wof and Matthew 17:1-13

Tallen

Tallen

Well-known member
And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him. And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid. And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid. And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only. And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead. And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come? And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist. (Mat 17:1-13, KJV)
 
Tallen said:
And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him. And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid. And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid. And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only. And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead. And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come? And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist. (Mat 17:1-13, KJV)
Click to expand...
I guess Joe was right: it all happened by 70AD. I mean, I'm sure it's in there somewhere. ?‍♂️
 
Tallen said:
And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him. And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid. And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid. And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only. And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead. And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come? And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist. (Mat 17:1-13, KJV)
Click to expand...

This certainly is not the fulfillment of the following:

Matthew 16:28
New American Standard Bible
28 “Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”
 
Yodas_Prodigy said:
This certainly is not the fulfillment of the following:

Matthew 16:28
New American Standard Bible
28 “Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”
Click to expand...
Just a note: if this is in any way an answer against what I joked about, my words were just that....joking. Ted, as usual, posts a group of verses and gives no context as to what he is looking at. So most have noted in the past they don't know what conversation to have. Usually in a forum, the OP is bringing up something that the poster wants to discuss. Not with Ted -- he's trying to raise dead bones. I just didn't want it to continue to sit, cold and dead, with no one talking on it, hovering over them dry bones.
 
Yodas_Prodigy said:
This certainly is not the fulfillment of the following:

Matthew 16:28
New American Standard Bible
28 “Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”
Click to expand...
I'm intrigued...what brings you to say that?

Here are a couple observations...Jesus prophesies this in chapter 16 and immediately after the prophecy, some of them, who have not tasted death, see the Son of Adam glorified in His Kingdom attire.

What does the Son of Man coming in His Kingdom look like, exactly? Some might say, "Clothed in Glory..." and some might say, "Exhibiting the power and authority of the King" in the case of a child with seizures. What do you think?

And do you accept Jesus' interpretation of Malachi, that John the Baptist was the fulfillment of the coming of Elijah? And did Jesus make the prophecy of two separate fulfillments? Is that now acceptable hermeneutics?
 
tbeachhead said:
And do you accept Jesus' interpretation of Malachi, that John the Baptist was the fulfillment of the coming of Elijah? And did Jesus make the prophecy of two separate fulfillments? Is that now acceptable hermeneutics?
Click to expand...
I've always found that interesting. Malachi said what he said and if you took it as a literalist you would say Elijah is coming back. It was really meant to be type though....and John the Baptist according to Jesus did fulfill it. So it's seems especially along prophetic things that there's a certain looseness of where you're not supposed to take everything literally and so one wonders about other prophecies as well. It's true they will happen but maybe not in a rigid way how one would interpret it.
 
Rockson said:
I've always found that interesting. Malachi said what he said and if you took it as a literalist you would say Elijah is coming back. It was really meant to be type though....and John the Baptist according to Jesus did fulfill it. So it's seems especially along prophetic things that there's a certain looseness of where you're not supposed to take everything literally and so one wonders about other prophecies as well. It's true they will happen but maybe not in a rigid way how one would interpret it.
Click to expand...
Jesus seems to give me license to accept John as both type...and shadow of what's ahead. I do believe there is a coming "Elijah generation" that was heralded and hinted at during the New Wine outpourings, and in the early days of MSG (Manifest Sons of God). I look for greater days ahead that the church has not yet seen. I even have a prophecy from 1619 that I found in seminary that points to that,
 
tbeachhead said:
Jesus seems to give me license to accept John as both type...and shadow of what's ahead. I do believe there is a coming "Elijah generation" that was heralded and hinted at during the New Wine outpourings, and in the early days of MSG (Manifest Sons of God). I look for greater days ahead that the church has not yet seen. I even have a prophecy from 1619 that I found in seminary that points to that,
Click to expand...
Interesting.
 
tbeachhead said:
I'm intrigued...what brings you to say that?

Here are a couple observations...Jesus prophesies this in chapter 16 and immediately after the prophecy, some of them, who have not tasted death, see the Son of Adam glorified in His Kingdom attire.

What does the Son of Man coming in His Kingdom look like, exactly? Some might say, "Clothed in Glory..." and some might say, "Exhibiting the power and authority of the King" in the case of a child with seizures. What do you think?

And do you accept Jesus' interpretation of Malachi, that John the Baptist was the fulfillment of the coming of Elijah? And did Jesus make the prophecy of two separate fulfillments? Is that now acceptable hermeneutics?
Click to expand...

Not trying to be sarcastic. Let's look at His words carefully...

28 “Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”

Jesus said some will not taste death until His coming... That means most standing there will be dead before Christ comes in His Kingdom... Taking that a step further... SOME will be alive when he Comes into His Kingdom...
 
Yodas_Prodigy said:
Not trying to be sarcastic. Let's look at His words carefully...

28 “Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”

Jesus said some will not taste death until His coming... That means most standing there will be dead before Christ comes in His Kingdom... Taking that a step further... SOME will be alive when he Comes into His Kingdom...
Click to expand...
It says, “Until THEY SEE…” Why did you truncate “They see…”? That changes the entire sense of the promise. Three saw something no one else saw…The son of Adam clothed in power.
 
Yodas_Prodigy said:
Not trying to be sarcastic. Let's look at His words carefully...

28 “Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”

Jesus said some will not taste death until His coming... That means most standing there will be dead before Christ comes in His Kingdom... Taking that a step further... SOME will be alive when he Comes into His Kingdom...
Click to expand...
"That is, die:

till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom; which is not to be understood of his personal coming in his kingdom in the last day, when he will judge quick and dead; for it cannot be thought, that any then present should live to that time, but all tasted of death long before, as they have done; for the story of John's being alive, and to live till then, is fabulous, and grounded on a mistake which John himself has rectified at the close of his Gospel: nor of the glorious transfiguration of Christ, the account of which immediately follows; when he was seen by Peter, James, and John, persons now present; for that, at most, was but an emblem and a pledge of his future glory: rather, of the appearance of his kingdom, in greater glory and power, upon his resurrection from the dead, and his ascension to heaven; when the Spirit was poured down in an extraordinary manner, and the Gospel was preached all over the world; was confirmed by signs and wonders, and made effectual to the conversion and salvation of many souls; which many then present lived to see, and were concerned in: though it seems chiefly to have regard to his coming, to show his regal power and authority in the destruction of the Jews; when those his enemies that would not he should reign over them, were ordered to be brought and slain before him; and this the Apostle John, for one, lived to be a witness of."
 
tbeachhead said:
It says, “Until THEY SEE…” Why did you truncate “They see…”? That changes the entire sense of the promise. Three saw something no one else saw…The son of Adam clothed in power.
Click to expand...

I did not truncate anything intentionally... I think you are misunderstanding the post... "Until they see" is obviously speaking of the few who are still alive... Those who died will not see...
 
Yodas_Prodigy said:
28 “Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”
Click to expand...
From the glorious NET translation's footnotes:

d. Matthew 16:28 sn Several suggestions have been made as to the referent for the phrase the Son of Man coming in his kingdom: (1) the transfiguration itself, which immediately follows in the narrative; (2) Jesus’ resurrection and ascension; (3) the coming of the Spirit; (4) Christ’s role in the Church; (5) the destruction of Jerusalem; (6) Jesus’ second coming and the establishment of the kingdom. The reference to six days later in 17:1 seems to indicate that Matthew had the transfiguration in mind insofar as it was a substantial prefiguring of the consummation of the kingdom (although this interpretation is not without its problems). As such, the transfiguration would be a tremendous confirmation to the disciples that even though Jesus had just finished speaking of his death (in vv. 21-23), he was nonetheless the promised Messiah and things were proceeding according to God’s plan.
 
BlessedAnomaly said:
From the glorious NET translation's footnotes:

d. Matthew 16:28 sn Several suggestions have been made as to the referent for the phrase the Son of Man coming in his kingdom: (1) the transfiguration itself, which immediately follows in the narrative; (2) Jesus’ resurrection and ascension; (3) the coming of the Spirit; (4) Christ’s role in the Church; (5) the destruction of Jerusalem; (6) Jesus’ second coming and the establishment of the kingdom. The reference to six days later in 17:1 seems to indicate that Matthew had the transfiguration in mind insofar as it was a substantial prefiguring of the consummation of the kingdom (although this interpretation is not without its problems). As such, the transfiguration would be a tremendous confirmation to the disciples that even though Jesus had just finished speaking of his death (in vv. 21-23), he was nonetheless the promised Messiah and things were proceeding according to God’s plan.
Click to expand...
The problem with the Transfiguration is that Christ did not come into His Kingdom at that time. And everyone was still alive.

The problem with the Resurrection and the Ascension is that most of the people who heard Jesus say His words were still alive. The same with the coming of the Spirit.

I don't see it related to the Second Coming because everyone who was with Jesus is now dead.

Of the list provided, number five makes the most sense - most were dead by then and some were still alive...
 
Yodas_Prodigy said:
The problem with the Transfiguration is that Christ did not come into His Kingdom at that time. And everyone was still alive.
Click to expand...
The Transfiguration was a vision into the Kingdom.

From NET translation footnote--
(underline mine)

c. Matthew 7:2 sn In first century Judaism and in the NT, it was believed that the righteous would be given new, glorified bodies in order to enter heaven (cf. 1 Cor 15:42-49; 2 Cor 5:1-10). This transformation meant that the righteous will share the Glory of God. The account of Jesus transfiguration here recalls the way Moses shared the Lord's glory after his visit to the mountain in Exod 34:28-35. So the disciples saw Jesus transfigured, and they were getting a private preview of the great glory that Jesus would have following his exaltation.​
 
BlessedAnomaly said:
The Transfiguration was a vision into the Kingdom.

From NET translation footnote--
(underline mine)

c. Matthew 7:2 sn In first century Judaism and in the NT, it was believed that the righteous would be given new, glorified bodies in order to enter heaven (cf. 1 Cor 15:42-49; 2 Cor 5:1-10). This transformation meant that the righteous will share the Glory of God. The account of Jesus transfiguration here recalls the way Moses shared the Lord's glory after his visit to the mountain in Exod 34:28-35. So the disciples saw Jesus transfigured, and they were getting a private preview of the great glory that Jesus would have following his exaltation.​
Click to expand...
Thank you for confirming my point...
 
Yodas_Prodigy said:
Thank you for confirming my point...
Click to expand...
Even the Jews misread scripture thinking Messiah was to be a warrior. It's ok, YP, you can admit your error. ?

So, according to Matt 16:28, there are those who "would not taste death" and would see this glorious event. Yet, when they did, it wasn't great enough to write yet another gospel message proclaiming what they saw? They couldn't be bothered? God couldn't be bothered?
 
BlessedAnomaly said:
Even the Jews misread scripture thinking Messiah was to be a warrior. It's ok, YP, you can admit your error. ?

So, according to Matt 16:28, there are those who "would not taste death" and would see this glorious event. Yet, when they did, it wasn't great enough to write yet another gospel message proclaiming what they saw? They couldn't be bothered? God couldn't be bothered?
Click to expand...

The problem with the Transfiguration is that Christ did not come into His Kingdom at that time. And everyone was still alive.

Key words in your quote, "private preview .... following His exaltation"
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top