wof and James 2:20

Tallen

Well-known member
“But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?” (James 2:20, KJV)
 
“But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?” (James 2:20, KJV)
What does James mean by works?

The Works that came from faith from Acts 2 on were miraculous works. The works of Mark 16 were miraculous works.

Do you mean James is talking about being the faithful one who washes the toilets after every Sunday?
 
What does James mean by works?

The Works that came from faith from Acts 2 on were miraculous works. The works of Mark 16 were miraculous works.

Do you mean James is talking about being the faithful one who washes the toilets after every Sunday?
tbeachhead (funny name), Mutt and Jeff tend to ignore you. What did you do to anger these gods?
 
“But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?” (James 2:20, KJV)
True statement. And your agenda is???

Dead faith = No FAITH at all.

Paranthetic: There's a "Fellowship of Christian Assemblies" denomination (used to be the Italian branch of the Assemblies of God). And over the door to their sanctuary when you go out is the slogan: "If there is no element of RISK in your Christian exploits, there is no need for FAITH"
 
tbeachhead (funny name), Mutt and Jeff tend to ignore you. What did you do to anger these gods?
Wow, you're perceptive. I still enjoy responding here from time to time We've had excellent debates over the decades.

On the name: When I came off the mission field in 1987 to teach (build tents) in NH in a local state school, I started a youth group called "the beachhead," because there was not much going for Christian outreach among the teens in the area. We established a beachhead. The internet appeared, and I joined AOL dialup. I needed a nickname so I chose "beachhead" but AOL already had a beachhead, so I added the T for "the"...the beachhead. When I became pastor fifteen years later, the triumvirate (your Mutt and Jeff plus another good friend) started calling me "hireling", because as a WoF apologist, I had accepted to pastor a Conservative Baptist Church (CB of A). I worried for my friends, so for the time I was pastor, I became "tbeachhireling" to protect them. I'm not well liked on this particular board, because I am a WoF apologist, and I don't defend the outrageous proponents that have become the (often well-deserved) targets of the most staunch conservatives. I defend the principles of WoF doctrine, not the jets, Rolexes and Gucci suits.

As a WoF apologists, I've discovered one of the most stringent, unalterable principles amongst the critics that I've ever seen..."Thou shalt not ever even pretend to agree with a proponent of WoF, however reasonable the argument." Hence...they ignore me now, because they have no argument against what I say. It's the best I can do on this board.
 
When I became pastor fifteen years later, the triumvirate (your Mutt and Jeff plus another good friend) started calling me "hireling",
This is an out right lie, and the reason I quite responding to a liar. I never called you a hireling, although you have insisted on this for years despite being told otherwise. I don't recall YP ever calling you an hireling, either. Note, who is calling others names without provocation. I don't ignore you because you offer reasonable arguments, I ignore you because of your insistent dishonesty and deceitful memories..., which I have pointed out to you for years.
 
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This is an out right lie, and the reason I quite responding to a liar. I never called you a hireling, although youhave insisted on this for years despite being told otherwise.
Ted, It's not an outright lie...You objected to me calling you a "triumvirate", and I was called a hireling by the group. You all shared the "joke," and I got worried for you. That's sincere. It is not good to go after leaders without warrant, and y'all did. I do not recall you rebuking them, standing with me or showing the least amount of understanding, and frankly, I was surprised by the vehemence and venom with which all y'alls posts were laced. There have been two maybe three threads where we've addressed each other in a civil tone because I complimented you in your insights on baptizing children...and recognized reason. That has NEVER ONCE been reciprocal. Your problem. It's never been mine. I came to respond to false claims made against the doctrines of WoF, and to differentiate between the often merited ad Homs and the basic theological and orthodox principles WoF represents.

To protest innocence at this point is silly...and wasted. If you do not recall for how long it carried on, ask Trav. Ask Joe...I pastored for three years, and went back to the beachhead immediately after I resigned.


I don't recall YP ever calling you a hireling, either. Note, who is calling others names without provocation. I don't ignore you because you offer reasonable arguments, I ignore you because of your insistent dishonesty and deceitful memories.
I think it was Trav who coined it, and it went on long enough to be concerning. I shared my pastors retirement and my call here among peers who proved to be anything but peers, not just with me...but with anyone who understood and defended WoF principles.

The vehemence of your response here proves again that you still have the pepper that makes the soup unpalatable. This is why everyone else left, Ted. We got tired of being called liars.
 
Wow, you're perceptive. I still enjoy responding here from time to time We've had excellent debates over the decades.

On the name: When I came off the mission field in 1987 to teach (build tents) in NH in a local state school, I started a youth group called "the beachhead," because there was not much going for Christian outreach among the teens in the area. We established a beachhead. The internet appeared, and I joined AOL dialup. I needed a nickname so I chose "beachhead" but AOL already had a beachhead, so I added the T for "the"...the beachhead. When I became pastor fifteen years later, the triumvirate (your Mutt and Jeff plus another good friend) started calling me "hireling", because as a WoF apologist, I had accepted to pastor a Conservative Baptist Church (CB of A). I worried for my friends, so for the time I was pastor, I became "tbeachhireling" to protect them. I'm not well liked on this particular board, because I am a WoF apologist, and I don't defend the outrageous proponents that have become the (often well-deserved) targets of the most staunch conservatives. I defend the principles of WoF doctrine, not the jets, Rolexes and Gucci suits.

As a WoF apologists, I've discovered one of the most stringent, unalterable principles amongst the critics that I've ever seen..."Thou shalt not ever even pretend to agree with a proponent of WoF, however reasonable the argument." Hence...they ignore me now, because they have no argument against what I say. It's the best I can do on this board.
Interesting. That's awesome.

You aren't well liked here? I haven't dug too far, but on the surface it seems like the Mutt and Jeff show. No one else around for that. And I don't suppose they like anyone who puts up any disagreement with their stuff. And judging by how Tallen responded to you in here, he likely has anger issues in rl. Mutt and Jeff, self appointed king and jester from what I've seen so far. I've seen this on other social sites. You be you. Your posts seem even handed and well tempered. God bless you.
 
Interesting. That's awesome.

You aren't well liked here? I haven't dug too far, but on the surface it seems like the Mutt and Jeff show.
I want to say something in all sincerity...If you read "Tallen's" very strong post to me, he objected to my rendition of the history of this forum. Most of us have been jabbing each other for thirty years. The first ten years were intense with some of the very best debates I've ever participated in with members and friends long gone. Tallen, Yoda's and Blessed are practically all that are left. And they each have proven themselves as adequate in scholarship as any with whom you'd like to bounce off ideas.

If it were not for Tallen, this board would be as dead as the Charismatic board, which is gone for the dead weight that the Charismatic Revival left behind. Few did the theology justice, and no one is left to be interested. With the exception of Bob Carabbio a real friend and Pentecostal musician from Texas, I'd say that there are no more Charismatic churches left, only Baptist churches bearing pentecostal labels that require you to ask your pastor's permission before you speak in tongues, unless you keep it under your breath so that no one hears and no one interprets.

And I'm not well like on this board becomes a badge of honor and a challenge.

No one else around for that. And I don't suppose they like anyone who puts up any disagreement with their stuff. And judging by how Tallen responded to you in here, he likely has anger issues in rl.
He has triggers. And he can't be bothered with responding to me unless a trigger gets pulled.

Mutt and Jeff, self-appointed king and jester from what I've seen so far. I've seen this on other social sites. You be you. Your posts seem even handed and well tempered. God bless you.
I like calling them by their names. I used to call them "the Orthodox" because Matt Slick had relegated WoF to "The Heterodox" and they agreed with him. The threads on defining "Orthodoxy" and the history of the self-proclaimed orthodoxy throughout the last two thousand years would be another trigger that I don't feel like pulling. Memories here are long and many are not cherished. But that's why, when you begin to understand the depth that these friends offer, it's worth hanging and getting to know them. We've been at this approaching thirty years now.
 
I want to say something in all sincerity...If you read "Tallen's" very strong post to me, he objected to my rendition of the history of this forum. Most of us have been jabbing each other for thirty years. The first ten years were intense with some of the very best debates I've ever participated in with members and friends long gone. Tallen, Yoda's and Blessed are practically all that are left. And they each have proven themselves as adequate in scholarship as any with whom you'd like to bounce off ideas.
I like this about you. He comes roaring like an uncircumcised Philistine screaming "Liar! Liar!" and you turn the cheek and say "Forgive them, for they sin." You're a better man than me.

If it were not for Tallen, this board would be as dead as the Charismatic board, which is gone for the dead weight that the Charismatic Revival left behind. Few did the theology justice, and no one is left to be interested. With the exception of Bob Carabbio a real friend and Pentecostal musician from Texas, I'd say that there are no more Charismatic churches left, only Baptist churches bearing pentecostal labels that require you to ask your pastor's permission before you speak in tongues, unless you keep it under your breath so that no one hears and no one interprets.
And you call this alive? This board is dead. When I came I looked for the Charismatic section, and yes found that to be dead. A lot of secularistic people are here talking about astronomy and world issues, but I find very little in the way of Christians talking about biblical issues. I've seen Tallen, Yodas_Prodigy and Bob Carabbio. The others not yet. If you had to place them on the "friendly" or "opposition" side as for beliefs, who would line up with you mostly?

As for Charismatic, that is a label that fits many denominations. Pentecostal falls under charismatic, some Baptists, non-denoms, even some Catholics are charismatic.

And I'm not well like on this board becomes a badge of honor and a challenge.
There's hardly one here it seems except spitters of poisonous words. A few maybe. Probably not your doing to not be well liked.

He has triggers. And he can't be bothered with responding to me unless a trigger gets pulled.
Old and tired? Probably angry with a short temper. Honestly I can't really make judgement on him yet, but he has not given me one positive to peg into his board.

I like calling them by their names. I used to call them "the Orthodox" because Matt Slick had relegated WoF to "The Heterodox" and they agreed with him. The threads on defining "Orthodoxy" and the history of the self-proclaimed orthodoxy throughout the last two thousand years would be another trigger that I don't feel like pulling. Memories here are long and many are not cherished. But that's why, when you begin to understand the depth that these friends offer, it's worth hanging and getting to know them. We've been at this approaching thirty years now.
Again, you're a better man than me. But Jesus said that you need to wipe the dust if they won't receive. Your attitude is Christ-like.
 
Ted, It's not an outright lie...You objected to me calling you a "triumvirate", and I was called a hireling by the group. You all shared the "joke," and I got worried for you. That's sincere. It is not good to go after leaders without warrant, and y'all did. I do not recall you rebuking them, standing with me or showing the least amount of understanding, and frankly, I was surprised by the vehemence and venom with which all y'alls posts were laced. There have been two maybe three threads where we've addressed each other in a civil tone because I complimented you in your insights on baptizing children...and recognized reason. That has NEVER ONCE been reciprocal. Your problem. It's never been mine. I came to respond to false claims made against the doctrines of WoF, and to differentiate between the often merited ad Homs and the basic theological and orthodox principles WoF represents.

To protest innocence at this point is silly...and wasted. If you do not recall for how long it carried on, ask Trav. Ask Joe...I pastored for three years, and went back to the beachhead immediately after I resigned.


I think it was Trav who coined it, and it went on long enough to be concerning. I shared my pastors retirement and my call here among peers who proved to be anything but peers, not just with me...but with anyone who understood and defended WoF principles.

The vehemence of your response here proves again that you still have the pepper that makes the soup unpalatable. This is why everyone else left, Ted. We got tired of being called liars.

For the record, I have never called you a hireling.
 
As for Charismatic, that is a label that fits many denominations. Pentecostal falls under charismatic,
Actually the Pentecostals, for the most part were dead-set AGAINST the Charismatics (which was a genuine, and world wide Holy Spirit driven revival from 1966 through 1979, or so). Pentecostals came out of the Wesleyan HOLINESS denominations back in the 19th century, and the actual Pentecostal Holy Spirit driven revival was 1900 - 1916 or so. Quite a few denominations were formed out of that revival, the Assemblies of God being the largest one reaching about 80,000,000 world wide at present. When the "Charismatic outpouring" ended, MANY CHarismatics flowed into the Assemblies of God, and changed it significantly away for the Legalistic, "One strike and you're OUT" denomination into a gentler bunch that exists today. "Charismatics" never denationalized the way Pentecostals did, and tended to re-integrate with the groups they came out of when the "Outpouring" ended in the late '70s.
some Baptists, non-denoms, even some Catholics are charismatic.
True - in Central Ohio in the '70s any FGBMFI Charismatic gathering was likely to be about 1/2 Roman Catholic, and many Priests, and Nuns would minister there.
 
Actually the Pentecostals, for the most part were dead-set AGAINST the Charismatics (which was a genuine, and world wide Holy Spirit driven revival from 1966 through 1979, or so). Pentecostals came out of the Wesleyan HOLINESS denominations back in the 19th century, and the actual Pentecostal Holy Spirit driven revival was 1900 - 1916 or so. Quite a few denominations were formed out of that revival, the Assemblies of God being the largest one reaching about 80,000,000 world wide at present. When the "Charismatic outpouring" ended, MANY CHarismatics flowed into the Assemblies of God, and changed it significantly away for the Legalistic, "One strike and you're OUT" denomination into a gentler bunch that exists today. "Charismatics" never denationalized the way Pentecostals did, and tended to re-integrate with the groups they came out of when the "Outpouring" ended in the late '70s.
Sure. All denoms have a history. The deal is that NOW charismatic means something more general than what happened in the 70s

You don't deny that NOW Assemblies are charismatic in general flavor, no? True the Assemblies are older with more history, and had more rigidity.

True - in Central Ohio in the '70s any FGBMFI Charismatic gathering was likely to be about 1/2 Roman Catholic, and many Priests, and Nuns would minister there.
Charismatic Catholics are an odd mixture to me.

Nice to meet you Bob. I've heard nothing but good about you and your banjo.
 
Sure. All denoms have a history. The deal is that NOW charismatic means something more general than what happened in the 70s

You don't deny that NOW Assemblies are charismatic in general flavor, no?
Yup, the Assemblies of God in 2023 is MUCH LESS legalistic, and more like the Charismatics of the '70s. No question about that.
True the Assemblies are older with more history, and had more rigidity.
The AG in the '50s and '60s was VERY rigid in what they did and didn't allow!!!! Forget Dancing, Movies, Stage shows, ANY sort of alcohol, Smoking, Makeup on women, Men with LONG hair, or Women that got their hair cut at all PANTS on women, and Not being in church when the doors were open.

I remember going to dinner with a Charismatic Methodist pastor and his wife back in the '70s, and he ordered a screwdriver, and she had a glass of wine. and I realized I wasn't in Kansas any more -

In Ohio the Charismatic outpouring hit the Roman Catholics HARD - to the point that the parish Priests didn't know WHAT to do with their parishioners who were suddenly speaking in tongues, Getting Born Again, and moving in the Holy Spirit. They were actually asking Pentecostals to come in and teach their people what it was all about. I used to teach in Catholic Bible studies, and got called into the Catholic church in Minster, OH to meet with the local priesthood, so they could learn who was messing with their people - to see if I was "Fish or Fowl". I think I passed -
Nice to meet you Bob. I've heard nothing but good about you and your banjo.
Same here - pleased to make your acquaintance. I've been on this particular forum (through a few iterations) for about 30 years.

Bluegrass music is my primary hobby, and very popular here in Dallas. But I'm sort of the "downhill side" as my hands get less flexible (80 doesn't feel much like 55). There's some of my stuff over the last 25 years or so at "bcarabbio" on youtube. The Highlanders Band was the one God told me to start back in '99 and we played nursing homes mostly until '05.
Cedar junction was the latest band commitment -
 
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Yup, the Assemblies of God in 2023 is MUCH LESS legalistic, and more like the Charismatics of the '70s. No question about that.

The AG in the '50s and '60s was VERY rigid in what they did and didn't allow!!!! Forget Dancing, Movies, Stage shows, ANY sort of alcohol, Smoking, Makeup on women, Men with LONG hair, or Women that got their hair cut at all PANTS on women, and Not being in church when the doors were open.

I remember going to dinner with a Charismatic Methodist pastor and his wife back in the '70s, and he ordered a screwdriver, and she had a glass of wine. and I realized I wasn't in Kansas any more -

In Ohio the Charismatic outpouring hit the Roman Catholics HARD - to the point that the parish Priests didn't know WHAT to do with their parishioners who were suddenly speaking in tongues, Getting Born Again, and moving in the Holy Spirit. They were actually asking Pentecostals to come in and teach their people what it was all about. I used to teach in Catholic Bible studies, and got called into the Catholic church in Minster, OH to meet with the local priesthood, so they could learn who was messing with their people - to see if I was "Fish or Fowl". I think I passed -

Same here - pleased to make your acquaintance. I've been on this particular forum (through a few iterations) for about 30 years.

Bluegrass music is my primary hobby, and very popular here in Dallas. But I'm sort of the "downhill side" as my hands get less flexible (80 doesn't feel much like 55). There's some of my stuff over the last 25 years or so at "bcarabbio" on youtube. The Highlanders Band was the one God told me to start back in '99 and we played nursing homes mostly until '05.
Cedar junction was the latest band commitment -
Oh wow!! That's some fine pickin' (as if if really know, but I know I like that). That's awesome.
 
Turns out...nobody did. I imagined it!

So many years ago, Joe, it's just a shadow for the comedy it used to be. Tbeachhirling has long been buried in renewed iterations of CARM.
No, James called you a Hireling… But you do imagine a lot. Like when you accused us who oppose WOF of wanting to kill you. Or, how about the hundreds of times you tried linking us to Rome, until Copeland had his very public meeting with the Pope. Yes, you do make things up as you go. Either you have mental limitations, intentionally misrepresent, or are demonized… Whatever way, you make a lot of stuff up…
 
No, James called you a Hireling… But you do imagine a lot. Like when you accused us who oppose WOF of wanting to kill you.
Joe, stop. First of all, James wasn't alone...but he probably coined the term. I always liked James. And, you never understood the allusion to history. You either did or didn't use the term "heretic" to describe us (I won't accuse), did or didn't call us "heretics" and that brought on an inconvenient study of the "orthodoxy's" historic use of the term.

I didn't project history on to you, I asked how much you bought into the "orthodoxy's" historic response to "heresy." The charge and the death penalty went hand in hand, even for Jean Calvin the Reform Superhero. I was studying "The Jesus Wars" at the time. Interesting history. You don't scare me, Joe. Never have. If y'all didn't intrigue me I'd never have stayed. And if we didn't speak much the same language, and have much the same concerns.
Or, how about the hundreds of times you tried linking us to Rome, until Copeland had his very public meeting with the Pope. Yes, you do make things up as you go.
Again...you misunderstood. Rome was not the sole persecutor. Ask the anabaptists. They died in Reform strongholds.
Either you have mental limitations, intentionally misrepresent, or are demonized… Whatever way, you make a lot of stuff up…
This is sick.

You should be ashamed. I hope you are. You either did or did not just accuse me of...being demonized, etc. I've never done nor ever would do this to you, nor even ever pretended to question your mental state. Jesus is pretty clear on this score...

...but then...taking Jesus at His Word is always a challenge, isn't it?
 
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