WOF and Romans 8:28-30

Yodas_Prodigy

Yodas_Prodigy

Well-known member
Let's look at Paul's comment from Romans 8:

29 For (all) those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And (all) those whom he predestined he also called, and (all) those whom he called he also justified, and (all) those whom he justified he also glorified.

I added the word "all" in front of the word "those". The word "all" is implied by Paul. To imply "some" instead of "all" would be a mess. Though, I have seen some who oppose Calvinism choose "some" and be intellectually dishonest. We sometimes read that passage and miss the weight of what Paul was trying to convey.

So, all that God foreknew were predestined. Foreknowledge is an act of love towards a select bunch of people. Notice how it is tied to the word "predestined"? The predestined are to be conformed to the image of Christ. The golden chain continues with the predestined are called, justified, and glorified.

Clearly, this group is special to YHWH. He went to great lengths to save us... Quite humbling...
 
Yodas_Prodigy said:
Let's look at Paul's comment from Romans 8:

29 For (all) those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And (all) those whom he predestined he also called, and (all) those whom he called he also justified, and (all) those whom he justified he also glorified.

I added the word "all" in front of the word "those". The word "all" is implied by Paul. To imply "some" instead of "all" would be a mess. Though, I have seen some who oppose Calvinism choose "some" and be intellectually dishonest. We sometimes read that passage and miss the weight of what Paul was trying to convey.

So, all that God foreknew were predestined. Foreknowledge is an act of love towards a select bunch of people. Notice how it is tied to the word "predestined"? The predestined are to be conformed to the image of Christ. The golden chain continues with the predestined are called, justified, and glorified.

Clearly, this group is special to YHWH. He went to great lengths to save us... Quite humbling...
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The foreknown are those who are known to libertarianly believe, the elect. God loves them. Go predestined them to be conformed to the image of His Son. God goes to great lengths for them.
 
Tallen said:
What do you mean by libertarianly believe? Can you explain a little? Thanks.
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Libertarian in theology means nonpredetermined.

The elect are foreknown to believe on their own, that is the belief itself is not unconditionally chosen by God beforehand. But the blessing as a result is predetemined.
 
Kampioen said:
Libertarian in theology means nonpredetermined.

The elect are foreknown to believe on their own, that is the belief itself is not unconditionally chosen by God beforehand. But the blessing as a result is predetemined.
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Well, my OP answered you before you posted this. Try replacing any one or two of the "all"s with "some" and see what you get.

Let's not overlook John 6:44, No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
 
Yodas_Prodigy said:
Well, my OP answered you before you posted this. Try replacing any one or two of the "all"s with "some" and see what you get.

Let's not overlook John 6:44, No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
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I don't see that putting "all" in Rom 8:29 changes anything.

My take on John 6:44 is the Father draws and gives certain people to the Son for raising in the resurrection. But the criteria of how the Father draws is not given. But a few verses earlier the criteria is give ... The ones who believe in the Son are given to the Son by the Father. But then I say believing is libertarian. ...

John 6:44 (KJV) No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:40 (KJV) And this is the will of him that sent me, that *every one which seeth the Son*, and *believeth* on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
 
Kampioen said:
I don't see that putting "all" in Rom 8:29 changes anything.

My take on John 6:44 is the Father draws and gives certain people to the Son for raising in the resurrection. But the criteria of how the Father draws is not given. But a few verses earlier the criteria is give ... The ones who believe in the Son are given to the Son by the Father. But then I say believing is libertarian. ...

John 6:44 (KJV) No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:40 (KJV) And this is the will of him that sent me, that *every one which seeth the Son*, and *believeth* on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
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It does matter. Foreknowledge is an act of love for those who are predestined. God only foreknew those who are predestined. So, all he foreknew he predestined... But what you are leaving out is that all who are foreknown are also conformed to the image of his Son, called, justified, and glorified. Both of us will agree that not everyone is going to be conformed to the image of his Son, called, justified, and glorified.

So, God is not electing someone based upon their choice, but His instead...

The word draw in John 6:44 used here is the same Greek word used in James where people were dragged into court.
 
Yodas_Prodigy said:
It does matter. Foreknowledge is an act of love for those who are predestined. God only foreknew those who are predestined. So, all he foreknew he predestined... But what you are leaving out is that all who are foreknown are also conformed to the image of his Son, called, justified, and glorified. Both of us will agree that not everyone is going to be conformed to the image of his Son, called, justified, and glorified.

So, God is not electing someone based upon their choice, but His instead...

The word draw in John 6:44 used here is the same Greek word used in James where people were dragged into court.
Click to expand...

I see foreknowledge in Romans 8:29 as a foreknowledge of who would libertarianly believe. But the love was reflected in conforming them to the image of His Son.
 
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