wof and living 120 years

[BlessedAnomaly]

A prophet has a single goal: To edify, exhort and comfort. Do you see that "persuade" is not top on the list?

I'm not a prophet. I'm more a teacher. So "persuade" is on the top of my list.

This is a different principle: If Jesus is teaching us that WE CAN, independent of Him, that our faith, fully developed, is capable of changing topography, then "Have faith IN God" is entirely non sequitur to the point of distracting. He has equipped us to act in His Name independently.

Or perhaps he was telling us that IF we had faith the size of a mustard seed, we can. BUT, he is implying, you DON'T have such faith -- nice try, he tells us. You have never turned water into wine. Nor if you got lucky and saw a "miracle" could you produce a second one on cue. Likely what you saw that was a "miracle" was simply getting lucky.

I've told of a man I knew 3 years at my first church who was in a wheelchair. We had a prayer service and he was prayed for. He got out of that wheelchair and he walked along the altar. The next 3 years I never saw him out of that wheelchair. That was no miracle.

You tell of your own experience of a wedding -- yours or someone else's -- (which I'll likely get details wrong) where a storm was approaching. You commanded the storm to dry up / go away. The storm split in two, divided its way around the wedding and came back together on the other side and continued to storm going away. That is not a miracle. That is lucky. That was coincidence. Faith does not get lucky and happen once or twice. We have monsoons here in AZ, come and split a storm for me. (That's snarkiness; I'm not being mean.)

You see IF we had the faith of a mustard seed, then we would HAVE the faith of a mustard seed. Unless you can show me a verse that says that God takes away our faith that has been measured to us, or a verse that says that we use it up if we ... use it up.

If I've been translating badly for decades,

I'll just leave this here. 😏

It's like I said, we are all wrong. We just have times when we think we are right and we fight about it and rend each other like pit bulls. Then years later we discover something that changes things in how we understand what we fought for, long after we forgot that we ever fought over it.

Unless my observation is correct and it strips the church of expectation, making us impotent. That passage is faith defining, and this discussion is one of the most weighty.

If "in/of" was the only thing we had wrong, then impotent wouldn't be a worry, except for this. But the church is divisive, and thus it must be wrong. Somewhere. Everyone. So we are not simply an "in/of" away from any greater understanding.

The good thing (maybe): God's got this thing. He's going to make sure that we get to the final chapter the way that he wants us to. And when we have opportunity in eternity to sit and ask about "in/of" we can hear Jesus say, "That's not important. Here, have some bread. Drink some wine. Let me tell you a story about when Gabriel...." And we all laugh.

 

[Tallen]

If "in/of" was the only thing we had wrong, then impotent wouldn't be a worry, except for this. But the church is divisive, and thus it must be wrong. Somewhere. Everyone. So we are not simply an "in/of" away from any greater understanding.

BTW BA, if you read Tb's post to me you will see His equivocation on this.

Hagin's point, which has always been the point of the whole argument, after all it is about wof, is focused on Hagin's claim that believers can have "the faith of God", something he called "devine faith". And he based that whole premise on something he found that someone had once said. We now have a different claim, an equivocation, one of several.

I once referrenced 50 Greek scholars and translators, with pedigrees and peer approval, in a post that refuted Hagin's claim, to which TB accused them of having a common agenda against the claim, even though they live through various centuries before and after Hagin's claim. Unapproved translators and scholars all are in a conspiracy about this, Tb's claim. Tb's scholars were himself, a high school French teacher who claims he is good at languages, and Marios..., some neophyte that lives in Greece that is married to a teacher in a Greek public school.

We do not appropriate devine faith, nor does God give us His faith. The point we realize from the Apostle Mark's words, are we should have our faith focus upon and in YHWH.

Nuff said.

 

[BlessedAnomaly]

Part II

Just like The Godfather. Opening scene was a shooting, if I recall.

My only conclusion is the end of Hebrews 11...36Still others endured mocking and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment.
37They were stoned, they were sawed in two,f they were put to death by the sword. They went around in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, oppressed, and mistreated. 38The world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, and hid in caves and holes in the ground. 39These were all commended for their faith, yet they did not receive what was promised. 40God had planned something better for us, so that together with us they would be made perfect.

Ah yes, the end of Hebrews 11. The catch bucket for when God lies.

"Here, have the faith of a mustard seed."
"Yes, I will !!"
"Oh, not you. You did great but miracles aren't on the menu for today. Try again next time."

I commend her for her faith...

Awesome. And she's still dead, I'm alone, and my faith is in that bucket I mentioned.

and I still like God's plan because it has something better for you.

Oh yeah!! Like a stroke that leaves me thinking clearly, but with no ability to speak or move about like a well person. Trapped in a demented storage room of pain. Or am I not supposed to claim that I'm blown away by it all for fear of a tornado ripping off the door.

God has a time...night...where "no man can work."

God has a joke: it's called mankind. If he's omnipotent, why can't he write a book that everyone can understand in the same manner? No, he created us to be stupid and sow confusion and cause division. See? He made me!!

The night passes, and the day dawns and the church at last arises. The days of which the author of Hebrews spoke are at hand, or they're now one day closer to being at hand. That's called hope, of which faith is the substance.

So to be clear, I don't doubt a word of this. But what we think is good is not good as a human would describe. God has different meanings. What we think of as love is not love as a human would want. God has a different meaning. And he didn't clearly tell us. But he has shown some of us, and now I understand some of this -- and it makes the end of Hebrews 11 clear. That is not some "oh by the way, sometimes it isn't exactly how you want it" kind of thing, but rather should be read as "God had this pain and suffering in mind from the start just to be sadistic." I mean, after all, he has something to teach the ones that surround the innocent people who got screwed. I think he calls that being Godly.

We disagree...God-like faith makes me as confident in my words as Jesus was in His. And as careful. Faith in God means I cannot make a difference.

And your confidence doesn't lead to anything other than your self confidence. And when that confidence doesn't play out, we run to the end of Hebrews 11 because God said that sometimes it won't work.....but you're doing fine.

Only when it's friendly. Cantankerous, rancorous debate is damaging.

Oh no. Godly handling of us is quite worse than this, and that is supposed to be good for us. We learn a lot from the pain.

We're right when we do what's right. Not when we say what's right...because there's a time to just not say, where saying what's right is out of season.
He wants you to love your neighbor.

I did mention an acquaintance who is in LaVeyan Satanism. He loves his neighbor. He'd outshine the best Christian I know in service of others.

I do not want to get any point across with a bludgeon. And I want to go with you to where there are "French dialects". Anywhere French is taught, there is no "dialect" taught. Only French.

Dialects aren't taught, Peter. Dialects simply are -- maybe because the speaker hasn't been properly taught. I gave you a link. There are many dialects throughout France.

 

[Tallen]

Like a stroke that leaves me thinking clearly, but with no ability to speak or move about like a well person.

I had a friend who was a voracious reader. Read a book every day or two. Lived to read. His goal was to retire and spend his time reading everything he could get his hands on.

He retired.

He had a stroke...

This left him with the ability to read, even out loud, but not understanding or even remember what he read. His reading was a worthless effort for him.

Living in a corrupt world. 😐

 

[BlessedAnomaly]

BTW BA, if you read Tb's post to me you will see His equivocation on this.

Hagin's point, which has always been the point of the whole argument, after all it is about wof, is focused on Hagin's claim that believers can have "the faith of God", something he called "devine faith". And he based that whole premise on something he found that someone had once said. We now have a different claim, an equivocation, one of several.

Haven't you heard? Word of Faith doesn't descend from Hagin any longer. We're way past that now.

But, myself, I think the verse says "a God kind of faith." "In" is not correct, just accepted.

I once referrenced 50 Greek scholars and translators, with pedigrees and peer approval, in a post that refuted Hagin's claim, to which TB accused them of having a common agenda against the claim, even though they live through various centuries before and after Hagin's claim. Unapproved translators and scholars all are in a conspiracy about this, Tb's claim. Tb's scholars were himself, a high school French teacher who claims he is good at languages, and Marios..., some neophyte that lives in Greece that is married to a teacher in a Greek public school.

Hey, Marios was almost a god. He had faith of God. You dismissed Marios too quickly.

BTW, unless you are dismissing A.T Robertson (and thus Dr. Wallace, since he basically agreed but accepted the accepted), then it's still in the bin of disagreement. Greek is clear. This verse is clear. What meaning we take from it, as with other verses, is up to human liking and error.

We do not appropriate devine faith, nor does God give us His faith. The point we realize from the Apostle Mark's words, are we should have our faith focus upon and in YHWH.

Nuff said.

And I think Hagin backed away from such concepts when he backed off the "satan's nature" comments.

Added: but Copeland didn't and still thinks he's a god as good as God.

 

[tbeachhead]

BTW BA, if you read Tb's post to me you will see His equivocation on this.

I do not think this word means what you think it means. I have never equivocated.

Hagin's point, which has always been the point of the whole argument, after all it is about wof, is focused on Hagin's claim that believers can have "the faith of God", something he called "divine faith". And he based that whole premise on something he found that someone had once said. We now have a different claim, an equivocation, one of several.

It's not a "different claim."It's clarification. The genitive, as I've said since the first post countering the attack on Hagin's claim decades ago, is of quality. Not of ownership. The "ubiquitous interpretation" claim is specious, and a poor excuse not to look at what Jesus is saying. If Hagin used the term "divine faith," he actually hit on what I'm saying, and what this grammatical construct demands. Jesus is saying, "You too, if you have like faith, will produce like results." Peter said the "great and precious promises of God" make us partakers of "the divine nature." Try to wriggle out of this as you must, the Word of the Lord still stands clear. Jesus told his disciples that they could "speak, believing and not doubting" and produce whatsoever they said. There's no equivocation there.

I once referenced 50 Greek scholars and translators, with pedigrees and peer approval, in a post that refuted Hagin's claim, to which TB accused them of having a common agenda against the claim, even though they live through various centuries before and after Hagin's claim.

If I said agenda, in light of the 21st century, I'd withdraw the claim. I don't suggest any nefarious scheme to undermine the Word. I recognize what Bob has pointed out here that there is a "ubiquitous claim" that discourages individual insight, and inquisitive examination. In this case, the tradition nullifies Jesus' own point here. "Faith 'in' God" does not promote the divine quality of faith, that independently speaks and changes the topography. The mountain moves at the behest of the speaking believer.

Unapproved translators and scholars all are in a conspiracy about this, Tb's claim. Tb's scholars were himself, a high school French teacher who claims he is good at languages, and Marios..., some neophyte that lives in Greece that is married to a teacher in a Greek public school.

Some "neophyte" who has only spoken Greek his whole life, and understands the grammar. You, Ted, deny the accessibility of grammar, and consign all knowledge to a group of consenting adults who have come to Greek armed with commentaries on Greek, and who eschew the obvious meaning for the "ubiquitous" meaning that others have accepted. The argument is specious. I'm not making anything up. I'm using the first principle of translation: Go with the simplest meaning first. In terms of exegesis, this is always advisable, especially when it is backed up thoroughly in others' writings, as Peter and Paul both back up this principle.

We do not appropriate divine faith, nor does God give us His faith.

You actually have no scripture to support this claim. Faith comes by hearing [the Word], and it falls on a footpath, on rocks, among weeds or in good soil. We become the husbandman to that word we heard, and responsible entirely for the fruit it bears.

The point we realize from the Apostle Mark's words, are we should have our faith focus upon and in YHWH.

Nuff said.

This is false...the point in Mark is that we can moves trees and mountains, if believe the promises like this one and do not doubt. This is a promise. "Have faith like you've seen here. Like I have." Prove me wrong.

You cannot, btw...although you are free to be wrong.

What's really funny to me, and a reason this forum is so powerful, is that, as Rachel points out, in Luke, the disciples asked Jesus to increase their faith because they saw HIS faith in operation, and His response was the same promise. If you want to see an exercise in frustration, look it up in BibleHub. Notice on the left the number of times ''os" is translated "as small as". Even the Berean makes this mistake, and corrects it in their "literal" version. We've all been sucked into thinking faith can be quantified, because of what IS ubiquitous error. The Greek word 'os is as...or like. Qualitative. Our faith in the Word, well planted and tended, will grow to move mountains.

 

[Mik]

You guys are still reading these posts as you read the scriptures. The fact remains, neither will always say what you want them to say.

Do you infallibly interpret Scripture?

 

[tbeachhead]

I'm not a prophet. I'm more a teacher. So "persuade" is on the top of my list.

I am a teacher. Teach is on the top of my list. Persuade is on the bottom. If I believe truth, and teach you to observe, to think and discern...you, too, will believe, because Truth is persuasive of itself, and without help.

If I feel I have to "persuade" you that something is true, it probably isn't. I leave my deposit to be examined and evaluated.

Or perhaps he was telling us that IF we had faith the size of a mustard seed, we can. BUT, he is implying, you DON'T have such faith -- nice try, he tells us. You have never turned water into wine. Nor if you got lucky and saw a "miracle" could you produce a second one on cue. Likely what you saw that was a "miracle" was simply getting lucky.

Naah...Jesus didn't spew nonsense to produce overwhelming impotence. That's what folks who go with "ubiquitous interpretations" do. The student will wind up exactly as impotent as the teacher, and you have ubiquitous impotence as a fruit.

I've told of a man I knew 3 years at my first church who was in a wheelchair. We had a prayer service and he was prayed for. He got out of that wheelchair and he walked along the altar. The next 3 years I never saw him out of that wheelchair. That was no miracle.

Agreed. I fell off a roof, shattered my ankle (pilon fracture). I was to be on crutches for months. He pronounced my healing. I was on my crutches for months. He wasn't Jesus, and I didn't have that kind of faith. I would fault him for not saying...and I'll always fault me for not having enough "tree"...but not for lack of growth. I'm older now, and still believing for the fulfillment...as every one of those in Hebrews 12 died believing. I understand that "The night came...No man can work." And I know that night is far spent. The church will arise and surpass that of Acts 2 in manifestation. Jesus said we'd do his works, and left the limitations to that promise up to us to artificially enforce. I do not enforce limitations, but they are ubiquitously enforced and have been for centuries. MacArthur suggests that enforcement of these limitations is "good exegesis."

You tell of your own experience of a wedding -- yours or someone else's -- (which I'll likely get details wrong) where a storm was approaching. You commanded the storm to dry up / go away. The storm split in two, divided its way around the wedding and came back together on the other side and continued to storm going away. That is not a miracle. That is lucky. That was coincidence. Faith does not get lucky and happen once or twice. We have monsoons here in AZ, come and split a storm for me. (That's snarkiness; I'm not being mean.)

My wedding...Not "dry up and go away." I usually only pray for "a dome of high pressure over us." The rain struck all around us, the newspapers published maps of the lightning strikes, we had our garden reception, and then the rain commenced when we went in to the formal dining room to continue. I really do not care what you call it...we called it "time for thanksgiving." My atheist brother/best man, stationed in Germany and the only member of my family who could come to Sweden to the wedding, watched the clouds part, go around the churchyard, and join themselves together on the other side of the church, and said, "If you ever wanted a sign..." That was a miracle whatever you want to call the phenomenal weather. (And who cares what anyone calls it. It's ridiculous not to be grateful for the unforgettable event that we still discuss from time to time on CARM!)

You see IF we had the faith of a mustard seed, then we would HAVE the faith of a mustard seed. Unless you can show me a verse that says that God takes away our faith that has been measured to us, or a verse that says that we use it up if we ... use it up.

It's never "of a", but always "as a"...it must grow or it isn't, and so I can show you in the parable of the four fields where it gets "used up" from too much sunlight...and persecution and events of this world. Seeds that are not well-husbanded will dry up and fade. Did you see the apple seed parable the Lord showed me? Seed on the pulpit: Housekeeping mistakes it for dust and goes to get the vacuum. Grounds mistakes it for compost and goes to fetch the bin. Stewardship sees it...and declares, "Oh look! An orchard." And moves to buy the whole field. He has a lifetime of service ahead for that seed.

I'll just leave this here. 😏

It's like I said, we are all wrong. We just have times when we think we are right and we fight about it and rend each other like pit bulls. Then years later we discover something that changes things in how we understand what we fought for, long after we forgot that we ever fought over it.

This is also false...We are not always wrong. And at times we could be. I had a lifetime ambition to translate St. Exupéry's Le Petit Prince. Every English translation was an assault on my sensibilities...terrible. Until, to my dismay, in 2014 a new translation came out that captured St. Ex's heart even better than I could...I was amazed, and told my classes to buy that version when we read the French. They could watch how the two languages differ, and what it takes to capture the depth of his whimsy.

If "in/of" was the only thing we had wrong, then impotent wouldn't be a worry, except for this. But the church is divisive, and thus it must be wrong. Somewhere. Everyone. So we are not simply an "in/of" away from any greater understanding.

No...Too true. You're correct...we're as wrong as we are unwilling to obey.

The good thing (maybe): God's got this thing. He's going to make sure that we get to the final chapter the way that he wants us to. And when we have opportunity in eternity to sit and ask about "in/of" we can hear Jesus say, "That's not important. Here, have some bread. Drink some wine. Let me tell you a story about when Gabriel...." And we all laugh.

It is important to believe God. It is equally to know what to believe...and why.

 

[tbeachhead]

Do you infallibly interpret Scripture?

Help me. Watch and see. Feel free to point out where I fail. That's how we help each other! And thanks for asking!

 

[Mik]

Help me. Watch and see. Feel free to point out where I fail. That's how we help each other! And thanks for asking!

I believe the question was: Do you infallibly interpret Scripture? I believe it is a pretty simple question and you seem like a fairly bright guy.

 

[tbeachhead]

Just like The Godfather. Opening scene was a shooting, if I recall.

No...Well...not the first one. It was a wedding and a guy asking Brando to avenge his daughter.

Ah yes, the end of Hebrews 11. The catch bucket for when God lies.

"Here, have the faith of a mustard seed."
"Yes, I will !!"
"Oh, not you. You did great but miracles aren't on the menu for today. Try again next time."

Much more like do not stop believing... They were strangers in a strange land looking for a city whose builder and maker is God. A brick is not always put in place at the first tier. The stone that the builders rejected, if they're building a pyramid...would be pointed on all sides, and look exactly like the pyrmid that's being shaped...if it becomes the head of the corner. We must believe despite what we see...and that gives rise to every comment you've made.

Awesome. And she's still dead, I'm alone, and my faith is in that bucket I mentioned.

Like this one. If there's farming material and some soil in that bucket, it just might be enough to produce. I'm cheering you on, too.

Oh yeah!! Like a stroke that leaves me thinking clearly, but with no ability to speak or move about like a well person. Trapped in a demented storage room of pain. Or am I not supposed to claim that I'm blown away by it all for fear of a tornado ripping off the door.

There is no limit on is to think, say or do...not all is productive.

God has a joke: it's called mankind. If he's omnipotent, why can't he write a book that everyone can understand in the same manner? No, he created us to be stupid and sow confusion and cause division. See? He made me!!

No...but he has a technique by which we become like him (if you can imagine!). And He's the programmer with the requisite skill necessary to produce His kith and His kin.

So to be clear, I don't doubt a word of this. But what we think is good is not good as a human would describe. God has different meanings. What we think of as love is not love as a human would want. God has a different meaning. And he didn't clearly tell us. But he has shown some of us, and now I understand some of this -- and it makes the end of Hebrews 11 clear. That is not some "oh by the way, sometimes it isn't exactly how you want it" kind of thing, but rather should be read as "God had this pain and suffering in mind from the start just to be sadistic." I mean, after all, he has something to teach the ones that surround the innocent people who got screwed. I think he calls that being Godly.

Yeah, no...and there was joy set before Jesus that he saw and knew...and therefore He endured. That same joy has been set before us...the very same way. How we endure for or reject ourright the joy is our choice. I have not suffered as you have. I cannot even comment on your lot...but I have seen a furtive glimpse of the joy He saw, and I can imagine what it was like then the stone was removed.

And your confidence doesn't lead to anything other than your self confidence. And when that confidence doesn't play out, we run to the end of Hebrews 11 because God said that sometimes it won't work.....but you're doing fine.

My confidence leads to patient endurance...James spoke of it...so did Paul. I know the promise and therefore I hope, despite my own weakness and failing.

Oh no. Godly handling of us is quite worse than this, and that is supposed to be good for us. We learn a lot from the pain.

We learn practically nothing from pain. We learn from endurance.

I did mention an acquaintance who is in LaVeyan Satanism. He loves his neighbor. He'd outshine the best Christian I know in service of others.

Your point? A works based religion? "Do what thou wilt is the whole extent of the Law." That doesn't often turn into competitive Christian love. I don't know the guy, but the rituals do not commend themselves to obedience to God's Law.

Dialects aren't taught, Peter. Dialects simply are -- maybe because the speaker hasn't been properly taught. I gave you a link. There are many dialects throughout France.

There are accents. If they're calling regional accents "dialects" I'll adjust my own understanding for their sake...but where the grammar does not change, the language remains intact.

"I speak Créole" French: Je parle Créole. Créole: Mwa parler Créole
"You speak Créole" French: Tu parles Créole. Créole: Ou parler Créole
"Y'all speak Créole" French: Vous parlez Créole. Créole: Ou parler Créole
Créole is a dialect...the grammar changes. The accent in Paris, Marseille, Montréal, Québec City, or Ouagadougou would produces different pronunciations of the French...but the language and grammar remain intact, and get taught in the schools universally. I understand that in Haïti, in some schools, classes are being conducted in Créole...but most are still conducted in French, and so most Haïtiens are bi-lingual. That might have changed over time.

 

[tbeachhead]

I believe the question was: Do you infallibly interpret Scripture? I believe it is a pretty simple question and you seem like a fairly bright guy.

I believe my answer was, "Help me. Watch and see. Feel free to point out where I fail. That's how we help each other! And thanks for asking!" I really do not mean to be obtuse, but to be clear, that would be and is my intent, as I'm sure it is yours.

Certainly the critics here claim to "interpret scriptures infallibly", or they rely for their interpretation on those who interpret it ubiquitously correctly. I try to be accurate, and appreciate it when my interpretation is questioned. It's always valuable to me to reexamine what I put forth.

 

[Mik]

I believe my answer was, "Help me. Watch and see. Feel free to point out where I fail. That's how we help each other! And thanks for asking!" I really do not mean to be obtuse, but to be clear, that would be and is my intent, as I'm sure it is yours.

Certainly the critics here claim to "interpret scriptures infallibly", or they rely for their interpretation on those who interpret it ubiquitously correctly. I try to be accurate, and appreciate it when my interpretation is questioned. It's always valuable to me to reexamine what I put forth.

-So you don't claim to 'interpret scripture infallibly'...only the 'critics here'? (can you give me an example where a 'critics here' claimed this?)

-So you never relied on another's interpretation? Or is your interpretation infallible?

-Have you ever been wrong in your interpretation of Scripture?

 

[tbeachhead]

-So you don't claim to 'interpret scripture infallibly'

I make no claim. I seek to interpret scripture correctly, and especially here, where an adversarial role is forced upon us, it is even more important I take care. When I err...your correction is sought.

...only the 'critics here'? (can you give me an example where a 'critics here' claimed this?)

Critics here, if you've followed any thread where interpretation is disputed, as in this one, defer to "ubiquitous scholarship" which defers to itself as infallible...because of it's antiquity. In this specious argument, there is no such thing as "ancient error." Error becomes infallible interpretation if it survives, in the scholars' eyes, an arbitrary amount of time.

-So you never relied on another's interpretation? Or is your interpretation infallible?

Any interpretation is subjective. I don't rely on or defer to another...but I enjoy following their efforts and their contribution to its conclusion, good or otherwise. In terms of translations...I have favorites, and I read many. When questions arise, due diligence is my own domain, and I'm responsible for the answers I choose. When I choose a scholar's interpretation, I defer to that scholar.

-Have you ever been wrong in your interpretation of Scripture?

Never...that I haven't been willing to correct myself. The goal is not error, after all. You did notice that I look forward to correction, didn't you? Did I not make that clear?

Can I ask what you're getting at? You seem petulant. Did I offend you?

 

[Yodas_Prodigy]

Never...that I haven't been willing to correct myself. The goal is not error, after all. You did notice that I look forward to correction, didn't you? Did I not make that clear?

So, name three times you have been corrected in these forums by a "Critic" over the last 20 years where you knew you were wrong and admitted it...

Can I ask what you're getting at? You seem petulant. Did I offend you?

No, after three posts, Mik has your MO...

 

[BlessedAnomaly]

I am a teacher. Teach is on the top of my list. Persuade is on the bottom. If I believe truth, and teach you to observe, to think and discern...you, too, will believe, because Truth is persuasive of itself, and without help.

If I feel I have to "persuade" you that something is true, it probably isn't. I leave my deposit to be examined and evaluated.

Um, you should revisit a dictionary as to what "persuade" means.

If I teach a child that 1 plus 1 is equal to 2, then I persuade him to that fact. Persuade does not indicate some sort of trickery. It is "reasoning or argument" (Oxford, btw). Bottom line: if you teach, you persuade. It's what you do.

Naah...Jesus didn't spew nonsense to produce overwhelming impotence.

Or you can't budge from your presuppositions.

That's what folks who go with "ubiquitous interpretations" do.

You mean the ones who know Greek far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far better than you? It's funny how I had a multiple email conversation with the man over one verse in scripture, was allowed to reproduce this phrase, and from this phrase you denigrate and disparage the man.

Please, Pete, tell me the deep reasons why -- and don't leave out any detail -- he used the term "ubiquitous understanding." Tell me about the long conversation that you were not privy to. Tell me all the details as to why this had to be the conclusion.

Or you can just throw mud some more. Because you obviously understand Greek translation -- across the board, not just looking at biblehub and blueletterbible -- far, far better than men who do not use biblehub, men who understand Greek so well that they can speak it, read it, write it, transliterate it, translate it, and even screw it up sometimes -- but they screw it up in a way that still has more intelligence about Greek than you or I possess.

This comment from you is downright ignorant.

The student will wind up exactly as impotent as the teacher, and you have ubiquitous impotence as a fruit.

Oh the world is so blessed to have you writing on public forums.

Agreed. I fell off a roof, shattered my ankle (pilon fracture). I was to be on crutches for months. He pronounced my healing. I was on my crutches for months. He wasn't Jesus, and I didn't have that kind of faith. I would fault him for not saying...and I'll always fault me for not having enough "tree"...but not for lack of growth. I'm older now, and still believing for the fulfillment...as every one of those in Hebrews 12 died believing. I understand that "The night came...No man can work." And I know that night is far spent. The church will arise and surpass that of Acts 2 in manifestation. Jesus said we'd do his works, and left the limitations to that promise up to us to artificially enforce. I do not enforce limitations, but they are ubiquitously enforced and have been for centuries. MacArthur suggests that enforcement of these limitations is "good exegesis."

And if you fractured a bone tomorrow you would still be on crutches for months.

My wedding...Not "dry up and go away." I usually only pray for "a dome of high pressure over us." The rain struck all around us, the newspapers published maps of the lightning strikes, we had our garden reception, and then the rain commenced when we went in to the formal dining room to continue. I really do not care what you call it...we called it "time for thanksgiving." My atheist brother/best man, stationed in Germany and the only member of my family who could come to Sweden to the wedding, watched the clouds part, go around the churchyard, and join themselves together on the other side of the church, and said, "If you ever wanted a sign..." That was a miracle whatever you want to call the phenomenal weather. (And who cares what anyone calls it. It's ridiculous not to be grateful for the unforgettable event that we still discuss from time to time on CARM!)

I currently have a hole in my roof. The roofers will be here the week of November 15th to fix my roof. That's how busy we are here because of bad storms that this desert does not usually get (but we do get them cyclically, so climate change advocates can kiss my...) My office began to take in water, so I had to stand guard with a ShopVac to suck up any water that came in.

This led me to watch Radar apps on my computer to see if we were going to get rain so I could prepare. More than once I saw a major storm form in the mountains, come down toward my house and literally split in the middle and go around me.

• I didn't pray
• After my wife's death, I told God he could only sit on the other side of the room if he visited
• I yell at God constantly
• I blame God constantly

And you'll tell me he loves me anyway, so he split the storm anyway. Except that he didn't split the storm the other 12 times and my room is in ruins. And why does he have to split the storm, knowing what he knows, he could have just had the storm not show up in the first place.

It's never "of a", but always "as a"...it must grow or it isn't,

Matt 17:20 --
AMP - size of a mustard seed
KJV/NKJV - as a grain of mustard seed <--
NASB - size of a mustard seed
NET - size of a mustard seed
NIV - faith as small as a mustard seed <--
NRSV - size of a mustard seed

Ok, we have to throw out half the bible translations (ok, Ted, all of them). So Pete's criteria says that the NIV is the most accurate. (My words, his mouth.)

It's little things like this that make it funny that you are trying to school me on language and language translation. Even I can see the fallacy in your methods.

and so I can show you in the parable of the four fields where it gets "used up" from too much sunlight...and persecution and events of this world.

So you don't have faith. Since God measures out faith, this would mean that God is in charge of whether you have faith or not. So you couldn't produce a miracle on cue if you wanted -- it's up to God.

And if you can't, then when God measured your faith he made sure it was smaller than a mustard seed. Because IF your faith was but the size "as a" (for you) mustard seed nothing would be impossible. But obviously some things are not accomplished, so God is playing with us and laughing at us .... and your argument goes up in smoke

Seeds that are not well-husbanded will dry up and fade.

I don't recall seeing husbandry lessons with the mustard seed. Just IF you had faith the size of a mustard seed, THEN....

So now there is some translational stuff that doesn't fall in the "ubiquitous understanding" of the mustard seed that says that we had to.... No, Jesus said what he said clearly. IF....THEN.

Did you see the apple seed parable the Lord showed me? Seed on the pulpit: Housekeeping mistakes it for dust and goes to get the vacuum. Grounds mistakes it for compost and goes to fetch the bin. Stewardship sees it...and declares, "Oh look! An orchard." And moves to buy the whole field. He has a lifetime of service ahead for that seed.

.

This is also false...We are not always wrong.

Where did I say we are "always wrong?" I don't recall saying that ever. I don't see it here.

And at times we could be.

I said something closer to this. Only I left out "could" and said we are. At times. But that nobody -- no group -- is right. We are all wrong.

I had a lifetime ambition to translate St. Exupéry's Le Petit Prince. Every English translation was an assault on my sensibilities...terrible. Until, to my dismay, in 2014 a new translation came out that captured St. Ex's heart even better than I could...I was amazed,

You should get a picture in your head of Dr. Wallace and repeat the bolded phrase above until you can apologize for what you did to his words, and thus to him.

and told my classes to buy that version when we read the French. They could watch how the two languages differ, and what it takes to capture the depth of his whimsy.
No...Too true. You're correct...we're as wrong as we are unwilling to obey.

We are wrong, mostly. We were built that way. We are sinners, not because we sin, but because we were built that way. If this were not true -- if we are sinners because we sin -- then show me one human who is not also God that is sinless.

It is important to believe God. It is equally to know what to believe...and why.

It's important to believe in God. He's got the details. We should simply let the Spirit teach us and we should learn. Should. Until he lies and kills our wives. Then you simply don't want to play the game any longer (except that you mysteriously find yourself on forums defending the truth of his Word - funny about that).

 

[BlessedAnomaly]

Help me. Watch and see. Feel free to point out where I fail. That's how we help each other! And thanks for asking!

This is likely what Ted means when he says you equivocate. You didn't answer the question asked, but rather hid your answer in so many words.

 

[BlessedAnomaly]

We learn practically nothing from pain. We learn from endurance.

I know only pain.

Your point? A works based religion? "Do what thou wilt is the whole extent of the Law." That doesn't often turn into competitive Christian love. I don't know the guy, but the rituals do not commend themselves to obedience to God's Law.

You brought up and kept pounding the love and work. I even altered Acts for you and you skipped right over it.

As far as that guy, he made no allusion to "obedience to God's Law." And what are these rituals that you speak of? Do tell.

There are accents. If they're calling regional accents "dialects" I'll adjust my own understanding for their sake...but where the grammar does not change, the language remains intact.

"I speak Créole" French: Je parle Créole. Créole: Mwa parler Créole
"You speak Créole" French: Tu parles Créole. Créole: Ou parler Créole
"Y'all speak Créole" French: Vous parlez Créole. Créole: Ou parler Créole
Créole is a dialect...the grammar changes. The accent in Paris, Marseille, Montréal, Québec City, or Ouagadougou would produces different pronunciations of the French...but the language and grammar remain intact, and get taught in the schools universally. I understand that in Haïti, in some schools, classes are being conducted in Créole...but most are still conducted in French, and so most Haïtiens are bi-lingual. That might have changed over time.

Aaaaaaand once again Pete knows more than the experts of a subject. Go study it, Pete. There are dialects. Major languages have them. If the language spreads out too far then people begin to change it for their purposes. In this case, it is still French, but it is a French dialect. Different from the official, but still understood to be French. I'm sorry that you are too proud to see this, but it is true. Research it.

 

[tbeachhead]

This is likely what Ted means when he says you equivocate. You didn't answer the question asked, but rather hid your answer in so many words.

You find this equivocating? "To use ambiguous language so as to conceal the truth or avoid committing oneself."

I'm asked, "Do you infallibly interpret Scripture?"
I answered: Help me...."Not without your help." I am implying that that is the goal, but I mention that this should be of all of us our goal. I assume you believe you are correctly interpreting Scripture.

Watch and see. "We read each others posts." When you see me err, I trust you will point it out.

Feel free to point out where I fail. "I'm open to correction." It's clear that I expect to err at some point, and I will examine your analysis.

That's how we help each other! And thanks for asking! "This is what fellowship and iron sharpening iron is all about."

I am truly sorry that you found this ambiguous. After twenty years here, not to see that I have been corrected, and have also been correct despite well-intentioned albeit erroneous "correction" reveals more about you than it does about me.

 

[tbeachhead]

So, name three times you have been corrected in these forums by a "Critic" over the last 20 years where you knew you were wrong and admitted it...

I can't Joe. I was corrected and moved on. The number of times I've said to you or Ted or James that you were correct over the years...and apologized, has been forgotten by you. Can you name a single time where you've said, Pete's right?

I have a harder time finding any instance.

No, after three posts, Mik has your MO...

Or he's revealed the ranks he's joined. I guess you're thinking it makes sense to ask someone if they believe they are "infallible"? To me, the question is bizarre and not conducive to civil or even any meaningful discourse. Let's talk about where we disagree, and examine our disagreement. I start with the assumption that we're brothers, and that you're well meaning, even in your acrimony. It's more productive to highlight error than it is to impugn the one making a point. My dubious infallibility has very little to do with a single facet of Greek grammar about which I have sufficient acumen to voice an opinion. I am capable of producing correct analysis from time to time.

I'm a teacher. Teachers err...I teach my kids to point out my error as I'm writing on the board. They win points for that. I don't swirl counterclockwise around the toilet bowl because my kids caught me making a mistake. I'm enjoy communication with those who can see error and expound on what they see and why.