wof and 1 Corinthians 10:13

BlessedAnomaly

Active member
If God preprogrammed man with a sin nature... as it is being promoted here... it seems that makes that view a hard determinists position.

Scripture declares that man was created good, unflawed, and with an ability to be rational and reasonable within his independent and free human nature.
Scripture says man is a worm and cannot choose to do good.

Mark 7:21-23

For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

Wait. What? These evil things are where? Within man. Probably because he is defiled from sin, right? Hmm. Nope. These things from his heart proceed out and defile the man.

And ultimately, I'm sure this can be turned on the dime of sin - we sinned therefore....

But, if we were created good, unflawed, then where did the original idea to disobey come from? If it wasn't within us, then from where did it come? Satan? Where did he get it? If it was within us, how'd it get there if we were made unflawed?

If you'd just read scripture for what it says and quit bringing presuppositions into it, you'd be able to see that God created everything. He is not the author of sin, which means that he will not make you choose it and use it. But to that end, he certainly did not create us with this unending desire to do right - or we would have. He made us TO DO the sin, SO THAT the preordained Savior could come and die on a cross and save us from sin. We already covered "SO THAT."
 

Slyzr

Active member
Scripture says man is a worm and cannot choose to do good.

Mark 7:21-23

For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

Wait. What? These evil things are where? Within man. Probably because he is defiled from sin, right? Hmm. Nope. These things from his heart proceed out and defile the man.

And ultimately, I'm sure this can be turned on the dime of sin - we sinned therefore....

But, if we were created good, unflawed, then where did the original idea to disobey come from? If it wasn't within us, then from where did it come? Satan? Where did he get it? If it was within us, how'd it get there if we were made unflawed?

If you'd just read scripture for what it says and quit bringing presuppositions into it, you'd be able to see that God created everything. He is not the author of sin, which means that he will not make you choose it and use it. But to that end, he certainly did not create us with this unending desire to do right - or we would have. He made us TO DO the sin, SO THAT the preordained Savior could come and die on a cross and save us from sin. We already covered "SO THAT."

IMO .... it is a soul issue.

IMO ..... we are not a soul we are a spirit.
 

Yodas_Prodigy

Active member
Scripture says man is a worm and cannot choose to do good.

Mark 7:21-23

For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man
Man was created good, even innocent… Once sin entered in, man could do no good on his own. Here’s what we know. God is holy and righteous. He saw that allowing sin in to creation was a good thing. Sin is obviously evil. But God allowing it in was a good thing. Yes….
 

Rockson

Active member
He made us TO DO the sin, SO THAT the preordained Savior could come and die on a cross and save us from sin. We already covered "SO THAT."
Nope sorry he DID NOT make us to do sin. He didn't make us to do something he hates. Sin really is darkness, death and destruction it really is the degeneration of life. He made you in a way that you have LIBERTY to choose but never was it in his will for MAN to sin.
 

Slyzr

Active member
Man was created good, even innocent… Once sin entered in, man could do no good on his own. Here’s what we know. God is holy and righteous. He saw that allowing sin in to creation was a good thing. Sin is obviously evil. But God allowing it in was a good thing. Yes….

Kind of .......

And Paul address such ...... God abides in unapproachable light.

Which does mean we are all dross or sin as many report.

bd
 
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Yodas_Prodigy

Active member
Edit: Which does NOT mean we are all dross or sin as many report.

Based upon your edit, I am guessing you think man apart from God can do good and righteous things...

Let's see what a few godly men say about that.

Jeremiah 17:9 “The heart is deceitful above all things, And desperately wicked; Who can know it?

Isaiah 64:6 But we are all like an unclean thing, And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags; We all fade as a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, Have taken us away.

Paul, Romans 3
9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.

10 As it is written:

“There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.”
13 “Their throat is an open [d]tomb;
With their tongues they have practiced deceit”;
“The poison of asps is under their lips”;
14 “Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways;
17 And the way of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
 

Slyzr

Active member
Based upon your edit, I am guessing you think man apart from God can do good and righteous things...

Let's see what a few godly men say about that.

Jeremiah 17:9 “The heart is deceitful above all things, And desperately wicked; Who can know it?

Isaiah 64:6 But we are all like an unclean thing, And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags; We all fade as a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, Have taken us away.

Paul, Romans 3
9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.

10 As it is written:

“There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.”
13 “Their throat is an open [d]tomb;
With their tongues they have practiced deceit”;
“The poison of asps is under their lips”;
14 “Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways;
17 And the way of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

Who is the accuser; of man never mattering?


Never mind ......

I'm tired of this game.
 
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BlessedAnomaly

Active member
Nope sorry he DID NOT make us to do sin. He didn't make us to do something he hates. Sin really is darkness, death and destruction it really is the degeneration of life. He made you in a way that you have LIBERTY to choose but never was it in his will for MAN to sin.
Go answer the questions posed here:

Then we'll have a good base upon which to build, rather than you bringing your presuppositions into it. ;)
(Bottom of my first paragraph: "How, then, did we get to be sinners? I say, by design.")
 

Bob Carabbio

Well-known member
James 1:13 tells us God won't tempt us. Yet here he is controlling the temptation. He won't allow you to be tempted more than you can handle. He controls that which causes you pain, harm, discomfort, evil thoughts, good thoughts. He controls the level of temptation upon you. And in that, gives you a way to escape this temptation that he had nothing to do with. He simply controls it.
Correction: God won't tempt us WITH SIN. However He Tempts (tests, tries) us continually. Gen 22:1,2 is an example.
 

Slyzr

Active member
Could you translate that in to the Queen's English? Thanks...

I can try ......

Satan is the accuser.

Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice in heaven saying ...

For the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Job meaning hated / accused typology; . as a parallel.
 
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