Will the war of Armageddon really be fought against non believing Jews?

Yahweh will increase

Well-known member
Then what do you do with these passages from Revelation 12 and 13 below.


Revelation 12:17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.


Did you never notice that John says that the war will be fought against born again believers who through the Spirit keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus Christ?

Revelation 13:5 The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise its authority for forty-two months. 6 It opened its mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven. 7 It was given power to wage war against God’s holy people and to conquer them. And it was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation. 8 All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.[b]

9 Whoever has ears, let them hear.


Since when can unbelieving Jews be called
"God's holy people"?
 
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Revelation 16:14 tells us who will come to fight against Jesus at Armageddon.

Revelation 12 is about the followers of Jesus, some will be kept safe and some must face persecution.
How those of Gods people will be divided, is shown in Daniel 11:32
 
Revelation 16:14 tells us who will come to fight against Jesus at Armageddon.
And Revelation 12:17 and Revelation 13:5-8 reveals who the beast will make war with and it isn't unconverted Israel like the apostate churches are claiming it is and that is my point.

You also are obviously not understanding the symbolism used in Revelation, for they fight against Jesus first by fighting against his people the church and Revelation 16:14 only speaks of who they are who come against him and his church.

But Revelation 12:17 and Revelation 13:5-8 reveals who the Beast will make war with first and it is not unbelieving Jews but rather the church and both of these passages very clearly reveal this also.

Here read them and ask yourself how they could be unbelieving Jews when it says "who keep the commandments of God and hold fast to the testimony of Jesus Christ and also when they are called "God's Holy People".


Revelation 12:17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.


Revelation 13:5 The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise its authority for forty-two months. 6 It opened its mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven. 7 It was given power to wage war against God’s holy people and to conquer them.


They are believers and which means that the majority of the churches are teaching falsely in claiming that the war of Armageddon will be a war against unconverted Israel.

Revelation 12 is about the followers of Jesus, some will be kept safe and some must face persecution.
How those of Gods people will be divided, is shown in Daniel 11:32

So then you agree with scriptures that the war of Armageddon will be against the church and not unconverted Israel of the flesh right?


This also means that the pre trib rapture doctrine is false, for if the church is taken out of the world before Armageddon like they falsely teach and believe, then there would be no believers in Jesus for the beast to war against, but it very clearly reveals it will be the Christians both Jew and Gentile who the Beast will make war with.
 
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No.

Your assertions and wild guesses are too far out for comment.
Just go by what the Bible says and don't add anything.
And that is why you couldn't refute what I showed right from Revelation 12:17 and Revelation 13:5-8 also but instead you tell me just go by what the Bible says and as if it is me who is not doing just that and that is called passing judgment on another for what you are guilty of yourself.

So where does the Bible say that the war will be against unconverted Jews and I will show you that you are misunderstanding what is actually being revealed in those passage whatever they may be.

Revelation is full of figurative language and symbolic images and too many people attempt to understand it from a totally literal perspective and that is why John keep saying "let him who has ears to hear, hear what the Spirit is saying.

Sorry but Revelation 12:17 and also Revelation 13:5-8 very clearly show that the serpent or dragons war of Armageddon is not against the unconverted Jews but against those who hold to the testimony of Jesus Christ and which makes them believers and not unconverted Jews like your churches are falsely teaching about it.

This is what happens when people try to understand the Bible through their natural flesh instead of by the Spirit, for they will read right past very important clues of truth in the scriptures and all because the Devil blinds their eyes from seeing it as God allows because they are not being honest with him when reading the scriptures to start with.

17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.


So we see then that the beast makes war against the church and not unconverted Jews, for it very clearly says that they hold to their testimony of Jesus Christ and which could never be said about any unconverted Jew.


Revelation 13:5 The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise its authority for forty-two months. 6 It opened its mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven. 7 It was given power to wage war against God’s holy people and to conquer them. And it was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation. 8 All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.


Very clearly, John tells us that the war of the beast which is called Armageddon is against GOD'S HOLY PEOPLE and there is no way that unconverted Jews could ever be called GOD'S HOLY PEOPLE and therefore Revelation is clear on this.


Therefore also, you best condition yourself for what is coming, for there isn't going to be any pre trib rapture to deliver anyone and Paul's words in 1 Corinthians 15:22-26 and picking back up in verses 51-58 reveal this very clearly also.

What will deliver true believers will be their true conversion, for God will never forsake them but will reveal everything he wants them to do in order for him to protect them from his judgment, however all of them will suffer great persecution and many of them will also still have to die at the hands of the wicked and especially from those of the apostate churches.
 
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But Revelation 12:17 and Revelation 13:5-8 reveals who the Beast will make war with first and it is not unbelieving Jews but rather the church and both of these passages very clearly reveal this also.
The church is gone before then...raptured near/at the beginning of the tribulation.

The people mentioned here are tribulation saints.
 
The church is gone before then...raptured near/at the beginning of the tribulation.

The people mentioned here are tribulation saints.
However, don't your churches teach that the war will actually be against the whole ethnic nation of unconverted Israel and only when they see Jesus coming in the clouds will they believe in him?

You know good and well that this is what they believe and teach and you even take verses from Romans 11 out of their proper context to say that "all of ethnic Israel will be saved at that time and when if one regards the full context of Paul's words in Romans 9-11, there is no way that they cold ever come up with such a notion.

That isn't what John says however, here read it again.


17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.





If you only would drop your stubbornness and pre conceived false ideas, you might begin to see the errors in this belief.

For in Romans 11, Paul speaks of NT Israel the one who will all be saved as one Single Olive tree from whom the original branches were broken off from and then grafted back in by faith and then he tells us that along with them, were grafted wild branches (the Gentiles) from a wild Olive Tree and therefore the Israel that Paul is speaking of is made up of both Jews and Gentle believers.

Here read it yourself.


Romans 11:16 If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.

17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!



Paul says basically the same thing in Ephesians 2, that the Gentile believers are now also part of the NT Israel of God and nowhere in Romans 9-11 is he ever speaking of the OT Israel of the flesh only but only those of OT Israel who are the election of God by the promise period.

These are the ones who will loose their temporary blindness and in this age eventually believe in Christ and he is not speaking of all of the ethnic Nation.


Part of your problem in this is that you misunderstand what is being revealed in Zechariah 12.


You best condition yourself for it, for there will be no pre trib rapture to deliver those who believe in it from what is coming.
 
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However, don't your churches teach that the war will actually be against the whole ethnic nation of unconverted Israel and only when they see Jesus coming in the clouds will they believe in him?
Rev 13 is pretty much about everyone still remaining in the trib as the horse guy has already killed a lot of people.....it covers a lot of territory.
 
Rev 13 is pretty much about everyone still remaining in the trib as the horse guy has already killed a lot of people.....it covers a lot of territory.
Come on now and get honest, for I have belonged to your churches and know what they teach and they teach that the actual war of the beast will be against whole nation of Israel of the flesh and not primarily against those who will supposedly believe during the tribulation.,

By the way, can you show me from Revelation where it actually even states that anyone will become believers during this time of Tribulation?

I don't see that but just the opposite instead, that even in the judgments men will sill not repent of their unbelief and sin.


Sorry but as much as you want to fight against the truth on this, all believers die physically because God's enemy of sin still exists in their flesh although not any longer in their hearts and this is why they still die pysically.

Therefore although God can resurrect those who have died already anytime he wishes, he can only keep believers from dying physically, when that enemy of sin is totally removed from them in a moment and in the twinkling of an eye and just like Paul says it will happen at the end in 1 Corinthians 15:22-26 and 51-58. below.

You best read it and start believing the truth about it below.


1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ (past tense) , the firstfruits; (Matthew 27:51-53 past tense) then, when he comes, those who belong to him (future tense). 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.


51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”[a]

55 “Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?”[b]
56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

58 Therefore, my dear brothers and sisters, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.
 
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The church is gone before then...raptured near/at the beginning of the tribulation.

The people mentioned here are tribulation saints.
Revelation 9:20 The rest of mankind who were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood—idols that cannot see or hear or walk.


Where are these saints going to come from then, suppose you show us?
 
Come on now and get honest, for I have belonged to your churches and know what they teach and they teach that the actual war of the beast will be against whole nation of Israel of the flesh and not primarily against those who will supposedly believe during the tribulation.,

By the way, can you show me from Revelation where it actually even states that anyone will become believers during this time of Tribulation?

I don't see that but just the opposite instead, that even in the judgments men will sill not repent of their unbelief and sin.


Sorry but as much as you want to fight against the truth on this, all believers die physically because God's enemy of sin still exists in their flesh although not any longer in their hearts and this is why they still die pysically.

Therefore although God can resurrect those who have died already anytime he wishes, he can only keep believers from dying physically, when that enemy of sin is totally removed from them in a moment and in the twinkling of an eye and just like Paul says it will happen at the end in 1 Corinthians 15:22-26 and 51-58. below.

You best read it and start believing the truth about it below.


1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ (past tense) , the firstfruits; (Matthew 27:51-53 past tense) then, when he comes, those who belong to him (future tense). 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.


51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”[a]

55 “Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?”[b]
56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

58 Therefore, my dear brothers and sisters, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.
I'm still trying to figure out where you're going with all of this.
 
I never said that would happen.
What?

Yes you did, because you say that there will be a pre trib rapture before the tribulation that will remove all believers and then you claim that there will be believers present during the Tribulation.

You need to quit playing games here and get down to being totally honest with what Revelation is actually revealing and also what Paul revealed in 1 Corinthians 15:22-26 and 51-58 and which incidentally is all about the one and only future resurrection and rapture of the church.
 
I'm still trying to figure out where you're going with all of this.
I am showing from the scriptures that your churches are teaching falsehood and you know it.

They are teaching falsely about the rapture and they are also teaching falsely about Armageddon and who will be the real target of the beast in that war, for it will be the church and Revelation 12:17 and Revelation 13:5-8 very clearly reveals that it will also.
 
What?

Yes you did, because you say that there will be a pre trib rapture before the tribulation that will remove all believers and then you claim that there will be believers present during the Tribulation.

Oops, my bad, I just re-read it and read "anyone" as "everyone"

Yes, there will be believers during the tribulation.
You need to quit playing games here and get down to being totally honest with what Revelation is actually revealing and also what Paul revealed in 1 Corinthians 15:22-26 and 51-58 and which incidentally is all about the one and only future resurrection and rapture of the church.
I don't deny the pre-tribulation rapture.
 
I am showing from the scriptures that your churches are teaching falsehood and you know it.

They are teaching falsely about the rapture and they are also teaching falsely about Armageddon and who will be the real target of the beast in that war, for it will be the church and Revelation 12:17 and Revelation 13:5-8 very clearly reveals that it will also.
You do know that Rev 13 is not Armageddon???
 
You do know that Rev 13 is not Armageddon???
Sure it is, for it is the war that the Beast wages within his time frame of 42 months or 1, 260 days or a time, times and a half times or 3 1/2 years and which incidentally is also an error of your churches, for it very clearly says in Revelation 13:5-8 that he will only be given 42 months and not 7 years like they falsely believe and teach.


You need to give up on your trying to deny what it actually says CC.
 
Oops, my bad, I just re-read it and read "anyone" as "everyone"

Yes, there will be believers during the tribulation.

Indeed there will be, for there will be no pre trib rapture to deliver them from going through it and like you falsely claim there will be.

For as I have even shown from Revelation 9:20, no one will be repenting to become believers during the judgments of God.

Here it is again below.

Revelation 9:20-21

20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.


I don't deny the pre-tribulation rapture.

Of course not, for it is what you falsely believe and have made yourself comfortable with and also which you have no proof of from the actual scriptures, so what you are denying is the truth about the rapture that Paul clearly reveals in 1 Corinthians 15:22-26 and 51-58.


What are you going to do when you have been pining away for this pre trib rapture and you find out you are going to go through the tribulation after all?

You are going to be totally stressed out because you have believed a lie and you will be running about like a chicken with his head cut off because of it.

Paul makes it very clear that the last enemy that shall be destroyed is the physical death of the believer and also says this about it, 'then comes the end, when he shall deliver the kingdom up unto God even the Father after he has put all enemies including death under his feet".

You better get a hold of this truth and quickly, for the time is fast approaching and there will be no pre trib rapture to deliver you from it either.
 
You do know that Rev 13 is not Armageddon???
I would suggest that you read over all your replies unto me on this subject and understand also that you haven't shown one thing from the actual scriptures themselves to even attempt to refute what I have shown you from the scriptures but instead all you are doing is voicing your unsupported ideas instead.
 
Sure it is, for it is the war that the Beast wages within his time frame of 42 months or 1, 260 days or a time, times and a half times or 3 1/2 years and which incidentally is also an error of your churches, for it very clearly says in Revelation 13:5-8 that he will only be given 42 months and not 7 years like they falsely believe and teach.


You need to give up on your trying to deny what it actually says CC.
Armageddon doesn't happen until Rev 16:16 And they assembled the kings in the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.
 
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