Will Mormons answer our questions or shove them aside?

[Theo1689]

So--that begs the question--did these become gods--or were they gods all along?

John 10:34-35---King James Version
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

So everything in the Bible has to be taken literally?
So Jesus is really a door?
So Jesus is really bread?
So Jesus is really a vine?

Or maybe there is reason to take John 10:34 figuratively:

Deut. 4:35 … the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him.

Deut. 4:39 … the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.

Deut. 6:4  Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

Deut. 32:39  … there is no god with me:

2 Sam. 7:22 … O LORD God: for there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, …

2 Sam. 22:32 For who is God, save the LORD?

1 Kings 8:60 … the LORD is God, and that there is none else.

1 Chr. 17:20 O LORD, there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, …

2 Chr. 15:3 Now for a long season Israel hath been without the true God, …

Isa. 43:10 … understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isa. 44:6 Thus saith the LORD … I am the first, and I am the last; and besides me there is no God. 

Isa. 44:8 … Is there a God besides me? yea, there is  no God; I know not any.

Is. 45:5  I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is  no God besides me:

Isa. 45:21 … and  there is  no God else besides me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. 

Isa. 45:22 … for I am God, and  there is  none else.

Isa. 46:9 … for  I  am  God, and  there is  none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

Jer. 10:10 But the LORD is the true God, he is the living God, and an everlasting king:…

Joel 2:27 … I am the LORD your God, and none else: …

Mark 12:32 … for there is one God; and there is none other but he:

1Cor. 8:4 … there is none other God but one.

John 17:3 …that they might know thee the only true God,…

Eph. 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1 Tim. 2:5 For there is one God, …

James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

 

[Aaron32]

So everything in the Bible has to be taken literally?
So Jesus is really a door?
So Jesus is really bread?
So Jesus is really a vine?

Or maybe there is reason to take John 10:34 figuratively:

So you're arguing Jesus claimed to be figuratively the Son of God but not literal?

 

[Theo1689]

So you're arguing Jesus is only figuratively the Son of God? Or was Jesus twisting scripture.

Please quote me or else stop misrepresenting me, Aaron.
But thank you for showing everyone what Mormonism does to people, and the rotten fruits that they produce.

 

[Aaron32]

Please quote me or else stop misrepresenting me, Aaron.
But thank you for showing everyone what Mormonism does to people, and the rotten fruits that they produce.

I'm just trying to understand your point. Jesus is literally the Son of God but your claiming there's a reason to interpret the scripture he used to justify his Godhood figuratively. Can you elaborate?

Maybe we can take Jesus at his word: Unto whom the word of God came, He calls them "gods". (John 10:35)

 

[Theo1689]

I'm just trying to understand your point. Jesus is literally the Son of God but your claiming there's a reason to interpret the scripture he used to justify his Godhood figuratively. Can you elaborate?

We are talking about the Mormon false gospel of polytheism.
Why are you trying to change the subject to the "Son of God"?
I'll tell you why. You can't defend your false teachings, and so you feel the need to change the subject and put the critics on the defensive because you have no answers.

I guess I'll have to remind you once again.
This is the "Mormonism" forum, not the "Christianity" forum.
This forum is not for attacking my beliefs, it is for discussing Mormon teachings (such as polytheism).

Are you willing to admit that "plural gods" is a false and anti-Biblical teaching?
Or do you wish to try to defend it, and try to address all the "only one god exists" passages?

Maybe we can take Jesus at his word: Unto whom the word of God came, He calls them "gods". (John 10:35)

So you deny all the "only one god exists" verses that I posted, and that you ignore.
Thank you for admitting that you deny most of the Bible.

Your church teaches that the Bible was "not translated correctly" (AoF 8).
How do you know that John 10:34 was "translated correctly", other than by cherry-picking? The fact of the matter is that since you have destroyed the credibility of the Bible (in your own mind, anyway), you have no basis for trusting ANY verse is "translated correctly".

Now please address the following:

Deut. 4:35 … the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him.

Deut. 4:39 … the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.

Deut. 6:4  Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

Deut. 32:39  … there is no god with me:

2 Sam. 7:22 … O LORD God: for there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, …

2 Sam. 22:32 For who is God, save the LORD?

1 Kings 8:60 … the LORD is God, and that there is none else.

1 Chr. 17:20 O LORD, there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, …

2 Chr. 15:3 Now for a long season Israel hath been without the true God, …

Isa. 43:10 … understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isa. 44:6 Thus saith the LORD … I am the first, and I am the last; and besides me there is no God. 

Isa. 44:8 … Is there a God besides me? yea, there is  no God; I know not any.

Is. 45:5  I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is  no God besides me:

Isa. 45:21 … and  there is  no God else besides me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. 

Isa. 45:22 … for I am God, and  there is  none else.

Isa. 46:9 … for  I  am  God, and  there is  none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

Jer. 10:10 But the LORD is the true God, he is the living God, and an everlasting king:…

Joel 2:27 … I am the LORD your God, and none else: …

Mark 12:32 … for there is one God; and there is none other but he:

1Cor. 8:4 … there is none other God but one.

John 17:3 …that they might know thee the only true God,…

Eph. 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1 Tim. 2:5 For there is one God, …

James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

 

[dberrie2020]

dberrie2020 said: So--that begs the question--did these become gods--or were they gods all along?

John 10:34-35---King James Version
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

So everything in the Bible has to be taken literally?
So Jesus is really a door?
So Jesus is really bread?
So Jesus is really a vine?

Or maybe there is reason to take John 10:34 figuratively:

Deut. 4:35 … the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him.

Deut. 4:39 … the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.

So--if we do take that literally--then what are we to make of the NT testimony--where it separates the God of the OT, IE--God the Son-- out from the "one God" of the Biblical NT?

1 Corinthians 8:6---King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Timothy 2:5--King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Ephesians 4:4-6--King James Version (KJV)
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

And--then assigns God the Son as having a God and Father also?

John 17:3---King James Version (KJV)
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Matthew 22:44 ---King James Version (KJV)
44 The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?

1 Peter 1:3--King James Version (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

John 20:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Ephesians 1:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

Hebrews 1:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

Care to engage those scriptures--and give us your explanation as to why God the Son was separated out from the "one God" of the Biblical NT?

 

[dberrie2020]

So you deny all the "only one god exists" verses that I posted, and that you ignore.
Thank you for admitting that you deny most of the Bible.

For me--the problem with that claim is the only "one God" in the Biblical NT wasn't the God of the OT, IE--God the Son--it was the God and Father of the God of the OT.

 

[Theo1689]

So--if we do take that literally--then what are we to make of the NT testimony--where it separates the God of the OT, IE--God the Son-- out from the "one God" of the Biblical NT?

1 Corinthians 8:6---King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Timothy 2:5--King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Ephesians 4:4-6--King James Version (KJV)
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

And--then assigns God the Son as having a God and Father also?

John 17:3---King James Version (KJV)
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Matthew 22:44 ---King James Version (KJV)
44 The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?

1 Peter 1:3--King James Version (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

John 20:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Ephesians 1:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

Hebrews 1:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

Care to engage those scriptures--and give us your explanation as to why God the Son was separated out from the "one God" of the Biblical NT?

And as usual, dberrie IGNORES all the "only one god exists" passages, and goes off-topic trying to attack Christianity (which is OFF-TOPIC here), because he can't defend bankrtup Mormonism.

Nice to see that nothing's changed here...

 

[Theo1689]

For me--the problem with that claim is the only "one God" in the Biblical NT wasn't the God of the OT, IE--God the Son--it was the God and Father of the God of the OT.

We will deal with that after we see whether you agree with the Bible's teaching on "only one God existing" or whether you reject the Biblical teaching.

You're trying to understand Calculus without first understanding arithmetic.

 

[dberrie2020]

And as usual, dberrie IGNORES all the "only one god exists" passages,

The only "one God" in the Biblical NT is God the Father--God the Son is excluded from that specific designation:

1 Corinthians 8:6---King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Timothy 2:5--King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Ephesians 4:4-6--King James Version (KJV)
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Claiming there is only "one God" does not deal why the "one God" of the Biblical NT excludes God the Son.

Showing Jesus Christ claiming there is no other in the OT--defies the NT claim of Jesus being excluded from the "one God"--and having the "one God" as Jesus Christ's God and Father. There has to be another explanation other than the one you offer. Yours is just denial. Mine is--the "no other God" claims are one of comparability, for Israel to inherit eternal life. That's still true, but it does not address the existence of other gods, nor why God the Son is separated out from the Biblical NT "one God".

Please explain that for us.

and goes off-topic trying to attack Christianity (which is OFF-TOPIC here), because he can't defend bankrtup Mormonism.

What are you claiming isn't Christianity about the NT testimony?

1 Corinthians 8:6---King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Timothy 2:5--King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Ephesians 4:4-6--King James Version (KJV)
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

 

[Aaron32]

We are talking about the Mormon false gospel of polytheism.Why are you trying to change the subject to the "Son of God"?

Mormons believe the Bible to be the word of God. It's in our articles of faith. Discussing a Bible verse, and various interpretation is still within mormondom.
Why wont you answer the question?

I'll tell you why. You can't defend your false teachings, and so you feel the need to change the subject and put the critics on the defensive because you have no answers.

This a postulation based on a false promise. Moreover, I'm not the subject. Just answer my question - why John 10:34 should be taken figuratively.

I guess I'll have to remind you once again.
This is the "Mormonism" forum, not the "Christianity" forum.

And again, Mormons believe in the Bible. You cant dodge the question with this lame excuse.

This forum is not for attacking my beliefs, it is for discussing Mormon teachings (such as polytheism).

Your using your beliefs as a measurement to criticize my beliefs. It's fair play to question to evaluate the thing you're being judged against, no? You made a claim on an interpretation of John 10:34. I was seeking further explanation given the context.

Are you willing to admit that "plural gods" is a false and anti-Biblical teaching?

It depends how you define "gods". If "Gods" meaning all powerful multiple creators over various elements and are competing deities, then yes. If, however, "gods" are those with God-given authority that work on God the Father's behalf, then that's completely biblical.

Or do you wish to try to defend it, and try to address all the "only one god exists" passages?

I can do both. There's no duality there.

So you deny all the "only one god exists" verses that I posted, and that you ignore.

Nope. I don't. Did I say that? Where do you draw that conclusion?

Thank you for admitting that you deny most of the Bible.

Matt 7:12. Why act in the exact opposite from what you requested of me? Namely "Please quote me or else stop misrepresenting me."

Your church teaches that the Bible was "not translated correctly" (AoF 8).

I disagree. it says "We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly."
I'm sure others have felt the same way or there wouldn't be so many translations of the Bible.

How do you know that John 10:34 was "translated correctly", other than by cherry-picking?

It seems to fit the context, and it doesn't challenge my beliefs. Is there a reason I should believe it's translated incorrectly? Do you have an alternate translation?

The fact of the matter is that since you have destroyed the credibility of the Bible (in your own mind, anyway), you have no basis for trusting ANY verse is "translated correctly".

Technically, that's true. I guess I need to trust that scripture was written with more than just ink on the page.

2 Corinthians 3:
3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart. 4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward: 5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God; 6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

 

[Aaron32]

Now please address the following:

Will do. Remember, my interpretation of the term "God" is one given authority (ie. "Unto who the word of God came")
2nd, remember Mormons believe that Jesus is Jehovah, God of the Old Testament.
3rd remember, a common theme in most of the Old Testament is to get the Israelites to give up idolatry.

Deut. 4:35 … the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him.

"The Lord" is the subject. "God" is a descriptor of authority, and the object of worship.
Jehovah, alone, led the Israelites out of bondage, just as Jesus, alone, paid for leads us out of spiritual bondage. Thus, there is none beside Him.

Deut. 4:39 … the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.

"The Lord" is the subject. "God" is a descriptor of authority, and the object of worship.
According to Mormonism, under the direction of the Father, Jesus was also the Creator of all things. John 1:3 affirms this: "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made"

Deut. 6:4  Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

"The Lord" is the subject. "God" is a descriptor of authority, and the object of worship.
This statement is part of the Shema. The prime directive of the Bible in general.
"is one LORD" is in vast contrast of the polytheism and idolatry of surrounding cultures of the day.
In essence, it restates commandment 1 of the 10.
Exodus 20:
2 I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. 3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Deut. 32:39  … there is no god with me:

In the context of our discussion, this takes some understanding.
First, the Lord teaches "line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little". (Isa 28:10)
Second, Jehovah led His covenant people alone,again, in contrast to the surrounding cultures. It would be out of context to start elaborating on the doctrine of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.
Deut 32 gives great descriptors of Christ, our Lord.

2 Sam. 7:22 … O LORD God: for there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, …

Is there anyone like Jesus? Not that I know of.

2 Sam. 22:32 For who is God, save the LORD?

Capitalized "God" referring to our Creator and deliverer. This doesn't even address the term "gods" those having "God-given" authority.

1 Kings 8:60 … the LORD is God, and that there is none else.

1 Chr. 17:20 O LORD, there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, …

Restatements of previous old Testament statements. Nothing new here.

2 Chr. 15:3 Now for a long season Israel hath been without the true God, …

"true God" is whom we ultimately worship. Israelites had fallen into idolatry for a long season.

Isa. 43:10 … understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

God is not formed. He is not created.
According to Mormon scripture, neither the Spirit of either God, His Son, or man can be created "Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be." (D&C 93:29)
Both Jesus, man, and God the Father exist eternally.

Isa. 44:6 Thus saith the LORD … I am the first, and I am the last; and besides me there is no God. 

Jesus is definitely the Firstborn, and as our Judge, he will eternally have the final word.
The term "besides" would be one of those issues relating to translation. It is not found consistent through multiple translations.
It's appears to be a restatement of Deut 4:35.
According to grammarly:
"Beside, without the s, tells us the location of something. Besides, on the other hand, means “in addition,” “in addition to,” “moreover,” or “as well,” depending on context."
If there was no other God besides Him, then truly this would rule out the possibilities of any other "gods" ever existing, but I don't believe this is the correct interpretation. This particular term can be discussed further here.

Isa. 44:8 … Is there a God besides me? yea, there is  no God; I know not any.

Is. 45:5  I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is  no God besides me:

Isa. 45:21 … and  there is  no God else besides me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. 

Same translation issue as above.

Isa. 45:22 … for I am God, and  there is  none else.

Isa. 46:9 … for  I  am  God, and  there is  none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

Here "I" is the subject "God" is the descriptor.
It is the Lord speaking.

Jer. 10:10 But the LORD is the true God, he is the living God, and an everlasting king:…

Yes, Jesus is living, and the King of Israel.

Joel 2:27 … I am the LORD your God, and none else: …

Just a restatement of the previous.

Mark 12:32 … for there is one God; and there is none other but he:

Spoken by a scribe quoting the Old Testament, the sentiment is addressed above.

1Cor. 8:4 … there is none other God but one.

Yay, finally! This is where it gets interesting.
First, in John 6:46, Jesus said no one has seen the Father, also addressing in that chapter that he was the bread of life, and he was the bread of Life. Jesus, Lord, in who's name we worship God the Father.
Now notice in 1 Cor 8:
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
If Jesus was "God", and there is only one God then he would have not used an "and" distinguishing Jesus as "Lord" who is solub-ordinate to the Father.
And, yet, Jesus is the Son of God, because, according to Jesus, God declares those into whom the word of God came as "gods".

John 17:3 …that they might know thee the only true God,…

AND Jesus Christ (the Lord who was "God" of the Old Testament), whom thou hast sent.
Go figure.

Eph. 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Prior verse,
"5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism"
The one followed by faith, and covenanted with in the Old Testament.

1 Tim. 2:5 For there is one God, …

...and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
(The one who gave the Law in the Old Testament)

James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

Yes, who we worship in the name of the Son.

 

[dberrie2020]

I disagree. it says "We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly."
I'm sure others have felt the same way or there wouldn't be so many translations of the Bible.

Theo has claimed this is a false interpretation:

2 Corinthians 4:4---New Living Translation
4 Satan, who is the god of this world, has blinded the minds of those who don’t believe. They are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News. They don’t understand this message about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God.

So, Theo--do we need to discuss the "as far as it is translated correctly" condition?

 

[Mike McK]

Whereas, salvation comes by disobedience to the gospel?

OK. You’re moving the goalposts quite a bit, so let’s recap here.
You said “But our works are a result because of our love for God, not to earn a status or position.”
This quote shows that Mormonism does teach one must adhere to the “ordinances and laws of the gospel” to be saved.
Thus, your claim that Mormons’ works are not to earn a status or position is demonstrably false.

That would be contrary to Romans 1:5 "By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name"

First, grossly out of context.

Second, nothing here about works being required to earn salvation.

Yes, by our fruits we are known. (Matt 7:16)

Once again, your own authorities show that your claim is wrong.
Incidentally, Talmadge wasn’t talking about how we are known, but how we are saved.

Please notice the underlined words in the quote you cited. Are we talking about salvation or exaltation? They are not the same.

Since you did not distinguish between the two, but only said “a status or position”, either one of them, as either one would be a “status or position”.

Hmmm...sounds very similar to:
Phil 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Not really, since McConkie is saying we are saved by works.

Interesting...how does that work? If I died before I had a chance to do work for my own deceased relatives then getting my own salvation is null avoid? What good is doing work for the dead when the dead can't work for their dead? Do explain. Methinks you're taking this out of context.

I’m open to correction. If you think I’m taking it out of context, then please show us what you believe to be the whole context.

Oh look... EXALTATION not SALVATION

And…?

Again, exaltation not salvation.

Again, you did not specify. You simply said “status and position”.

Once again, exaltation not salvation.

And once again, you said “status and position”, which would include exaltation.

If you're going to quote me, please do so accurately. I said: "works are a RESULT because of our love for God, not to earn a status or position."

Either way, I have provided numerous Mormon quotes and sources (and can provide many more) that show this is not true.

Likewise, Good works of service and devotion are necessary to be a disciple of Christ.

Which is precisely the opposite of what the Bible says. We do not pay any dues of good works or service to be a disciple of Christ.

You've cited many works required for exaltation. Clearly, you can't distinguish salvation from exaltation in Mormonism.

I can only go by what you said. You said, “status and position“, which does not distinguish between salvation and exaltation, but includes BOTH.

Moreover, you seem to think quoting just anything Mormon is doctrine which is a fallacy.

I see. So, Pearl of Great Price and Journal of Discourses are not accurate representations of Mormon doctrine?
And James Talmadge, Spencer W. Kimball, Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Bruce McConkie, et al, do not accurately represent Mormon doctrine?

I think an awful lot of Mormons would disagree with you.

This is basically saying the church can't save you, which is entirely accurate. We must be converted to the gospel, not the church.

Here you go:

Apostle Bruce McConkie states: "There is no salvation outside The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Mormon Doctrine, p.670).

Marion Romney (speaking as a member of the LDS First Presidency) said, "This Church is the ensign on the mountain spoken of by the Old Testament prophets. It is the way, the truth, and the life" (Conference Report, April, 1961, pg. 119).

Mormon president and prophet Brigham Young declared: "he that confesseth not that Jesus has come in the flesh and sent Joseph Smith with the fullness of the Gospel to this generation, is not of God, but is anti-christ" (Journal of Discourses, vol.9, p.312).

Mormon president and prophet Ezra Taft Benson stated: "This is not just another Church. This is not just one of a family of Christian churches. This is THE Church and kingdom of God, THE only true Church upon the face of the earth..." (Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, p.164-165).

[There is] "no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith" (Joseph Fielding Smith, in Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.190).

"No man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith" (Brigham Young, in Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p.289).

Bruce McConkie states: "If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation" (Mormon Doctrine, p.670).

Joseph Fielding Smith said: "If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth...no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.190).

Brigham Young stated: "every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p.289).

George Q. Cannon: "If we get our salvation, we shall have to pass by him [Joseph Smith]; if we enter our glory, it will be through the authority he has received. We cannot get around him [Joseph Smith]" (quoted in the Melchizedek Priesthood Study Guide, p. 142, 1988).

Maybe we can take Jesus at his word: Unto whom the word of God came, He calls them "gods". (John 10:35)

Or, we could look at the passage Jesus is quoting and see for ourselves, from the context, that He is not literally calling them gods, but stating that they rule with authority granted by God, and are being rebuked for ruling unjustly.

Could you explain how you believe that is any different than the testimony of the scriptures found here?

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Simple. One is talking about earning salvation, one is talking about following Christ’s commands. Hebrews 5:9 never suggests that we earn our salvation by being obedient. Nor does the rest of the passage, which you conveniently failed to quote.

So--that begs the question--did these become gods--or were they gods all along?

John 10:34-35---King James Version
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

Neither. They weren’t gods at all. Jesus was referring to an Old Testament passage in which God is rebuking magistrates and rulers who have been given authority by God, but who are not ruling justly.

 

[Aaron32]

OK. You’re moving the goalposts quite a bit, so let’s recap here.
You said “But our works are a result because of our love for God, not to earn a status or position.”
This quote shows that Mormonism does teach one must adhere to the “ordinances and laws of the gospel” to be saved.
Thus, your claim that Mormons’ works are not to earn a status or position is demonstrably false.

I really don't understand your logic here.
Your conflating what's required for salvation (obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel) with the motive behind action. (earn status or position).

Motive and action aren't mutually exclusive.

Accepting and following Christ is required for salvation. That's a simple fact. Does that mean everyone who follows Christ is seeking to earn status or position? No.

First, grossly out of context.

Can you expound further, or is this just a blind accusation?

Second, nothing here about works being required to earn salvation.

How is obedience not a "work"?

Once again, your own authorities show that your claim is wrong.

Huh? Please clarify.

Incidentally, Talmadge wasn’t talking about how we are known, but how we are saved.

So you believe in antinomianism? The Lawless receives salvation?

Since you did not distinguish between the two, but only said “a status or position”, either one of them, as either one would be a “status or position”.

Again, your one-liner text is jibberish. I really don't know what you're trying to say. It seems like you're just seeking to be argumentative.

Not really, since McConkie is saying we are saved by works.

And the Bible says "work out your salvation". People see what they want to see, I guess. But it sounds like your saying "no work required".

I’m open to correction. If you think I’m taking it out of context, then please show us what you believe to be the whole context.

I'll do the leg work once you showing willingness to see the difference between salvation and exaltation. Until then, I would probably just be wasting my time.

And…?

Again, you did not specify. You simply said “status and position”.

And once again, you said “status and position”, which would include exaltation.

And you were falsely teaching how Mormons believe they were SAVED.
You're bringing up conditions of salvation, but then your identify works for Exaltation.

Either way, I have provided numerous Mormon quotes and sources (and can provide many more) that show this is not true.

And this is because you think you understand mormon doctrine. You believe we are a cult and don't believe in personal revelation.
You believe we equate our General Authorities as God and deny the Holy Ghost relying on the arm of the flesh.
Go ahead and copy/paste all the anti material you want, but at the end of the day just remember you didn't generate or identify these sources on your own. You, yourself, are a perpetuator of the cultish beliefs of anti-mormonism.

Which is precisely the opposite of what the Bible says. We do not pay any dues of good works or service to be a disciple of Christ.

Really? So I can unrepentantly commit sin, commit adultery, beat my wife, steal, murder, and still declare myself a disciple of Christ?
What a worthless gospel to believe in.

I can only go by what you said. You said, “status and position“, which does not distinguish between salvation and exaltation, but includes BOTH.

So why are you making judgments on Mormonism, when you don't understand it?

I see. So, Pearl of Great Price and Journal of Discourses are not accurate representations of Mormon doctrine?

the Pearl of Great Price is part of our Standard Works, by which we measure every man's doctrine.
The Journal of Discourses is not a standard work.

And James Talmadge, Spencer W. Kimball, Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Bruce McConkie, et al, do not accurately represent Mormon doctrine?

It depends on the statement. Statements that are not in alignment with the Standard Works are not accurate representations of Mormon doctrine.

I think an awful lot of Mormons would disagree with you.

Appeal to popularity. It doesn't matter. The Church has a handbook. The guidelines are given.

Here you go:

Apostle Bruce McConkie states: "There is no salvation outside The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Mormon Doctrine, p.670).

Yes. The church is the only one with authority to baptize. It doesn't mean we are to place Church as the object of our worship.

Marion Romney (speaking as a member of the LDS First Presidency) said, "This Church is the ensign on the mountain spoken of by the Old Testament prophets. It is the way, the truth, and the life" (Conference Report, April, 1961, pg. 119).

Yes. It's built on the foundation of prophets and apostles, Christ being the chief cornerstone. It doesn't mean the Church is the object of our worship.

Mormon president and prophet Brigham Young declared: "he that confesseth not that Jesus has come in the flesh and sent Joseph Smith with the fullness of the Gospel to this generation, is not of God, but is anti-christ" (Journal of Discourses, vol.9, p.312).

Yes. Joseph Smith brought forth the Book of Mormon. If you are denying it's truthfulness, you may as well reject the Bible also.

Mormon president and prophet Ezra Taft Benson stated: "This is not just another Church. This is not just one of a family of Christian churches. This is THE Church and kingdom of God, THE only true Church upon the face of the earth..." (Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, p.164-165).

Yes. One Lord, One faith, One baptism. - found in the LDS Church. It still doesn't mean we place the Church as our object of worship.

[There is] "no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith" (Joseph Fielding Smith, in Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.190).

Or whoever that person could have/would have been through which the priesthood was restored through.

"No man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith" (Brigham Young, in Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p.289).

Yes. Priesthood is required. Joseph Smith restored it.

Bruce McConkie states: "If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation" (Mormon Doctrine, p.670).

Yes. Priesthood is required. Joseph Smith restored it.

Joseph Fielding Smith said: "If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth...no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.190).

Yep. Still doesn't make the Church our object of worship.

Brigham Young stated: "every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p.289).

George Q. Cannon: "If we get our salvation, we shall have to pass by him [Joseph Smith]; if we enter our glory, it will be through the authority he has received. We cannot get around him [Joseph Smith]" (quoted in the Melchizedek Priesthood Study Guide, p. 142, 1988).

Same principle. Joseph Smith restored the priesthood. The priesthood is required for salvation.

Or, we could look at the passage Jesus is quoting and see for ourselves, from the context, that He is not literally calling them gods, but stating that they rule with authority granted by God, and are being rebuked for ruling unjustly.

How's that different from what I said?
a god = [a person who] rule with authority granted by God

 

[Mike McK]

I really don't understand your logic here.
Your conflating what's required for salvation (obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel) with the motive behind action. (earn status or position).

I think I quoted enough Mormon leaders and sources on this to make it clear that your claim was not true.

Your claim was that Mormons don't believe works are necessary to obtain "status or positions". I provided several Mormon sources that show they do.

Accepting and following Christ is required for salvation. That's a simple fact.

No, actually, it's not.

The Bible never says it's up to us to accept Christ. To the contrary, it says that it's Christ's prerogative to accept or reject us.

Following Christ isn't required for salvation. Following Christ is the natural result of salvation.

If following Christ were required for salvation, the Bible would define what it means to follow Christ and would give us the necessary steps to be saved.

Does that mean everyone who follows Christ is seeking to earn status or position? No.

People who are following Christ don't share the Mormon view that works are required for "status or position".

Can you expound further, or is this just a blind accusation?

No blind accusation here. Anybody with even a modicum of reading comprehension can see that you started quoting in the middle. The fact that the verse begins with, "By whom..." should have told you that.

How is obedience not a "work"?

You took my words out of context. I didn't say obedience is not a work. I said that there is nothing in this verse about being obedient to the law to earn salvation.

Huh? Please clarify.

Simple. You claimed that Mormons do not do works to earn "status or positions". They say Mormons do. Pretty simple.

So you believe in antinomianism? The Lawless receives salvation?

Can't imagine how you got that from "Talmadge wasn’t talking about how we are known, but how we are saved".

Again, your one-liner text is jibberish.

You said Mormons do not do works to earn "status or positions". Why I provided evidence from numerous Mormon sources that say Mormons do, you tried to move the goal posts from "status and positions" to the difference between salvation and exaltation.

I merely pointed out, by quoting your own words, that you did not specify salvation or exaltation and so, my point is still valid.

And the Bible says "work out your salvation".

Out of context.

People see what they want to see, I guess. But it sounds like your saying "no work required".

Exactly. Christians believe the Bible's teaching that no work is required and no work is sufficient.

I'll do the leg work once you showing willingness to see the difference between salvation and exaltation. Until then, I would probably just be wasting my time.

Why? You did not distinguish between salvation and exaltation. You merely said, "status and positions".

It's not my fault you can't articulate your thoughts clearly. But then, you've admitted several times now that you're unable to keep up.

And you were falsely teaching how Mormons believe they were SAVED.

Actually, all I did was quote Mormon sources and leaders. If you believe they're false, then the responsibility is on you to explain why.

You're bringing up conditions of salvation, but then your identify works for Exaltation.

Once again, you did not distinguish between salvation and exaltation. You simply said, "status and positions".

It's dishonest of you to move the goal posts.

And this is because you think you understand mormon doctrine.

If you think the Mormon sources and authorities I've quoted do not understand Mormon doctrine, then please feel free to tell us why they're wrong.

Go ahead and copy/paste all the anti material you want

How is Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price "anti material"?

Are you claiming Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Talmadge, et al, are "anti Mormonism"?

, but at the end of the day just remember you didn't generate or identify these sources on your own.

That's true. These are not my sources, but Mormon sources.

You, yourself, are a perpetuator of the cultish beliefs of anti-mormonism.

Once again, all I did was quote Mormon sources.

Really? So I can unrepentantly commit sin, commit adultery, beat my wife, steal, murder, and still declare myself a disciple of Christ?
What a worthless gospel to believe in.

Once again, not even remotely what I said. I said that we cannot be saved by works we perform.

So why are you making judgments on Mormonism, when you don't understand it?

That's the great thing about being able to quote Mormon sources. It doesn't matter whether or not I understand it because I'm not the one saying these things. It's your own leaders.

Incidentally, I do understand Mormonism. Very well, in fact.

the Pearl of Great Price is part of our Standard Works, by which we measure every man's doctrine.

But when I quoted it, you said it was wrong and "anti [Mormon]". Which is it?

The Journal of Discourses is not a standard work.

So, if Journal of Discourses is not an accurate representation of Mormonism, what is its purpose?

It depends on the statement. Statements that are not in alignment with the Standard Works are not accurate representations of Mormon doctrine.

So, Journal of Discourses is wrong?

Appeal to popularity.

Actually, it's not.

An argumentum ad populum fallacy would be if I said something is correct because a lot of people believe it (eg. "50,000,000 Elvis Fans Can't Be Wrong"). All I said is that a lot of people in your religion do not share your view.

It doesn't matter. The Church has a handbook. The guidelines are given.

And what is this guidebook?

If I were to quote this handbook, would you accept it?

Yes. The church is the only one with authority to baptize. It doesn't mean we are to place Church as the object of our worship.

Yes. It's built on the foundation of prophets and apostles, Christ being the chief cornerstone. It doesn't mean the Church is the object of our worship.

So then, you admit that what they said is true?

Yes. Joseph Smith brought forth the Book of Mormon. If you are denying it's truthfulness, you may as well reject the Bible also.

Why? This is what is known as a false equivalency fallacy. The Book of Mormon is not the Bible.

Yes.

Thank you.

Yes.

Yes.

Thank you.

Same principle. Joseph Smith restored the priesthood. The priesthood is required for salvation.

The Bible doesn't say anything like this.

How's that different from what I said?
a god = [a person who] rule with authority granted by God

It's very different. Mormons believe man can literally be exalted and turn into a god.

 

[Janice Bower]

Mormons believe the Bible to be the word of God. It's in our articles of faith.

Let's look at the above misrepresentation again:

We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
- Articles of Faith #8

The Articles of Faith: 13 Beliefs | Come unto Christ

Written in 1842 by the Prophet Joseph Smith, these 13 statements explain the basic doctrines and practices of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

www.churchofjesuschrist.org

“I told the brethren,” he said, “that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book.”
Joseph Smith, Jr., November 28, 1841

 

[Janice Bower]

Mormons need to explain how their convoluted word "salvation" differs from "exaltation."

Exaltation
The highest state of happiness and glory in the celestial kingdom.

Exaltation

Exaltation

www.churchofjesuschrist.org

The Saints shall receive their inheritance and be made equal with him, D&C 88:107.

These angels did not abide my law; therefore, they remain separately and singly, without exaltation, D&C 132:17.

 

[Aaron32]

I think I quoted enough Mormon leaders and sources on this to make it clear that your claim was not true.

Your claim was that Mormons don't believe works are necessary to obtain "status or positions". I provided several Mormon sources that show they do.

So basically, your arguing against an imaginary argument. Re-read post # 5
Janice asked: "That requires man to work, does it not?"
I said: "Yes. But our works are a result because of our love for God, not to earn a status or position."

No, actually, it's not.

The Bible never says it's up to us to accept Christ. To the contrary, it says that it's Christ's prerogative to accept or reject us.

If it's not up to us, then why is there even a choice?

Following Christ isn't required for salvation. Following Christ is the natural result of salvation.

This is simply nit-picking. I'm going to assume you agree with my inital statement: "our works are a result because of our love for God"

If following Christ were required for salvation, the Bible would define what it means to follow Christ and would give us the necessary steps to be saved.

I believe he has, which is why the great commission he gave the apostles was to baptize all nations.
The Book of Mormon provides that plain and precious truth.

People who are following Christ don't share the Mormon view that works are required for "status or position".

I disagree. dberrie has shown multiple biblical evidences that obedience is necessary for the status of "saved".

No blind accusation here. Anybody with even a modicum of reading comprehension can see that you started quoting in the middle. The fact that the verse begins with, "By whom..." should have told you that.

Sorry, I'm not going to fish through prior posts to understand what you're talking about.

You took my words out of context. I didn't say obedience is not a work. I said that there is nothing in this verse about being obedient to the law to earn salvation.

Non-sequitur.
If the verse says "work out your salvation" some form of "work" is implied.
The "law" we follow is described here:
Romans 8:
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Simple. You claimed that Mormons do not do works to earn "status or positions". They say Mormons do. Pretty simple.

*smh* addressed above

You said Mormons do not do works to earn "status or positions". Why I provided evidence from numerous Mormon sources that say Mormons do, you tried to move the goal posts from "status and positions" to the difference between salvation and exaltation.

I'm moving on. You clearly misunderstood me from the beginning.
I'll leave petty argument "gotcha games" for others.

Have a good day.

 

[Aaron32]

Let's look at the above misrepresentation again:

We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
- Articles of Faith #8

The Articles of Faith: 13 Beliefs | Come unto Christ

Written in 1842 by the Prophet Joseph Smith, these 13 statements explain the basic doctrines and practices of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

www.churchofjesuschrist.org

“I told the brethren,” he said, “that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book.”
Joseph Smith, Jr., November 28, 1841

So, Janice, do you believe the Bible as far as it is incorrectly translated to be the word of God?
Or are you saying all translations of the Bible are perfectly translated and are the word of God?

If so, feel free to answer my question here: https://forums.carm.org/threads/deut-4-35-beside-or-besides.14081/