WoF and Revelation 9:16

BlessedAnomaly

Active member
Revelation 9:16
The number of soldiers on horseback was 200,000,000; I heard their number.​

The WoF would likely think: 200,000,000 times 10 percent. $$$ Jets, jets everywhere.

But what must the 1st century reader of this think? I mean the entire Roman Empire is estimated to be between 45 to 120 million at its peak. This is counting 5 year olds, wherein "half of the Roman subjects died by the age of 5" (Wiki-Demography of the Roman Empire). Must have been from putting them on horseback for Rev 9.
 

Yodas_Prodigy

Well-known member
Revelation 9:16
The number of soldiers on horseback was 200,000,000; I heard their number.​

The WoF would likely think: 200,000,000 times 10 percent. $$$ Jets, jets everywhere.

But what must the 1st century reader of this think? I mean the entire Roman Empire is estimated to be between 45 to 120 million at its peak. This is counting 5 year olds, wherein "half of the Roman subjects died by the age of 5" (Wiki-Demography of the Roman Empire). Must have been from putting them on horseback for Rev 9.

From what I have read, the Greek word means myriads of myriads... This is representative of an innumerable swarm...
 

BlessedAnomaly

Active member
From what I have read, the Greek word means myriads of myriads... This is representative of an innumerable swarm...
200,000,000? The word that YLT is calling myriad literally means 10,000. δύο μυριάδες μυριάδων. So this is phrase is actually twenty thousand ten thousands. Different translations use slightly different ways to say it, like KJV says two hundred thousand thousand; NRSV says two hundred million; ESV says twice ten thousand times ten thousand. Is there a translation that uses "myriad of myriads?" I see YLT. Other than that scholarship seems to be united on 2 million.

And, as I read closer, in verse 18, they say that the horses are releasing three plagues (v18 - fire, smoke, brimstone). (Some say that what John is seeing here but can't describe, is tanks.)

What is interesting (for a first century understanding) is that in v14b (intent) and v18 (actual event) one third of humanity is killed by the horses (plagues).

There was no event in the late first century that took out 1/3 of mankind.
 

Yodas_Prodigy

Well-known member
200,000,000? The word that YLT is calling myriad literally means 10,000. δύο μυριάδες μυριάδων. So this is phrase is actually twenty thousand ten thousands. Different translations use slightly different ways to say it, like KJV says two hundred thousand thousand; NRSV says two hundred million; ESV says twice ten thousand times ten thousand. Is there a translation that uses "myriad of myriads?" I see YLT. Other than that scholarship seems to be united on 2 million.

And, as I read closer, in verse 18, they say that the horses are releasing three plagues (v18 - fire, smoke, brimstone). (Some say that what John is seeing here but can't describe, is tanks.)

What is interesting (for a first century understanding) is that in v14b (intent) and v18 (actual event) one third of humanity is killed by the horses (plagues).

There was no event in the late first century that took out 1/3 of mankind.

Revelation 9:17
New King James Version
17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision: those who sat on them had breastplates of fiery red, hyacinth blue, and sulfur yellow; and the heads of the horses were like the heads of lions; and out of their mouths came fire, smoke, and brimstone.

The Horses had heads like those of Lions... They breathed fire, smoke, and brimstone... That is literally scary ;)
 

BlessedAnomaly

Active member
I don't buy it. These were literally horses with lions' heads who exhaled fire, smoke, and brimstone...
If you're not joking: And where are the horses with lions' heads in the first century?

If you are joking: :ROFLMAO:

And either way, is it beyond God's power to sent horses with lions' heads?? You've seen the description of the Cherubim and Seraphim around the throne.
 

BlessedAnomaly

Active member
Revelation 9:17
New King James Version
17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision: those who sat on them had breastplates of fiery red, hyacinth blue, and sulfur yellow; and the heads of the horses were like the heads of lions; and out of their mouths came fire, smoke, and brimstone.

The Horses had heads like those of Lions... They breathed fire, smoke, and brimstone... That is literally scary ;)
You didn't show me 1/3 of humanity being obliterated in the 70 AD.
 

BlessedAnomaly

Active member
I can't see a Futurist and a Preterist finding much eschatological agreement...
An Amillennialist sitting at a bar watches a Futurist and a Preterist walk in.

The Futurist goes to the bar and tells the bartender, "Hey, pour me an Armageddon" (a sour raspberry drink). The bartender tells him, "Oh, we had that last month. No more. All done." The Futurist leaves angry.

The Preterist then comes up to the bar and asks the bartender, "Hey let me have an Armageddon." The bartender replies, "Oh, that's not coming in until next month. You've got to wait." The Preterist frowns and stomps out of the bar.

The Amillennialist says to the bartender, "You're a jerk, you know that?"
 

Slyzr

Well-known member
From what I have read, the Greek word means myriads of myriads... This is representative of an innumerable swarm...

This made me laugh.

Remember, this song?

.

THEY RUSH ON THE CITY - HIGHER PRAISE: WORSHIP SONGS ...

they rush on the city, they run on the wall for great is the army that carries out his word they rush on the city they run on the wall for great is the army that carries out his word the lord utters his voice before his army the lord utters his voice before his army blow the trumpet in zion, zion sound an alarm in my holy mountain blow the trumpet in zion, zion sound an alarm "c minor"

My brother and I were new converts; and they used to sing this, ad-nausia at the local WoF offering.

Anyway, one day my brother tells me these people do not know what they are talking about (G version)

I'm like, what are you talking about?

The song is about a swarm / plague of Locusts.

nO 5..
..
 

Slyzr

Well-known member
[Editing issue]

continued from above.

Any way ........ my brother pulls out his bible and explains the text to me.



Not sure how much I believed it,

HOWEVER, ..........

With HD photos and video's, it is spot on obvious.



Revelation 9:17
New King James Version

17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision: those who sat on them had breastplates of fiery red, h0yacinth blue, and sulfur yellow; and the heads of the horses were like the heads of lions; and out of their mouths came fire, smoke, and brimstone.

Same thing ........

bd

...
 
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Tallen

Active member
This is all highly figurative apocalyptic language (Revelation)..., the best you can do is speculate what it means by asserting presupposition and hermeneutics.

You both are displaying great isogesis of the text. 😉
 

Tallen

Active member
Where within this text does it say this is a human army and horses that are real horses?

And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God, saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates. And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men. And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them. And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone. By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths. For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt. And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk: neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.
Revelation 9:13‭-‬21 KJV

Hmmm... 🤔

It seems to me that the funny looking horses and their riders are representing the power of the angels that are going to kill a third of mankind.
 
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Slyzr

Well-known member
This is all highly figurative apocalyptic language (Revelation)..., the best you can do is speculate what it means by asserting presupposition and hermeneutics.

You both are displaying great isogesis of the text. 😉

1) The text is describing a vision.
.
.2a) Exegesis .......... the Lord will defend Jerusalem.

How's that?

..
 

BlessedAnomaly

Active member
Where within this text does it say this is a human army and horses that are real horses?
Nowhere.

I offered this....
(Some say that what John is seeing here but can't describe, is tanks.)
To which Joe said they were real horses with lion heads (he could have been joking).

And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God, saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates. And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men. And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them. And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone. By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths. For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt. And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk: neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.
Revelation 9:13‭-‬21 KJV

Hmmm... 🤔

It seems to me that the funny looking horses and their riders are representing the power of the angels that are going to kill a third of mankind.
It seems to me the funny looking horses and their riders could be anything, given John's first century understanding. Since John is standing next to an angel, if they were angels, John would say so. But he does know what fire is. And smoke. And sulphur (stuff from volcanoes). It's just these funny looking things that are "breathing" the stuff.

And then there is the very visible (to John) fact of 1/3 of mankind dead. Haven't seen that yet.
 

Tallen

Active member
And then there is the very visible (to John) fact of 1/3 of mankind dead. Haven't seen that yet.
I have to agree... probably a future event as a result of the angels being released upon mankind.

As far as "tanks"... I highly doubt that is the explanation. That is something that Premil folks seem to do... read things from their current experience from current events into scripture. A highly suspect endeavor since this is apocryphal and figurative language to begin with.
 

Slyzr

Well-known member
..
.
.
.
Nowhere.

I offered this....

To which Joe said they were real horses with lion heads (he could have been joking).


It seems to me the funny looking horses and their riders could be anything, given John's first century understanding. Since John is standing next to an angel, if they were angels, John would say so. But he does know what fire is. And smoke. And sulphur (stuff from volcanoes). It's just these funny looking things that are "breathing" the stuff.

And then there is the very visible (to John) fact of 1/3 of mankind dead. Haven't seen that yet.

LOL .......

They already did it.

Maybe the text is explaining, how they did it spiritually.

Isn't it the revelation of Jesus Christ?


BD


.
 

Slyzr

Well-known member
Then we should agree that to read that into this passage is isogesis. Right?

What do you think, YP?

I think this isogesis / exogesis is BS.

or put another way; well tell how to, NOT be.


'No opinion for you just die'. (exegesis)


and the counter....

Well, that is interesting; "how can I be then".

well ....... cough...... cough ...... by not being, of course.

So, your being, is NOT being?

Nope, we are.

.
 
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BlessedAnomaly

Active member
I have to agree... probably a future event as a result of the angels being released upon mankind.

As far as "tanks"... I highly doubt that is the explanation. That is something that Premil folks seem to do... read things from their current experience from current events into scripture. A highly suspect endeavor since this is apocryphal and figurative language to begin with.
Well....we can't read from our future experiences. Geesh!

The issue I have -- all strictly personal expression -- is that if people of a future time see angels with various animals body parts they are likely to "suddenly" believe in the supernatural more so than normal. This doesn't necessarily drive them to Christ, but then Revelation speaks of destruction and not necessarily a mass salvation. If people of a future time see their weapons of destruction causing, well, destruction, they will simply go into hiding -- with the one's who know some form of eschatology suddenly understanding "something" based upon their knowledge.

To date, prophecy has been fulfilled in a "natural" manner -- not with demons and angels showing up. Strange things, certainly, occur when the dead rise, severe sickness are healed, etc. But generally, things occur within some form of natural occurrence. I don't see why this would change until Jesus visibly descends and defeats the armies of the beast. Then it won't matter, that day, if people across the world had put on clean underwear that morning.
 
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