WoF and Revelation 9:16

Tallen

Well-known member
Well....we can't read from our future experiences. Geesh!

The issue I have -- all strictly personal expression -- is that if people of a future time see angels with various animals body parts they are likely to "suddenly" believe in the supernatural more so than normal. This doesn't necessarily drive them to Christ, but then Revelation speaks of destruction and not necessarily a mass salvation. If people of a future time see their weapons of destruction causing, well, destruction, they will simply go into hiding -- with the one's who know some form of eschatology suddenly understanding "something" based upon their knowledge.

To date, prophecy has been fulfilled in a "natural" manner -- not with demons and angels showing up. Strange things, certainly, occur when the dead rise, severe sickness are healed, etc. But generally, things occur within some form of natural occurrence. I don't see why this would change until Jesus visibly descends and defeats the armies of the beast. Then it won't matter, that day, if people across the world had put on clean underwear that morning.
Thanks for the pure speculation..., It's fun to read.

BTW, I suspect (my speculations) that the Revelation of Jesus Christ will come with plenty of super natural events. Just like His first coming.
 

Slyzr

Well-known member
Well....we can't read from our future experiences. Geesh!

The issue I have -- all strictly personal expression -- is that if people of a future time see angels with various animals body parts they are likely to "suddenly" believe in the supernatural more so than normal. This doesn't necessarily drive them to Christ, but then Revelation speaks of destruction and not necessarily a mass salvation. If people of a future time see their weapons of destruction causing, well, destruction, they will simply go into hiding -- with the one's who know some form of eschatology suddenly understanding "something" based upon their knowledge.

To date, prophecy has been fulfilled in a "natural" manner -- not with demons and angels showing up. Strange things, certainly, occur when the dead rise, severe sickness are healed, etc. But generally, things occur within some form of natural occurrence. I don't see why this would change until Jesus visibly descends and defeats the armies of the beast. /

Then it won't matter, that day, if people across the world had put on clean underwear that morning.

bolded above ..........

Welcome to Paul's conundrum.

'Put on clean underwear, that you may not be'.

You sure you are not LDS.

God ........ can I fart?

Only in not mattering son.

.
 
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Slyzr

Well-known member
.
Well....we can't read from our future experiences. Geesh!

The issue I have -- all strictly personal expression -- is that if people of a future time see angels with various animals body parts they are likely to "suddenly" believe in the supernatural more so than normal. This doesn't necessarily drive them to Christ, but then Revelation speaks of destruction and not necessarily a mass salvation. If people of a future time see their weapons of destruction causing, well, destruction, they will simply go into hiding -- with the one's who know some form of eschatology suddenly understanding "something" based upon their knowledge.

To date, prophecy has been fulfilled in a "natural" manner -- not with demons and angels showing up. Strange things, certainly, occur when the dead rise, severe sickness are healed, etc. But generally, things occur within some form of natural occurrence. I don't see why this would change until Jesus visibly descends and defeats the armies of the beast. Then it won't matter, that day, if people across the world had put on clean underwear that morning.

I'm on board with the physical "mother ship" coming down.

As far as prophecy goes that is another matter.

I have one for you. 'it will rain tomorrow'.

How can that be, how can one guarantee, it will rain tomorrow?


Simply put; 'one day is like a thousand years to the Lord'.

That is no guarantee, what if it does not rain for a thousand years.

No worries, bro.

We got that covered.

Impressive ........ how did you guys manage that.

We just prophesied everything got destroyed by fire.

What about the oceans?

The oceans are included in the everything.

How long?

No offense "bro"; but you seem new to the prophecy gambit.

1000 years.

Then what?

A new thing.
 

tbeachhead

Well-known member
Revelation 9:16
The number of soldiers on horseback was 200,000,000; I heard their number.​

The WoF would likely think: 200,000,000 times 10 percent. $$$ Jets, jets everywhere.

But what must the 1st century reader of this think? I mean the entire Roman Empire is estimated to be between 45 to 120 million at its peak. This is counting 5 year olds, wherein "half of the Roman subjects died by the age of 5" (Wiki-Demography of the Roman Empire). Must have been from putting them on horseback for Rev 9.
They were practically minded...I'm sure they were thinking "That's a lot of horse...who's going to clean up after all that horse stuff?"
 

tbeachhead

Well-known member
From what I have read, the Greek word means myriads of myriads... This is representative of an innumerable swarm...
It says "dismyriades (twice the number) myriadon (the number0" And myriad is defined in Strongs like this: an indefinitely large number, but strictly means "10,000"; (figuratively) a number too large to count (reckon). So literally you have twice 10,000 of ten thousands.
 

Yodas_Prodigy

Well-known member
Then we should agree that to read that into this passage is isogesis. Right?

What do you think, YP?

With apocalyptic language, none of us are getting it 100% right... I fall back on what was told to the Rich Man with Lazarus.

Don't they have the Law and the Prophets? There is no need for crazy monstrous beings. There is no for crazy speculation, like tanks... There is no need for stars and the sun to literally stop giving off light and fall from the sky... The Law and the Prophets is enough... If that isn't enough for the forum residents, we also know that His Laws are written on our hearts... :)
 

BlessedAnomaly

Well-known member
With apocalyptic language, none of us are getting it 100% right... I fall back on what was told to the Rich Man with Lazarus.

Don't they have the Law and the Prophets? There is no need for crazy monstrous beings. There is no for crazy speculation, like tanks... There is no need for stars and the sun to literally stop giving off light and fall from the sky... The Law and the Prophets is enough... If that isn't enough for the forum residents, we also know that His Laws are written on our hearts... :)
Except the Rich Man with Lazarus were talking about getting people saved, not the end of the world.

Also, consider: I agree with no need for crazy monstrous beings. But ... tanks are not crazy monstrous beings. They are something that if a global war broke out would seem plausible. The sun, moon and stars in a place to stop giving light is simply explained by the clouds, mist, smoke and climate damage done by nuclear war (and additionally: possibly volcanic eruptions). Nuclear winter.

One last thing to remember and consider is the difference in eschatologies. Dispensationalism would not have saved (His laws written on our hearts) people in this time frame. So maybe the Preterist needs to have 200 million (or myriads and myriads, whatever that means to you) of HORSES in a time when we simply don't use that many horses for war.
 

Yodas_Prodigy

Well-known member
Except the Rich Man with Lazarus were talking about getting people saved, not the end of the world.

Also, consider: I agree with no need for crazy monstrous beings. But ... tanks are not crazy monstrous beings. They are something that if a global war broke out would seem plausible. The sun, moon and stars in a place to stop giving light is simply explained by the clouds, mist, smoke and climate damage done by nuclear war (and additionally: possibly volcanic eruptions). Nuclear winter.

One last thing to remember and consider is the difference in eschatologies. Dispensationalism would not have saved (His laws written on our hearts) people in this time frame. So maybe the Preterist needs to have 200 million (or myriads and myriads, whatever that means to you) of HORSES in a time when we simply don't use that many horses for war.

Hmmmmmm Isn't the Dispensational Mantra the End of the World (Revelation) man's last chance to get saved?
And where does it say that the 70th week of Daniel is separated from the other 69 weeks? Oh! And who were those Kings, again? :) :) :)
 

BlessedAnomaly

Well-known member
Hmmmmmm Isn't the Dispensational Mantra the End of the World (Revelation) man's last chance to get saved?
And where does it say that the 70th week of Daniel is separated from the other 69 weeks? Oh! And who were those Kings, again? :) :) :)
You're boxing me into a strange box again. Go ahead, read my mind and get it wrong again. 😂

To your point, the Bible is about salvation, so I guess everything is about salvation and there is no longer out of context issues, silly. Ted, take note!

At the Rapture the church is taken away. So unsaved Gentiles, Jews and "all of Israel" remain -- yes, for some to be saved. I give a sausage about the 70th week of Daniel, or Scofield's separation, if that's what you refer to. The tribulation will end. The church is in heaven. She will not return until the New Heaven and Earth. The millennium is for those saved during the trip and "all of Israel."

Kings? Behind three pawns and a bishop, with the queen roaming.
 

BlessedAnomaly

Well-known member
Interesting... When you don't have an answer, you distance yourself... You do that a lot :)
Perhaps that's because you keep trying to box me into someone else's box. Years ago I was WoF in your boxing. Then I'm dispensational -- because WoF are dispensational. Then I'm A, then B, then C....

I haven't moved, YP. I've added to my knowledge. But I haven't budged. I just don't fit your presupposed role and that doesn't sit well with you, so you have to accuse me of things. Go back and read what you have written today. It all presupposes who I am and what I believe. Why? Am I dispensational b/c I mention Hal Lindsey? Am I WoF because I mention Copeland or is it because I come into this forum and argue points against the Calvinistic thought? Look, if you really want to be Yoda's Prodigy, your mind can't be this simple.
 

Mikey1967

Member
At the Rapture the church is taken away. So unsaved Gentiles, Jews and "all of Israel" remain -- yes, for some to be saved. I give a sausage about the 70th week of Daniel, or Scofield's separation, if that's what you refer to. The tribulation will end. The church is in heaven. She will not return until the New Heaven and Earth. The millennium is for those saved during the trip and "all of Israel."
Think on this...The Revelation of Jesus Christ, while creating imagery for us to get a picture of what happens in the end, is largely God fulfilling his promise to Israel. I agree with what Bob wrote above with the exception that I believe that the Church comes back with Jesus in the clouds at Armageddon and rules and reigns with Him for the 1000 years. I also can argue both pre-trib and mid-trib, but lean heavily to mid-trib. I cannot see the Church going through the wrath of God part of the tribulation as the Father never pours His wrath out on the righteous but delivers them...
 

BlessedAnomaly

Well-known member
Think on this...The Revelation of Jesus Christ, while creating imagery for us to get a picture of what happens in the end, is largely God fulfilling his promise to Israel. I agree with what Bob wrote above with the exception that I believe that the Church comes back with Jesus in the clouds at Armageddon and rules and reigns with Him for the 1000 years. I also can argue both pre-trib and mid-trib, but lean heavily to mid-trib. I cannot see the Church going through the wrath of God part of the tribulation as the Father never pours His wrath out on the righteous but delivers them...
Mikey, what would be your scriptural reason to say the Church is coming back to rule in the 1000 years.

Here's what I have--
  1. Rev 19:6-10 is the Wedding Celebration of the Lamb
  2. Rev 19:11- is Jesus coming back for Armageddon
  3. Rev 20:1-6 is the 1000 year reign.
#1 is in heaven, as shown. #2 we do not have any mention of the church. #3 we have in v4 the "souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony about Jesus," i.e., those saved during the Tribulation. If you were not beheaded, verse 5, you did not come back to life until after the 1000 years. This is only those in the earth who reign for the 1000 years. No mention of the Church/Bride.

Then....oh boy! Go forward to chapter 21. A New Heaven and a New Earth descend, with the holy city, the New Jerusalem -- "made ready like a bride adorned for her husband." The Bride!! Further, verse 9-10 --

Revelation 21:9-10
"Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven final plagues came and spoke to me, saying, “Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb!” 10 So he took me away in the Spirit to a huge, majestic mountain and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God. "​
Who did the angel just show John? "The wife of the Lamb!! Where? "Descending out of heaven from God."

So, either the Church is the Bride of Christ, or the holy city, Jerusalem is.

Or, we are seeing the Bride come down from heaven cloaked in the New Jerusalem, to be with Christ forever and ever. Amen.
 

tbeachhead

Well-known member
Mikey, what would be your scriptural reason to say the Church is coming back to rule in the 1000 years.
Here's where I'm inclined to believe it:

Revelation 2: 26And to the one who overcomes and continues in My work until the end, I will give authority over the nations. 27He will rule them with an iron scepter and shatter them like potterya —just as I have received authority from My Father. 28And I will give him the morning star.

29He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

If we're going to be shattering nations, it stands to reason we'll be dealing with the bad guys. And then there's this...

Revelation 3:21To the one who overcomes, I will grant the right to sit with Me on My throne, just as I overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

Paul says we're seated with Christ in heavenly places...present tense.

Here's what I have--
  1. Rev 19:6-10 is the Wedding Celebration of the Lamb
  2. Rev 19:11- is Jesus coming back for Armageddon
  3. Rev 20:1-6 is the 1000 year reign.
#1 is in heaven, as shown. #2 we do not have any mention of the church. #3 we have in v4 the "souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony about Jesus," i.e., those saved during the Tribulation. If you were not beheaded, verse 5, you did not come back to life until after the 1000 years. This is only those in the earth who reign for the 1000 years. No mention of the Church/Bride.

Then....oh boy! Go forward to chapter 21. A New Heaven and a New Earth descend, with the holy city, the New Jerusalem -- "made ready like a bride adorned for her husband." The Bride!! Further, verse 9-10 --

Revelation 21:9-10
"Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven final plagues came and spoke to me, saying, “Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb!” 10 So he took me away in the Spirit to a huge, majestic mountain and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God. "​
Who did the angel just show John? "The wife of the Lamb!! Where? "Descending out of heaven from God."

So, either the Church is the Bride of Christ, or the holy city, Jerusalem is.
Or they're synonymous...

Or, we are seeing the Bride come down from heaven cloaked in the New Jerusalem, to be with Christ forever and ever. Amen.
The city is built of living stones, which stones we are.

Revelation 3:12The one who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will never again leave it. Upon him I will write the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God (the new Jerusalem that comes down out of heaven from My God), and My new name.
 

Mikey1967

Member
Mikey, what would be your scriptural reason to say the Church is coming back to rule in the 1000 years.

Here's what I have--
  1. Rev 19:6-10 is the Wedding Celebration of the Lamb
  2. Rev 19:11- is Jesus coming back for Armageddon
  3. Rev 20:1-6 is the 1000 year reign.
#1 is in heaven, as shown. #2 we do not have any mention of the church. #3 we have in v4 the "souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony about Jesus," i.e., those saved during the Tribulation. If you were not beheaded, verse 5, you did not come back to life until after the 1000 years. This is only those in the earth who reign for the 1000 years. No mention of the Church/Bride.

Then....oh boy! Go forward to chapter 21. A New Heaven and a New Earth descend, with the holy city, the New Jerusalem -- "made ready like a bride adorned for her husband." The Bride!! Further, verse 9-10 --

Revelation 21:9-10
"Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven final plagues came and spoke to me, saying, “Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb!” 10 So he took me away in the Spirit to a huge, majestic mountain and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God. "​
Who did the angel just show John? "The wife of the Lamb!! Where? "Descending out of heaven from God."

So, either the Church is the Bride of Christ, or the holy city, Jerusalem is.

Or, we are seeing the Bride come down from heaven cloaked in the New Jerusalem, to be with Christ forever and ever. Amen.
Because we come back with Him at His return, as I read it. Revelation 19:11-14; 1 Thessalonians 3:13

Then us, plus those who would not take the mark of the beast and were martyred will rule and reign with Him, Revelation 20.

**At work so I have little time to answer...sorry.
 

BlessedAnomaly

Well-known member
Because we come back with Him at His return, as I read it. Revelation 19:11-14; 1 Thessalonians 3:13
You have something to hold onto with Rev 19:14. It takes some defining, but not a stretch, I guess. 1 Thessalonians does not support your claim. I see this as the Rapture.

Then us, plus those who would not take the mark of the beast and were martyred will rule and reign with Him, Revelation 20.
Again, Rev 20 is the 1000 years and says that "those who had been beheaded for their witness...who had not worshiped the beast...and had not received his mark." There is nothing about the church. The church is raptured and out of there before the beast ever shows up. The church is gone, in heaven. So unless you can get them back to the earth on a claim of white linen --

Rev 15:6 -- seven angels who will release the seven plagues are wearing white linen.
Matt 28:3 -- the angel that rolled back the stone was wearing clothing as white as snow.
Daniel 10:5 -- the angel is wearing linen.

I think the army that comes with Jesus is an army of angels. The Bride simply is not mentioned until the New Jerusalem descends.

**At work so I have little time to answer...sorry.
n/p
 

BlessedAnomaly

Well-known member
Here's where I'm inclined to believe it:

Revelation 2: 26And to the one who overcomes and continues in My work until the end, I will give authority over the nations. 27He will rule them with an iron scepter and shatter them like potterya —just as I have received authority from My Father. 28And I will give him the morning star.

29He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

If we're going to be shattering nations, it stands to reason we'll be dealing with the bad guys. And then there's this...

Revelation 3:21To the one who overcomes, I will grant the right to sit with Me on My throne, just as I overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

Paul says we're seated with Christ in heavenly places...present tense.
You need a bad guy? I guess you're implying that there are no bad guys after the 1000 years? I learned this from a friend[1] of mine on these forums (see, I learn things!!):

Revelation 21:9+ after the 1000 year millennium the New Jerusalem descends. There are three gates on each side of the city.

From Revelation 21 --

24 The nations will walk by its light and the kings of the earth will bring their grandeur into it.​

What nations? Are there nations within the city? Nope -- we'll see.

25 Its gates will never be closed during the day (and there will be no night there).​

Why do we need gates (even if they will never close)?

26 They will bring the grandeur and the wealth of the nations into it,​

Ah, the nations are OUTSIDE of the New Jerusalem. And they have grandeur and wealth (maybe they are WoF).

27a but nothing ritually unclean will ever enter into it,​

Double Ah -- so outside the city there exists ritually unclean things. We are so close to the bad guys.

27b nor anyone who does what is detestable or practices falsehood,​

We have the bad guys. They are living AFTER the 1000 years outside of the New Jerusalem. Lo and behold.

27c but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.​

So inside are the people who are written in the Lamb's book. Got it.

We found the bad guys, Pete. After the 1000 years, so we don't need us in the 1000 years to be smashing heads.

[1] my friend and I don't necessarily see eye to eye on all this, mind you.


Or they're synonymous...
Revelation 21 16-18
Now the city is laid out as a square, its length and width the same. He measured the city with the measuring rod at 1,400 miles (its length and width and height are equal). 17 He also measured its wall, 144 cubits according to human measurement, which is also the angel’s. 18 The city’s wall is made of jasper and the city is pure gold, like transparent glass.​

So we are square (in fact cubic). We measure 1,400 miles across, back and high. We are made of jasper and pure gold, like glass.

I really think that the language here is describing a city. A real city. One made with (v19) jasper, sapphire, agate, emerald, onyx, carnelian, chrysolite, beryl, topaz, chrysoprase, jacinth, and amethyst. Not to mention the gold that paves the streets.

And inside this physical city is verse 27c: those whose names are written.... I'll let you finish the sentence.

As an aside, what I do find interesting is: "according to human measurement, which is also the angel’s." Angels are the same size as we are, according to this.

The city is built of living stones, which stones we are.
Not what Revelation 21 says.

Revelation 3:12The one who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will never again leave it. Upon him I will write the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God (the new Jerusalem that comes down out of heaven from My God), and My new name.
Galatians 2:9a "and when James, Cephas, and John, who had a reputation as pillars," So were they pillars of a city? Or were they upstanding in their communities? They were strong, upstanding, authoritative, leaders. Not stone (or flesh) columns.
 

tbeachhead

Well-known member
You need a bad guy? I guess you're implying that there are no bad guys after the 1000 years? I learned this from a friend[1] of mine on these forums (see, I learn things!!):
There is a bad guy at the end of the 1000 years. That's why I say there are two raptures, a spiritual one before the Millennium, and a physical one after. Satan is released to deceive one last time at the end of 1000 years.

Revelation 21:9+ after the 1000 year millennium the New Jerusalem descends.
After satan is permanently put away. The city is part of the new heaven and the new earth. The sky has already been rolled away like a scroll.
There are three gates on each side of the city.

From Revelation 21 --

24 The nations will walk by its light and the kings of the earth will bring their grandeur into it.​

What nations? Are there nations within the city? Nope -- we'll see.
That is a question not to be overlooked. More pertinent: WHO are the nations?
25 Its gates will never be closed during the day (and there will be no night there).​

Why do we need gates (even if they will never close)?
Where else will folks gather? Gates are for gathering as much as for opening and closing.
26 They will bring the grandeur and the wealth of the nations into it,​

Ah, the nations are OUTSIDE of the New Jerusalem. And they have grandeur and wealth (maybe they are WoF).
Yes...amen. Shaunda, etc.

27a but nothing ritually unclean will ever enter into it,​

Double Ah -- so outside the city there exists ritually unclean things. We are so close to the bad guys.
There's a long list of folks who are not in, but out, as in "I never knew you."

27b nor anyone who does what is detestable or practices falsehood,​

We have the bad guys. They are living AFTER the 1000 years outside of the New Jerusalem. Lo and behold.
Those in hell are living...of sorts.

27c but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.​

So inside are the people who are written in the Lamb's book. Got it.

We found the bad guys, Pete. After the 1000 years, so we don't need us in the 1000 years to be smashing heads.
When deception is thrown away, and satan is defeated for the last times...everything is new.

[1] my friend and I don't necessarily see eye to eye on all this, mind you.
I don't know two who see eye to eye that are not parroting Scofield....like Lindsay did.


Revelation 21 16-18
Now the city is laid out as a square, its length and width the same. He measured the city with the measuring rod at 1,400 miles (its length and width and height are equal). 17 He also measured its wall, 144 cubits according to human measurement, which is also the angel’s. 18 The city’s wall is made of jasper and the city is pure gold, like transparent glass.​

So we are square (in fact cubic). We measure 1,400 miles across, back and high. We are made of jasper and pure gold, like glass.

I really think that the language here is describing a city. A real city. One made with (v19) jasper, sapphire, agate, emerald, onyx, carnelian, chrysolite, beryl, topaz, chrysoprase, jacinth, and amethyst. Not to mention the gold that paves the streets.

And inside this physical city is verse 27c: those whose names are written.... I'll let you finish the sentence.
We are living stones...make of that what you will...each is duly fitted. The city is made of living stones, which is why the city and the church and the bride are synonymous.

As an aside, what I do find interesting is: "according to human measurement, which is also the angel’s." Angels are the same size as we are, according to this.
Don't go there Copeland. When angels and men are cross referenced, as they are here, it shreds our doctrine of both. "See that you don't do this...I am a fellow servant with you..." That's an angel.

Not what Revelation 21 says.


Galatians 2:9a "and when James, Cephas, and John, who had a reputation as pillars," So were they pillars of a city? Or were they upstanding in their communities? They were strong, upstanding, authoritative, leaders. Not stone (or flesh) columns.
They are pillars in the church...according to Jesus' own letter to the church.
 
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