be forgiven but one. Acting on our weakness is not it. While it may not be possible to be exalted (as there is a limit to the time that the earth will exist - marriages cannot be performed in heaven so when this earth expires, so will the opportunity to be married) entrance into the Celestial kingdom is always open for those who repent - that is, if one believes that "though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall become like wool". If this is true, then the Celestial kingdom is not an opportunity lost. I see no time limit on this offer, do you?
It's not the person, it's the sin and mercy can take place on this earth.... in the spirit world we will be assigned different places, one Paradise and the other Spirit Prison where they can still accept the ordinances of the Gospel... final judgement will be for our actions, good or evil. A Married same sex couple will be judged accordingly for the knowledge they have received while on this earth, I can not judge their hearts or minds or what actions they would have taken if they had the Gospel preached to them... that is Gods judgement...



I understand what you're getting. This is not to say that we won't feel uncomfortable ... that would be contradictory to wishing the mountains would cover us at his coming. But I don't think God assigns or judges us according to our comfort level. I don't think he puts us where we are of like mind. Rather, He puts us where we want to be and even though our minds are not aligned with those where we want to be, He affords us every opportunity to obtain that mind. Hence the ministering from those who are in a higher kingdom than our own. We are in that state now. No one living is like-minded with God. Not even those in monogamous relationships between a man and a woman. We are so far from being like him, much less thinking like him, that it will be a miracle that we will ever be even as he is. With that thought, remember that the opportunity for us lowly peons, to be like him, is still an open invitation. All we can do is be willing and obedient (Is 1:19) and for that (as little as that is), the promise is committed.
The comfort level comes with the knowledge that we will be with others in unity and love.... would a person who has not lived a Celestial type of life feel comfort with someone who did, would there be the same unity and bond; or would there be some discomfort, especially knowing you live in Gods Life or living with God (for eternity)?


It is my personal opinion that this offer is never rescinded. If those who were once disobedient in the days of Noah have an opportunity to live according to God in spirit, then why not anyone else? Those who are willing and obedient now will be the ministering angels to those who were not. My question is, can God heal us now or must we wait? I think He can, even if it doesn't feel like He is. We may want to look back at what could have been, the fun we missed, the trouble we made because of the fun we had... it can all be healed and healed now.
Yep!

I have a friend who served a mission and got married in the temple but decided that it wasn't right and dump his wife who understood - according to him - and pursued a same-sex relationship. He explained that he struggled with it and in prayer, he heard a voice that told him that if that's what he wanted, not to be concerned, he'll be alright and so he did. I have to believe that he will be alright, but at what cost? He will be so far behind where he could have been. He doesn't even see how far he's fallen from where he was. Sure, he's having a good time. He's successful. His home is beautiful and he's a great person, but he has issues and occasionally recognizes that something is missing. It will occasionally slip in comments that he can never have his own children and he misses that. Now set that thought on an eternal landscape and that void amplifies exponentially worlds without end. But he'll be okay. That seems to be an empty promise in light of all that could be, but I wouldn't divest him of Celestial glory just yet.
That is not ours to decide or judge.. like I stated only God can understand and have knowledge of the heart and desires of each individual.. He will judge righteously... I understand your point though...

As I said, I don't know church policy concerning gays who are married and members of the church. I don't think any attend. I know gays who aren't married who attend and are quite active in church, but I don't know any practicing gays currently involved in a relationship who do anything more than an occasional visit as it is about all they can stand. I think that last statement says it all. I don't think practicing gays who disagree with church policy will agree with God's policy. I don't think they will be able to stand it which fits right into your comfort zone comment, but that's their choice, not God's and when and if they ever chose otherwise, I believe that opportunity will always be open to them as most of the work will be done for them if they are willing to accept it, but eternal marriage might not be within their grasp.

I understand that some things for us will be a mystery until we receive further light and knowledge... take care.
 
Have you read Bushman and Arrington?

You are certainly doing a lot of walking back lately.
Leonard J. Arrington was the Church Historian for many years and was a progressive and would also admit he was... He did leave his journal for all to read after 10 years had passed... no, I did not read his journal...
 
in the spirit world we will be assigned different places, one Paradise and the other Spirit Prison where they can still accept the ordinances of the Gospel... final judgement will be for our actions, good or evil
I can see we have some differences. I don't believe the spirit world is a place where we are assigned one place or the other. That's based on whether our works were good or evil. As for the final judgment, I don't think anyone knows when that is. But I think the final judgment will come long after this Earth has been celestialized. And it will be based on what we were willing to accept. If the people who God destroyed in the flood because of their disobedience are eligible to receive the Gospel that I don't see how anyone else would be denied the same opportunity. Sure they'll have to pay for their own sins but if they repent, and I don't see any limit on when forgiveness can be granted, and they live according to God in the spirit why can't they enter into the Celestial Kingdom? It seems to me that the common position in the church is that if you don't get it right in this life you're condemned forever. I don't buy into that idea. I don't think people who are born as members of the church any freedom removed from them for making mistakes and choosing to reject the teachings because they never understood them that they'll lose their opportunity for the Celestial Kingdom forever. That just doesn't seem to be just especially coming from a god who will forgive any sin except for one. When you can show me when the time limit is on that forgiveness then I will concede that there will be a time where people cannot repent and will be stuck with the decisions they've made forever.
 
I can see we have some differences. I don't believe the spirit world is a place where we are assigned one place or the other. That's based on whether our works were good or evil. As for the final judgment, I don't think anyone knows when that is. But I think the final judgment will come long after this Earth has been celestialized. And it will be based on what we were willing to accept. If the people who God destroyed in the flood because of their disobedience are eligible to receive the Gospel that I don't see how anyone else would be denied the same opportunity. Sure they'll have to pay for their own sins but if they repent, and I don't see any limit on when forgiveness can be granted, and they live according to God in the spirit why can't they enter into the Celestial Kingdom? It seems to me that the common position in the church is that if you don't get it right in this life you're condemned forever. I don't buy into that idea. I don't think people who are born as members of the church any freedom removed from them for making mistakes and choosing to reject the teachings because they never understood them that they'll lose their opportunity for the Celestial Kingdom forever. That just doesn't seem to be just especially coming from a god who will forgive any sin except for one. When you can show me when the time limit is on that forgiveness then I will concede that there will be a time where people cannot repent and will be stuck with the decisions they've made forever.
In truth, each day and every day is a day of judgement. I believe our doctrine teaches us that because of our Faith that Jesus is the Christ and accepting Christ atonement and then keep the commandments, ordinances and covenants in our daily actions, will absolutely determine which Kingdom we become heir to or inherit....

I don't know if I agree with you on when a sin can be repented for and still obtain the Celestial Kingdom, when you interject restitution as to restoring all our damage or our actions. Maybe I'm off on this for it states we must restore as far possible...

Again, maybe another thing I can just put on my shelf... chuckle.
 
Leonard J. Arrington was the Church Historian for many years and was a progressive and would also admit he was... He did leave his journal for all to read after 10 years had passed... no, I did not read his journal...
Then how do you know he was torn apart by the JSF?
 
Then how do you know he was torn apart by the JSF?
That's because over the last 50 yrs I honestly read everything I could on Mormonism... the anti and the Churches point of view, then I applied Moroni 10:5 and got the answers I asked. I am now doing a lot of research on Hanna Stoddard's work...
 
That's because over the last 50 yrs I honestly read everything I could on Mormonism... the anti and the Churches point of view, then I applied Moroni 10:5 and got the answers I asked. I am now doing a lot of research on Hanna Stoddard's work...
So because of of that, which I doubt, you can randomly state that the Joseph Smith Foundation, tore apart LA and RB in an article, before they even wrote and published the article…nice Ralf.

But please…list all these books you have read on Mormonism and Anti Mormonism? I have a huge library of books I have read, or read through, or plan to read, on mostly Mormonism and some anti…but have not even dented the resources out there.


Have you read the Journal of William Clayton? Or Religion of a Different Color ? Or Nauvoo Polygamy? And I am really interested in what anti books you have read?
 
In truth, each day and every day is a day of judgement.
Final judgment. Supposedly, there won't be any days of judgment after that, wouldn't you agree?
I believe our doctrine teaches us that because of our Faith that Jesus is the Christ and accepting Christ atonement and then keep the commandments, ordinances and covenants in our daily actions, will absolutely determine which Kingdom we become heir to or inherit....
I'm not arguing that it won't. My point is that we can accept Christ's atonement, and keep the commandments and get the ordinances necessary - that anyone who does that can obtain the Celestial kingdom. There's no cutoff date unless they choose to be cut off. If it must be done in this life, then there is no reason to do work for the dead.
I don't know if I agree with you on when a sin can be repented for and still obtain the Celestial Kingdom,
I know, and I understand that. I just wanted to make my position clear on that point.
when you interject restitution as to restoring all our damage or our actions.
I hope you aren't accusing me of interjecting that. That's not my position. In fact, there are many things we can't restore and yet we can still inherit the Celestial Kingdom. For example, we can't restore someone's life, but if we took their life in self-defense or other reasons, then it won't prevent us from entering the kingdom of God. Let me explain my position better, I might not have been clear about it before.

There is a point where all the sins we ever committed will be cleansed away up to a point. That point is baptism by water. The church won't baptize knowingly, people who are on probation or who are in jail for crimes. After they've served their time, they can be and at that point, all former sins are washed clean. The sinner didn't have to do anything. Jesus took care of all of that. However, if they return to their former ways or continue to break the commandments, it will be worse for them than it was before they were baptized. Depending on the transgression, the repentant sinner may have to go through that process of restitution. But it's not that way for the dead. They can never restore what they did. The wicked will burn and suffer the consequences of their sins, regardless of their standing in or out of the church - wicked people do exist in the church. They had their whole life to learn obedience and they didn't. That is the condition the wicked will find themselves in.

Concerning the wicked who have served their punishment, we already know that they can join those in the telestial kingdom. This is a step up the ladder. They paid for their sins but still aren't obedient. They haven't repented and so are stuck living the life they are willing to live. But is it the end for them? Why does God send ministering angels amongst them? Is it to torment them? I don't think so. I have to believe there is a purpose and as there has never been an end date on repentance or forgiveness and that all sins except one can be forgiven, then it seems likely that those in these lower kingdoms can repent. I'm just not aware of any scriptural reference that repentance is futile after some point in eternity. I personally think it would be sad if there were.
Maybe I'm off on this for it states we must restore as far possible...
I don't think you're off where it concerns the living who have committed their lives to God. After someone has been baptized, the path to forgiveness isn't as easy as it is for those who receive baptism for the first time.
Again, maybe another thing I can just put on my shelf... chuckle.
I don't mean to be argumentative. I'm just airing my thoughts on the subject and though I disagree with some of the wording you used, I accept that there are people in the church who have your understanding, even if that alone doesn't make it true. It's not a point of contention for me. I'm not trying to say you're wrong. It's just a thought of other possibilities that lie fully, IMO, within the church's doctrine. As long as no one accuses me of apostasy, I'm okay with their points of view.
 
That's because over the last 50 yrs I honestly read everything I could on Mormonism... the anti and the Churches point of view, then I applied Moroni 10:5 and got the answers I asked. I am now doing a lot of research on Hanna Stoddard's work...
I used to have a huge library, but over the years of moving and not replenishing my library, I've only kept a few books from it. I can't handle anti-Mormon material. I can barely handle non-Mormon material (where religion is concerned). I hope to start collecting books again. I'm quite settled now.
 
Thats it? What do you think about how the church is trending towards Gay membership and their open acceptance of the Gay marriage laws?
Hey Markk... I found this video interesting. The camel's nose in under the tent.. and this is dealing with the Deseret Book and what is being offered.

Here is the video link. It appears it is on the way in. Certainly the thinking is changing. Once the thinking has changed sufficiently, there will be "revelation " to support the thinking.

 
And finally the church recently came out in support of same sex marriage laws…so technically they support same sex marriage, but not openly as members or do they perform Weddings, and want to make sure it does not infringe on religious freedoms…so the door is opened a little more.
That my friend is very much cherry picked narrative...why don't you tell the truth about why they supported that legislation...

The church clarified that while its doctrine on marriage between a man and a woman remains unchanged, it would respect and preserve the rights of its “LGBTQ brothers and sisters” so long as the church would be given religious freedoms, according to a statement released Tuesday.

Washington Examiner.
 
Hey Markk... I found this video interesting. The camel's nose in under the tent.. and this is dealing with the Deseret Book and what is being offered.
Chuckle, its been suggested by many members that Deseret Book should be sold... this is why... hmm!

What is the difference between LDS bookstore and Deseret Book?


In general, the materials published by LDS Distribution are those that are part of regular worship in the Church–Scriptures, manuals, etc. And those published by Deseret Book are more commercial in nature.

motleyvision.org/2011/02/24/distinguishing-between-distribution-and-deseret-book/#:~:text=In%20general%2C%20the%20materials%20published,are%20more%20commercial%20in%20nature.
 
Last edited:
I used to have a huge library, but over the years of moving and not replenishing my library, I've only kept a few books from it. I can't handle anti-Mormon material. I can barely handle non-Mormon material (where religion is concerned). I hope to start collecting books again. I'm quite settled now.
So did I, we moved and my wife said they had to go..... but I gave both sides an opportunity to make their points, the anti's lost.
 
Back
Top