Will Trump pardon himself?

Thistle

Well-known member
No, this kind of thing you WANT it to be justices. Desires aren't expectations.

Best gird your loins for the disappointment you're going to experience on January 20...

You need to pay attention to what the media you are consuming is hiding from you.
 

Whateverman

Well-known member
You need to pay attention to what the media you are consuming is hiding from you.
You need to stop treating Youtube as anything other than entertainment.

The 2020 election will never see a single justice, let alone nine of them...
 

Loki

Active member
It would appear that a president has the ability to pardon him-or-herself. Whether this would survive a SCOTUS challenge is another question, but for the sake of this thread, let's assume such a pardon would be upheld.

Will Trump pardon himself before he leaves office?

Answer Yes, No or I Don't Know, and explain why.
I don't know.

Trump has asserted the right to pardon himself in the past, so I don't think there is any doubt he will attempt it if he feels the risk of criminal prosecution and conviction for publicly known crimes such as obstruction of justice and campaign finance law violations is too great. It wouldn't surprise me if Trump escapes indictment merely because federal prosecutors are disinclined to pursue charges against a former president. This would be a big mistake, in my opinion, because one of our nation's main goals ought to be to discourage such flagrant disregard for the law in future presidents. And although very unlikely, it's possible that Trump could run for president again in 2024. I doubt that most people would want to suffer through another four years of disaster under Trump, but the GOP doesn't need to win a popular majority to win the presidency. It's undemocratic, but that's the crazy system we inherited,

The reasons he won't issue a self-pardon
It seems to me the principal risk of issuing a self-pardon is that it functions as an admission that one has committed a crime. For example, if Trump pardons himself for violating campaign finance laws when he paid a porn star hush money on the eve of the 2016 election, then he is publicly acknowledging that he did, in fact, break the law. If the Supreme Court gives the thumbs down to the legality of a self-pardon (which I think is very likely), Trump will have placed himself in real legal jeopardy. Indictment in this case seems almost certain.

Moreover, even if the Supreme Court were to permit a self-pardon, it would not protect him from state prosecutors in New York where he could very well be guilty of tax fraud and/or other financial crimes. Nor would it protect him from being widely viewed as a criminal who abused the powers of his office with corrupt intent, even among many of his supporters. A successful self-pardon would be one of the most significant political scandals in the history of our country. It would likely result in demands for reform of the Supreme Court and a Constitutional Amendment to directly address the matter.

The reasons he will issue a self-pardon
Of course, Trump doesn't care about anyone or anything but himself, so he would have no compunctions about plunging the nation into a Constitutional crisis so long as he views it as beneficial to himself. Trump might try the self-pardon because he is at heart a huckster, a malignant narcissist and demagogue who has learned firsthand that there is a great reservoir of gullibility and servility in his supporters, who continually display the sort of personal loyalty to him that one normally only encounters in a cult.

He may well fall back on his usual method of playing the demagogue on Twitter, stirring up so much division and anger with his dishonest and absurd claims so as to create a political environment toxic enough to dissuade prosecutors from pursuing criminal charges. This seems to me a very risky play, but the man is a mentally disordered imbecile who surrounds himself with toadies and yes-men. And there doesn't appear to be any limit to the absurdities of right-wing propagandists when it comes to defending Trump.

No one knows what Trump will do
The Trump supporters dismissing the possibility of a self-pardon as silly on this forum consistently strike me as too emotionally invested in the president's propaganda to offer a sober, rational view of matters. My guess is if Trump tries a self-pardon, they will flip to defensive mode, declaring that a self-pardon functions in this case merely as a shield to protect the president from the ravenous wolves of his detractors. In other words, they will dismiss the possibility as silly right up until it isn't anymore, even though the man's penchant for dishonesty and self-serving corruption is beyond dispute at this point.

Even if Trump decides the risks of a self-pardon are too great, he has publicly declared that it is a legal option available to him. He himself has made this an issue, and it is a form of corruption to go even that far in my view. We're not out of this yet. There is still much damage that Trump can do before January 20. Therefore, the American public has the duty to take Trump's threats seriously and make it clear to him there will be legal consequences for any law-breaking or corruption in these last pathetic and disgraceful days of his administration.
 

Whateverman

Well-known member
I don't know. [.. snip ..]
I answered my own question differently, but I pretty much agree with almost every part of your analysis here. I've seen other people saying the same things, as well: a self-pardon might not get past the SCOTUS, it might represent an admission of guilt, whether it'd result in a constitutional crisis wouldn't matter in the least to the current white house occupant, etc.

Thanks. Your post was the best this thread has seen yet, in-part due to it being sincere as well as comprehensive.
 

Loki

Active member
I answered my own question differently, but I pretty much agree with almost every part of your analysis here. I've seen other people saying the same things, as well: a self-pardon might not get past the SCOTUS, it might represent an admission of guilt, whether it'd result in a constitutional crisis wouldn't matter in the least to the current white house occupant, etc.

Thanks. Your post was the best this thread has seen yet, in-part due to it being sincere as well as comprehensive.
Thanks for your gracious comments.

I tried to start up a discussion on this topic before the election and was frankly astonished at the dismissiveness and anger I encountered from Trump supporters. Why was there so much the bitter resistance in light of the president's own assertions to the right to a self-pardon? Some appeared to be angered at the mere suggestion of an electoral loss for Trump, but my guess is at first blush even Trump's most ardent supporters recognize the inherent corruption of the self-pardon, and resented the imputation of lawbreaking and malfeasance to the president. Of course, if Trump does issue a self-pardon, I have no doubt that we will start seeing his supporters parroting the most absurd propaganda in the president's defense, even going so far as to blame Biden for forcing him to do it.
 

Thistle

Well-known member
That's not the 2020 election.
What part of 11/6/2020 are you missing?
That's the election process in a single state, and one process that didn't have any effect on the vote tally - but you knew that already, didn'tcha?
It's a process issue which may involve as many as 600 thousand votes. This particular article mentions 500 thousand, but it depends on who you listen to. Point being, there are process issues like this in all the swing states. And yes the Supreme Court has shown willingness to engage.
 

Loki

Active member
That's not the 2020 election. That's the election process in a single state, and one process that didn't have any effect on the vote tally - but you knew that already, didn'tcha?
Your correspondent exemplifies precisely what I meant when I wrote above that Trump supporters have by-and-large been too emotionally invested in propaganda to be able to apprehend all the relevant facts and discuss matters in a sober and rational manner. The president's lawyers have no cohesive strategy and are getting laughed out of court with all these frivolous lawsuits, yet there are some who continue to misrepresent and exaggerate the significance of court rulings and judicial orders, all the while insisting that any day now the evidence that is going to overturn a free and fair election will emerge.
 

Loki

Active member
Does ordering someone to do something they are already doing count? Is that the best you can do?
What part of 11/6/2020 are you missing?

It's a process issue which may involve as many as 600 thousand votes. This particular article mentions 500 thousand, but it depends on who you listen to. Point being, there are process issues like this in all the swing states. And yes the Supreme Court has shown willingness to engage.
Amazing how ready Trump supporters are to disenfranchise voters for sake of a "process issue."

And no, the New York Post article you linked does not mention 500 thousand votes. It quotes Pennsylvania Secretary of State Kathy Boockvar that various counties had reported "from zero to…about 500 ballots received the day after Election Day."

That's 500, not 500,000. Did you even read the article you linked? I corrected you on these numbers days ago and here you are still spreading misinformation.

Boockvar went on to observe that, "unless it is super close, I don’t see them making or breaking this [election] one way or another." Don't you think that is a relevant remark from the Pennsylvania Secretary of State? Why didn't you mention it?
 

Authentic Nouveau

Well-known member
This may come as a shock to you but it's not a crime to be audited, or undergo a Gaming Commission exam.

If he still have a gaming license I'd be shocked. My understanding is that he's been out of the gaming business for quite some time.
It is routine to be audited. I have Our company retirement plans audited and company financials.
 

Authentic Nouveau

Well-known member
That's not the 2020 election. That's the election process in a single state, and one process that didn't have any effect on the vote tally - but you knew that already, didn'tcha?
I guess you didn't read. it was 2020.

Are you proud of your cesspool media and their refusal to investigate?
 
Top