Without theism, atheism is like Garfunkel without Simon

bigthinker

Well-known member
...
I see A-theists just reacting to the drunk, irrational Christians, but in a self-destructive way, replacing one irrational extreme with another, that is, denying a cause of Good in the universe.
How is it "self-destructive"?
If anything it's a waste of time.
Why do you think that atheism denies a cause of Good in the universe?
You capitalized the word good, do you have a specific good in mind? if yes, what is it?
Atheists don't deny so much as they don't accept the claims of theists. Until there's some evidence, we don't think there's anything to deny, just claims and beliefs we don't accept.
 

Electric Skeptic

Well-known member

SteveB

Well-known member
Many Christians, "yell" at the atheist -who they believe are heading for the cliff. The problem is not that they aren't yelling loudly enough, the problem is that they yell in the wrong language. But not only that, they also blame the atheist -who is the one "headed for the cliff" -from the Christian's perspective- for not understanding the language.
If a Christian is actually interested in making a difference -as opposed to merely pretending or using their humble position as license to judge others, then they ought to consider learning the language.

We atheists see Christians as being drunk on belief, headed for a flat, open field where there is little danger. The problem is that there is a street full of people between the Christian and the field and the car is out of control. The street is populated with all kinds of people. Many of us atheists "yell" not necessarily to save the drunk Christian headed for the open field but to minimize the damage to other people.

Wrong language eh....
The attached picture is what the bible describes.

All the other roads, plateaus, paths, trails, etc.... all end at a huge crevasse, and flames. That crevasse is at the end of all human life.

Only the cross of Jesus is the path that gets us safely across the crevasse, and into the paradise we were designed for.

So... wrong language.... ok. According to whom?

It's curious that the creator of the cosmos and the human race has chosen the language of preaching the cross of Jesus.

1Co 1:21 WEB For seeing that in the wisdom of God, the world through its wisdom didn’t know God, it was God’s good pleasure through the foolishness of the preaching to save those who believe.

The one person who actually sees everything. Who knows everything, and has given clear information to make sure that we get it.

And don't think for a heartbeat that he doesn't understand that you think it's the wrong language.

There's something about his choosing this method to get the message to you.

Jesus described it as a farmer casting seed for his fields.
It's actually called, broadcasting.


An ancient method of planting seeds.
 

Gus Bovona

Well-known member
The worldwide percentage of those claiming to be atheists is estimated at 7%. Just for fun let's imagine a world in which it were near 100%. Would people gather to discuss their atheism? Are there currently gatherings of people discussing their agreement that the earth is not flat? Are we spheroid earthers as a general rule angry enough at the <.001% of flat earthers to spend hours a day vehemently railing against their beliefs?

I guess my thoughts may have once again gone misleading, but it seems to me that you atheists need us theists to spark any conversation about your lack of belief. Your philosophy is essentially negative in nature. Even if in one of these "atheist clubs"of which Gus was a member (though he may have been kidding), the members were to discuss the atheist philosophy of Nietzsche versus that of Voltaire, devoid of those two guys' rabid polemics against theism, there would be little to discuss.

Atheists: Sadly, your philosophy of life needs theism in order to have any meat on its bones. It is a scavenger philosophy eating away at that meat, but with a couple of exceptions I am quite fond of y'all and constantly pray that even the exceptions may ultimately find the Peace that will never come with what is little more than lack of belief.
I hope noting the chance I was kidding (I was not) is an based on an appreciation of whatever humor I've shared here.

I agree that a world without theism would also be a word without people needing to identify as an atheist. There's nothing sad about that, though; There are no more protests against the Vietnam war, a movement that was primarily defined by being against something, but we surely needed those protests.

I just watched a movie on the Flat Earthers, and I think it is still valuable to discuss why people are that deluded. No matter what the topic is, I'm happy to spend a lot of my day helping myself and others to think clearly and rationally. That's why I'm here on CARM. And, yes, if religion and theism were eliminated, it would still be valuable to discuss the (presumed) irrationality of both. Bad thinking is not going to go away anytime soon in the human race, so any case of it would remain valuable as an object lesson, as data, etc.

No less than Christopher Hitchens has made the point that it is always good to go back to first principles. He even used the flat earth example. How is it, actually, that I know that the earth is round? How can I prove that? How can we know that the Holocaust happened? He defended still asking those questions on free speech grounds, and also thought that, often times, those who hold incorrect beliefs have a grain of truth in what they say, and those grains are valuable, too.
 

bigthinker

Well-known member
Wrong language eh....
Yes.
Some Christians are no different than a person who, upon discovering the person with whom they are trying to communicate is deaf, speaks louder expecting it to make a difference.
It is a measure of a person's density to not clue in to the fact that there is a barrier. Atheists don't speak your language and we are not part of your fantasy; we do not believe as you do.
The attached picture is what the bible describes.

All the other roads, plateaus, paths, trails, etc.... all end at a huge crevasse, and flames. That crevasse is at the end of all human life.

Only the cross of Jesus is the path that gets us safely across the crevasse, and into the paradise we were designed for.

So... wrong language.... ok. According to whom?
It is a measure of one's density, one's disconnect from reality to not clue in to the fact that the words you say, the scripture you cite, the things you claim to believe, are meaningless to those who do not already believe as you do.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Yes.
Christian are no different than a person who upon discovering the person with whom they are trying to communicate is deaf, speak louder expecting it to make a difference.
It is a measure of a person's density to not clue in to the fact that there is a barrier. Atheists don't speak your language and we are not part of your fantasy.

It is a measure of one's density, one's disconnect from reality to not clue in to the fact that the words you say, the scripture you cite, the things you claim to believe, are meaningless to those who do not already believe as you do.
Well, if you're deaf, then the written words and the picture should be able to be understood.
 

bigthinker

Well-known member
Well, if you're deaf, then the written words and the picture should be able to be understood.
And because I think, they are not convincing.
It's not a matter of not understanding, it's a matter of not believing.
You're a fool if you believe otherwise.
The key difference is: atheists think while Christians believe.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
And because I think, they are not convincing.
It's not a matter of not understanding, it's a matter of not believing.
You're a fool if you believe otherwise.
The key difference is: atheists think while Christians believe.
Ok.

What you appear to think is that something must be overwhelmingly convincing, to the point where, like inaudible wrestling match, you cry uncle or yield.

The gospel is not like this.

We read that the preaching of the cross of Jesus is foolishness for a reason. 1 Corinthians 1:18

God says that he chose the foolishness of preaching the cross to save those who believe him. 1 Corinthians 1:21

The message doesn't hold you down in the wrestling ring and beat you into accepting it.

It's more like an introduction to a relationship with God, through Jesus.
Those who are intrigued by it, enough to go further finalize the introduction by seeking him on his terms.

Jesus told a community of Jesus followers in western Turkey once that he's standing at the door, knocking. And if anyone hears and opens the door, he will come in, and they will dine together and enjoy a great meal together. Revelation 3:20

This means that you have to make a choice to engage.

Those who are not intrigued enough will move on.

As you and others have so eloquently explained...
It's not convincing enough to you.

In the end, it's you who loses.

As @Dizerner implies, if not outright states, it seems callous to some.

It's not callousness on the part of the preacher/speaker/presenter that is issue.

It's the callousness of the hearer/listener/reader that is the issue.

In the book of Hebrews we read that sin is deceitful, and that unbelief is the result of a hardened/callous heart. Hebrews 3:8, 12, 13, 15, 4:7

People who leave from following Jesus do so because of an evil heart of unbelief. Hebrews 3:12

So, as several preachers I've heard over the years have said....

Jesus is a gentleman. He knocks on the door and if you don't respond, he moves on to the next person.

While this is a good thing, there comes a point where you can exclude yourself from knowing God by disregarding his invitation. 2 Corinthians 6:1-2

We do read that God saves to the uttermost all who come to him through Jesus Christ, who ever lives to pray for us. Hebrews 7:25

God is indeed able and ready and willing to save us, but if we continue to ignore him, he will let us go. Romans 1:18-3:31
 

bigthinker

Well-known member
Ok.

What you appear to think is that something must be overwhelmingly convincing,
Yes.. Like gravity, like a light switch, like Santa delivering presents on Christmas Eve. All of these are overwhelmingly convincing.
to the point where, like inaudible wrestling match, you cry uncle or yield.

The gospel is not like this.
That is correct, the gospel is NOT like that. The gospel is NOT like other stories that are true. It is NOT like other events for which the evidence is overwhelmingly convincing.
We read that the preaching of the cross of Jesus is foolishness for a reason. 1 Corinthians 1:18
Belief in the cross should be included in that characterization.
God says that he chose the foolishness of preaching the cross to save those who believe him. 1 Corinthians 1:21
You're talking a different language, I'm a thinker, not a believer.
The message doesn't hold you down in the wrestling ring and beat you into accepting it.
That's right. it's just like other stories that aren't factually true.
It's more like an introduction to a relationship with God, through Jesus.
Those who are intrigued by it, enough to go further finalize the introduction by seeking him on his terms.
Now, I'm DEFINITELY intrigued by your relationship with your imaginary Jesus.
It's a third person relationship with yourself. Psychologically, I find it fascinating.
Jesus told a community of Jesus followers in western Turkey once that he's standing at the door, knocking. And if anyone hears and opens the door, he will come in, and they will dine together and enjoy a great meal together. Revelation 3:20

This means that you have to make a choice to engage.
That's just Jesus talking.
And besides, he was taking to a community of followers in western Turkey.
What you're doing is like going to a auto repair shop and applying what the mechanic tells the customer ahead of you to your own situation.
What gives you reason to think that words spoken to a group of people in western Turkey applies to you?
Those who are not intrigued enough will move on.
Like I said, I'm intrigued.
As you and others have so eloquently explained...
It's not convincing enough to you.
Right. But YOU'RE convinced and that's fascinating.
In the end, it's you who loses.
Okay, so in "the end" I lose the prize in your imagination...
Like I said, I'm NOT convinced there are any consequences for not believing what you believe.
As @Dizerner implies, if not outright states, it seems callous to some.

It's not callousness on the part of the preacher/speaker/presenter that is issue.

It's the callousness of the hearer/listener/reader that is the issue.

In the book of Hebrews we read that sin is deceitful, and that unbelief is the result of a hardened/callous heart. Hebrews 3:8, 12, 13, 15, 4:7

People who leave from following Jesus do so because of an evil heart of unbelief. Hebrews 3:12
In my case, just a mind of unbelief.
"Evil" is left for believers like yourself.
You think I will lose in the end. Morally speaking, that's an evil thought.
For my part, I just think you're wrong and deluded. I don't believe you'll "lose" in the end, you just won't get what you believe you're going to get.
I'm less evil than you.
So, as several preachers I've heard over the years have said....

Jesus is a gentleman. He knocks on the door and if you don't respond, he moves on to the next person.
And Santa is a ballerina.
While this is a good thing, there comes a point where you can exclude yourself from knowing God by disregarding his invitation. 2 Corinthians 6:1-2
I'm still waiting for the invite.
We do read that God saves to the uttermost all who come to him through Jesus Christ, who ever lives to pray for us. Hebrews 7:25

God is indeed able and ready and willing to save us, but if we continue to ignore him, he will let us go. Romans 1:18-3:31
Of course. your salvation is entirely up to you (in your imagination).
I don't belief what you believe so not only are your words unconvincing, I also am not bothered by your threats or warnings.
 
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SteveB

Well-known member
Yes.. Like gravity, like a light switch, like Santa delivering presents on Christmas Eve. All of these are overwhelmingly convincing.

That is correct, the gospel is NOT like that. The gospel is NOT like other stories that are true. It is NOT like other events for which the evidence is overwhelmingly convincing.
It's an introduction. Something akin to a handshake.
"Hi. My name is YHVH. I'd like to spend some time with you."

If you're interested, call on the name of Jesus.



Belief in the cross should be included in that characterization.
It's an historical event.


You're talking a different language, I'm a thinker, not a believer.
These are factual issues. They don't require your beliefs to be true.
Akin to the handshake.

That's right. it's just like other stories that aren't factually true.
The gospel of Jesus is factually true.
Your belief is only a necessity for you to benefit from YHVH.

Now, I'm DEFINITELY intrigued by your relationship with your imaginary Jesus.
Further evidence that you are living in an imaginary world... your mind.


It's a third person relationship with yourself. Psychologically, I find it fascinating.

That's just Jesus talking.
And besides, he was taking to a community of followers in western Turkey.
What you're doing is like going to a auto repair shop and applying what the mechanic tells the customer ahead of you to your own situation.
What gives you reason to think that words spoken to a group of people in western Turkey applies to you?

Like I said, I'm intrigued.
Come and see for yourself.


Right. But YOU'RE convinced and that's fascinating.
I took him up on his invitation.
He's done the convincing.

Okay, so in "the end" I lose the prize in your imagination...
Not in my mind.
You're still stuck in your own imagination.
Which tells me that you're not as big a thinker as you want others to believe.

Like I said, I'm NOT convinced there are any consequences for not believing what you believe.
Like gravity, electricity in a live circuit, and other things... your being convinced isn't a requirement for consequences to be real. It's the nature of being a human being made in the image and likeness of YHVH.

In my case, just a mind of unbelief.
"Evil" is left for believers like yourself.
You think I will lose in the end. Morally speaking, that's an evil thought.
For my part, I just think you're wrong and deluded. I don't believe you'll "lose" in the end, you just won't get what you believe you're going to get.
I'm less evil than you.

And Santa is a Ballerina.

I'm still waiting for the invite.

Of course. your salvation is entirely up to you (in your imagination).
I don't belief what you believe so not only are your words unconvincing, I also am not bothered by your threats or warnings.
You'll receive exactly what you want.
He's already given the invitation.
That's the preaching of the cross of Jesus.
 

bigthinker

Well-known member
It's an introduction. Something akin to a handshake.
"Hi. My name is YHVH. I'd like to spend some time with you."

If you're interested, call on the name of Jesus.
JESUS! JESUS!
Are you there?
It's an historical event.
Okay, it's a historical event.
But not a factual historical event. there's no reason (no evidence) that a man was killed by being nailed to a cross but came back to life.
These are factual issues. They don't require your beliefs to be true.
Akin to the handshake.
Except the facts don't actually exist outside of imagination.
The gospel of Jesus is factually true.
There is no evidence supporting that claim.
Your belief is only a necessity for you to benefit from YHVH.
I benefit by thinking and not being gullible.
Further evidence that you are living in an imaginary world... your mind.
How is that evidence that I'm living in an imaginary world?. If that's true, you're imaginary also because you're part of that world.
Come and see for yourself.
JESUS! JESUS!
I took him up on his invitation.
He's done the convincing.
Again the difference between us is that you're a believer and I am not.
You believed in Jesus prior to accepting his invitation.
I do not.
Not in my mind.
Yes, in your mind.
You're still stuck in your own imagination.
Which tells me that you're not as big a thinker as you want others to believe.
Can't you do better than that? C'mon Steve, don't act as a child.
Like gravity, electricity in a live circuit, and other things... your being convinced isn't a requirement for consequences to be real.
The consequence of touching the live wire is convincing.
It's the nature of being a human being made in the image and likeness of YHVH.


You'll receive exactly what you want.
Yes, I will. But you won't. You will get exactly what I want. :‐)
He's already given the invitation.
That's the preaching of the cross of Jesus.
You're like the person yelling at the deaf person, expecting to be heard.
Like you acknowledged, I need overwhelmingly convincing evidence, which you cannot provide.
All you needed was a good feeling to confirm what you ALREADY believed.
 
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