Without Jesus

treeplanter

Well-known member
Without Jesus our lives have no ultimate meaning


At least, this is what many Christians have claimed right here on CARM

Without Jesus we might as well fulfill our every whim and desire - paying no heed to the consequence to ourselves or others

At least, this is what many Christians have claimed right here on CARM

Funny thing, though...

I live without Jesus and it has never once occurred to me that my life is without ultimate meaning
I live without Jesus and I have never once contemplated placing my own self gratification above and beyond consequence

This OP has been edited per mod.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Semmelweis Reflex

Active member
Without Jesus our lives have no ultimate meaning
Nihilism reigns
At least, this is what many Christians have claimed right here on CARM

Without Jesus we might as well fulfill our every whim and desire - paying no heed to the consequence to ourselves or others
Hedonism reigns
At least, this is what many Christians have claimed right here on CARM

Funny thing, though...

I live without Jesus and it has never once occurred to me that my life is without ultimate meaning
I live without Jesus and I have never once contemplated placing my own self gratification above and beyond consequence

Could it be that these Christians are Christians only because they are, at heart, nihilists and hedonists seeking to suppress their baser instincts?

Sure sounds like it...

Could be. There could be many reasons Christians are Christians or claim to be Christians. Same with nihilists and hedonists. But you aren't so critical of nihilists and hedonists? It's an ideological fixation for you, the Christian thing, isn't it? Unless you get some entertainment or enlightenment out of it I think it a terrible waste of time and energy.

Maybe some day you will be able to let it go?
 

Caroljeen

Well-known member
I take it you, yourself, have never offered, such as the above, when confronted with an absence of belief in Jesus?
I'm not sure what you mean by "offered, such as the above".
As an atheist, I never went to those extremes. I didn't think it through to it's logical conclusion. If I had taken more philosophy courses in university maybe I would have.
As a Christian, I wonder why I didn't. What restrained me? I believe it must be the conscience that God gave me.
 
Last edited:

5wize

Well-known member
Could be. There could be many reasons Christians are Christians or claim to be Christians. Same with nihilists and hedonists. But you aren't so critical of nihilists and hedonists? It's an ideological fixation for you, the Christian thing, isn't it? Unless you get some entertainment or enlightenment out of it I think it a terrible waste of time and energy.

Maybe some day you will be able to let it go?
Why let it go? We are all intrigued by the topic of man's relationship to reality. A God concept has always been part of the human condition. Kicking the tires is healthy. Who knows? Maybe something will break... the right argument will be made.

But in this thread a good argument is being made for an under-current - a basis - of belief in our condition that requires salvation. Is that condition really true?
 

Semmelweis Reflex

Active member
It's a given. The alchemy of their belief is that they are hopeless sinners. Hopeless = nihilism. Sinner = hedonists.

It's how they define themselves.

If they have hope for salvation from sin it isn't hopeless. Plus there is inherited sin (environmental) and gross sin (practice). The latter an acknowledgment of possible successful abstinence. A work in progress.
 

Caroljeen

Well-known member
It's a given. The alchemy of their belief is that they are hopeless sinners. Hopeless = nihilism. Sinner = hedonists.
You have it twisted.

Before Christ came into my life, I was (past tense) a hopeless sinner. Now I'm a forgiven child of God with hope.
 

treeplanter

Well-known member
Could be. There could be many reasons Christians are Christians or claim to be Christians. Same with nihilists and hedonists. But you aren't so critical of nihilists and hedonists? It's an ideological fixation for you, the Christian thing, isn't it? Unless you get some entertainment or enlightenment out of it I think it a terrible waste of time and energy.

Maybe some day you will be able to let it go?
Indeed, I most certainly am NOT as critical of Edit per mod

Edited
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Semmelweis Reflex

Active member
Why let it go? We are all intrigued by the topic of man's relationship to reality. A God concept has always been part of the human condition. Kicking the tires is healthy. Who knows? Maybe something will break... the right argument will be made.

I don't buy much of that. It's ideological fixation. Sociopolitical frustration of a tiny minority. Or, in some cases, pissed off ex-Christians. Why let it go under the circumstances I mentioned? Without entertainment or enlightenment? Because it's a waste of your time. Being intrigued or kicking tires or debate are all good reasons to be vocal, IMO, but when it's just an ideological or class struggle? It's just a waste of time. Again, IMO.

It takes two to tango, though. The counter argument of the believer under the same circumstances is equally pointless.
 

Semmelweis Reflex

Active member

I don't think those are good reasons for active participation in the atheist vs theist debate. If I see some lunatic on the corner who thinks they alone are right and I'm doomed for not joining them I steer clear of them, not engage them in argument.

That doesn't explain the apparent hypocrisy evident in some of my recent exchanges here, but I'm an idiot and anyway, everyone has a little hypocrisy hidden away.

I've seen the same sort of mindset in atheists, musicians, artists - as a professional musician and award winning artist - and even on a very small scale that sort of is just human nature. Sports, fashion, politics, ad infinitum.

Just watch you don't become your enemy.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

stiggy wiggy

Well-known member

Like who? Can you copy/paste such sentiments? I was certainly no nihilist before I became a believer in Christ.


Now I WAS a hedonist before Christ and still fight hedonism to some degree, but I certainly never claimed that hedonism REIGNED among unbelievers. I know many unbelievers who are far from being hedonists. So again: Like who? Can you copy/paste such sentiments? I'll bet you can't, meaning we have yet another case of erected straw for the purpose of you, the very creator of said straw, being able to feebly tear it down, for self aggrandizing purposes. It won't work.

But I guess we should all be thankful for a rare arborist OP without the hackneyed phrase "consciously and purposely inflicting needless harm."
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Semmelweis Reflex

Active member
Hopeless is the Christian nomenclature, not mine.

Oh, I see what you mean. Yeah, well, I'm no fan of modern day Christianity, but that makes sense. Sin is hopelessness without the undeserved kindness offered in salvation of Christ Jesus.

The base condition is hopeless without an externality imposed (Jesus). Is that externality as culturally guaranteed as the base condition?

If I understand what is exactly meant by "culturally guaranteed as the base condition" I think the answer is no, and that's the thing. Modern day "Christians" are unrealistic in many ways. The first human couple failed and brought death to everyone, all but a few survived the flood, of the tens of thousands that left slavery in Egypt two made it to the promised land, their leader, Moses himself not one of those.

Salvation by righteousness is a Jewish belief. Salvation by Grace is the Christian belief.

Well, they both are far removed from their origins.

There is NOTHING the Christian can do.

Probably for the best.
 

Caroljeen

Well-known member
What I mean to ask is if you, as a Christian, have ever asserted that we {the human race} would inevitably fall into nihilism and/or hedonism without the influence of Jesus Christ
I may have worded it differently in my thoughts.
I have never asserted that Jesus Christ and his followers are the super glue that keeps this world from plunging headfirst into hell but I may have heard preaching to that effect many years ago.
 

Semmelweis Reflex

Active member
Would you stop a lunatic from psychologically hurting a child if you were capable?

Their child? Would that be my call? Maybe someone will see atheism as psychologically harmful, or wokeism in it's various manifestations.


No, because it's a waste of time. I may express some criticism but I'm not going to devote much time or thought to it.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Caroljeen

Well-known member
They belief you maintain about the relationship you have with god is a cultural norm. Jesus is not a culturally ubiquitous belief.
No, it's not a cultural norm for me. I had a relationship with God first before I set my feet inside a church or joined a fellowship of believers.
I wasn't trying to "fit in" with other believers. If they had rejected me, I would still have continued to have a relationship with God. The belief I have is in a living, real God who exists. Why would you equate a relationship with God to a cultural norm?
Which means that if Jesus is the hope of an otherwise hopeless condition, many are left hopeless.
It doesn't have to be hopeless.
 
Top