wof and Casting Lots

Tallen

Tallen

Well-known member
Acts 1:23-26 KJV — And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen, That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place. And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.
 
This has always baffled me...and yet, WoF has to say, "The lot is in the Hand of the Lord..." and move on. By all evidence, many of the decisions made by the priest using Urim and Thummim were a matter of casting lots: "If it shows urim do this, and if thummim do that." I've always wondered if that's how they heard "The voice of the Lord" some of the times it's mentioned. Urim and Thummim were kept in a pocket in the priest's ephod.

Since we never hear from Matthias again until Foxe's book of martyrs, there is not a lot to recommend the procedure.
 
Tallen said:
Acts 1:23-26 KJV — And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen, That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place. And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.
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1. Mounce's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words: The last time lots are cast in the Bible is in finding a replacement apostle for Judas; that lot chooses between Joseph called Barsabbas and Matthias, and God picks Matthias (Acts 1:26). Some argue that with the coming of the Holy Spirit in Acts 2, his guidance replaced the lot as the means of determining God's will (Lot, page 424).

2. David Peterson: It is important to observe that there are no further examples of such decision making in the NT. As those who were about to enjoy the benefits of the New Covenant, the apostles were using a practice that was sanctioned by God but belonged to the old era. It took place before Pentecost, when the Spirit was poured out in a way that signified a new kind of relationship between God and his people. From Luke's emphasis on the Spirit's role in giving wisdom, guidance, and direction, it would appear that the apostolic example on this occasion is not to be followed by Christians today (Pillar New Testament Commentary, Acts, page 128-129).
 
..."he was numbered with the eleven Apostles."

Must of been legit. BTW, Wesley practiced casting lots.
 
tbeachhead said:
This has always baffled me...and yet, WoF has to say, "The lot is in the Hand of the Lord..." and move on. By all evidence, many of the decisions made by the priest using Urim and Thummim were a matter of casting lots: "If it shows urim do this, and if thummim do that." I've always wondered if that's how they heard "The voice of the Lord" some of the times it's mentioned. Urim and Thummim were kept in a pocket in the priest's ephod.

Since we never hear from Matthias again until Foxe's book of martyrs, there is not a lot to recommend the procedure.
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Interesting. And one thing about church history I'd like to know is what exactly happened to all the Apostles. I know places say this on went here and did this and this one went here....but it's a pretty sketchy knowledge we have about them all. We read about Peter and Paul, and even Paul wasn't one of the twelve....we read about Barnabaus, or Silas, or Mark but what about all the 12 Apostles....what did they actually do which was significant in the growth of the church. And interesting that Mark and Luke weren't even Apostles and yet they wrote gospels? Why not the 12? What were they doing? Always wondered about this.
 
Rockson said:
Interesting. And one thing about church history I'd like to know is what exactly happened to all the Apostles. I know places say this on went here and did this and this one went here....but it's a pretty sketchy knowledge we have about them all. We read about Peter and Paul, and even Paul wasn't one of the twelve....we read about Barnabas, or Silas, or Mark but what about all the 12 Apostles....what did they actually do which was significant in the growth of the church. And interesting that Mark and Luke weren't even Apostles and yet they wrote gospels? Why not the 12? What were they doing? Always wondered about this.
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Foxe's Book of Martyrs is a great summary of the centuries of persecution following the book of Acts. Foxe collected what the Early Church Fathers wrote. Make sure you get the unexpurgated version. Critics in the twentieth century cut out John's testimony, where he was boiled in oil, and unscathed, sent to Patmos. That's a great read.
 
Fred said:
https://forums.carm.org/threads/nobody-truly-believes-that-the-bible-means-exactly-what-it-says.2345/page-32#post-583602
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Merely mentioning the office is not necessarily inclusive of all. You really don't have a safe claim here, exegetically.

When the persecution increased in virulence, believers were dispersed and moved out of Jerusalem. Some went to Samaria. Some to Antioch, and actually founded a church there that included Greeks...before ever Peter met with Cornelius. Foxe's traces the peregrinations of several if not all the apostles. Evidence is strong that Thomas evangelized India, and the disciples of others brought the gospel all the way east, planting the church in the orient long before the great missionaries of the nineteenth century arrived.

You'll have a hard time convincing anyone that Matthias was personally involved in the verses you address.
 
tbeachhead said:
You'll have a hard time convincing anyone that Matthias was personally involved in the verses you address.
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The eleven plus Peter = 12
Acts 2:14
But Peter, taking his stand with the eleven, raised his voice and declared to them: “Men of Judea and all you who live in Jerusalem, let this be known to you and give heed to my words.
The eleven plus Peter = 12

To which Matthias was addressed by the Jews after Peter's proclamation of the gospel.
Acts 2:37
Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brethren, what shall we do?”



You should also be aware that later when it reads "the twelve" Matthias is included.
Acts 6:2
So the twelve summoned the congregation of the disciples and said, “It is not desirable for us to neglect the word of God in order to serve tables.
 
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