wof and Romans 8:38-39

Yodas_Prodigy said:
Nothing in here disproves election... If I preach the Gospel and an elected person hears me, they will believe...
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I never said anything about disproving election. I just don't believe (nor does the bible show) that God pre-chooses, individually, who will be saved and who will not across the board. God chooses. You have free will to respond. I have said here that I believe there are those who God has chosen and they will do his will -- Paul and Jacob would be examples. There are those who God has chosen to reject. Judas, Pharaoh and Esau would be examples. Israel (not to be confused with the Church) will be saved. They are elect outside of free will.

If you were pre-chosen to be saved, why would you have to grafted into a tree? You are already elect. How can elect natural to the tree be broken off? And what does that say of Justice? People condemned for not doing anything wrong? And the Love -- for God so loved the world that Jesus went to the cross and took your sins, and yours, and yours, and yours; but not yours and not yours!! No love for the 'nots'. Yeah, unconditional.

Yodas_Prodigy said:
BTW, God elects based upon his choice not ours... If God elects us based upon our decision, that really isn't election...
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God chooses based upon his choice. He gave us free will to then accept the offer. And if we accept, then we are part of the elect. Before creation God said that he would save his elect: those who accepted the offering of Jesus; those who, as scripture dictates, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. And scripture clearly says, if you choose not to believe, then you are condemned.
 
BlessedAnomaly said:
God chooses based upon his choice. He gave us free will to then accept the offer. And if we accept, then we are part of the elect. Before creation God said that he would save his elect: those who accepted the offering of Jesus; those who, as scripture dictates, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. And scripture clearly says, if you choose not to believe, then you are condemned.
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Your theory has a gaping hole in it. Based on your opinion and Paul's words quoted below, no one would get saved:

9 What then? Are we better off? Certainly not, for we have already charged that Jews and Greeks alike are all under sin,
10 just as it is written:

“There is no one righteous, not even one,
11 there is no one who understands,
there is no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away,
together they have become worthless;
there is no one who shows kindness, not even one.”
13 “Their throats are open graves,
they deceive with their tongues,
the poison of asps is under their lips.”
14 “Their mouths are[q] full of cursing and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood,
16 ruin and misery are in their paths,
17 and the way of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
 
Yodas_Prodigy said:
Your theory has a gaping hole in it. Based on your opinion and Paul's words quoted below, no one would get saved:

9 What then? Are we better off? Certainly not, for we have already charged that Jews and Greeks alike are all under sin,
10 just as it is written:

“There is no one righteous, not even one,
11 there is no one who understands,
there is no one who seeks God.
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No one seeks God. God must call.

But once God calls, you have been given a measure of faith, and what you do with that faith is in the realm of your free will. (Unless God has predispositioned you to believe (no free will), or predispositioned you not to believe (no calling)).

We are not righteous. We cannot prove ourselves. v20 says "For no one is declared righteous before him by the works of the law, for through the law comes the knowledge of sin." No one can show themselves worthy. Either God calls or he doesn't. This is not based on your proven worth, but on his Grace. To those whom God calls, you must believe upon the Lord Jesus Christ as your Savior -- for you cannot save yourself, you cannot prove worthy, you simply must accept the fact that only Jesus can save you, and this not of yourself.

God calls. You accept.
 
Yodas_Prodigy said:
I await Bob's answer. I am interested and wonder, does his view include God making the offer to all people or some people?
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Whomever God desires to call.

Each called must then respond by believing in the Lord Jesus Christ. No, not all will. Those he doesn't call do not have this option.
 
Tallen said:
No, but you did say He doesn't choose individuals..., and then explain Him choosing individuals by predertermination through His calling.
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Show me where you are getting that first part.

I said: " I just don't believe (nor does the bible show) that God pre-chooses, individually, who will be saved and who will not across the board. God chooses. You have free will to respond." What this says is that God did not, for every individual, say "Ted, you're in. Joe, you're in. Sam Kinison, you're out," before the creation of the earth.

I did say, many times in CARM, that God has predisposed certain individuals: Pharaoh, Judas, Moses, etc. God does not predispose ALL individuals.

So there are (at least) three categories: you are chosen and determined to be elect (no free will in the matter); you are chosen, but you must believe in the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation (free will); you are not chosen, you implicitly are non-elect (your free will will never choose a righteous path).
 
BlessedAnomaly said:
I said: " I just don't believe (nor does the bible show) that God pre-chooses, individually, who will be saved and who will not across the board. God chooses. You have free will to respond." What this says is that God did not, for every individual, say "Ted, you're in. Joe, you're in. Sam Kinison, you're out," before the creation of the earth.
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Could you explain this passage in light of your opinion above:

3 Blessed is the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms in Christ. 4 For he chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and blameless before him in love. 5 He did this by predestining us to adoption as his legal heirs through Jesus Christ, according to the pleasure[l] of his will—

I'll give my understanding of this passage. First, Paul is speaking to and about believers, not unbelievers.
  • God blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms in Christ
  • He Chose us in Christ before the foundation of the World. Chose when? Before the foundation of the World.
  • He predestined us to adoption. Predestined means our destination was already chosen before we were born.
  • This was done according to His good pleasure. And of course, this means of His free will
I'll also add a couple of things. Man's will is guided by his fallen nature. He has no desire to serve YHWH. It takes an act of God to bring us to him. When our will challenges God's will, God wins.

One last thing. People like you who believe in your version of Free Will, why do you pray for people to be saved? According to your theology, God has done everything necessary for their salvation or they are not elect.
 
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Yodas_Prodigy said:
Could you explain this passage in light of your opinion above:
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Sure.

Yodas_Prodigy said:
3 Blessed is the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms in Christ. 4 For he chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and blameless before him in love. 5 He did this by predestining us to adoption as his legal heirs through Jesus Christ, according to the pleasure[l] of his will—

I'll give my understanding of this passage. First, Paul is speaking to and about believers, not unbelievers.
  • God blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms in Christ
  • He Chose us in Christ before the foundation of the World. Chose when? Before the foundation of the World.
  • He predestined us to adoption. Predestined means our destination was already chosen before we were born.
  • This was done according to His good pleasure. And of course, this means of His free will
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I agree.

We differ, perhaps, where you use "us" as Joe and Bob; I use "us" as Christians. Corporately. The individual Joe's and Bob's (and ok, Ted's and Pete's) are to be determined by what scripture says in other places: God calls and we accept and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.


Ephesians 1:22-23​
And God put all things under Christ’s feet, and gave him to the church as head over all things. 23 Now the church is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.​

The church -- corporately.

It's kind of like the Calvinist: "For God so loved the world that he gave His only begotten son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) To the Calvinist, this speaks only to the elect. But no, this is not a predefined elect who are loved and who believe, but rather, as like in Acts 16, it is whoever "believe upon the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved." Thus the saved are the elect.

Yodas_Prodigy said:
I'll also add a couple of things. Man's will is guided by his fallen nature. He has no desire to serve YHWH. It takes an act of God to bring us to him. When our will challenges God's will, God wins.
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This is true. And the "act of God" is to call us and to give us a measure of faith to respond. He doesn't force the issue, but he gets us to a point where we can make a free will decision.

Yodas_Prodigy said:
One last thing. People like you who believe in your version of Free Will, why do you pray for people to be saved? According to your theology, God has done everything necessary for their salvation or they are not elect.
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Why are asking me questions if you have "my theology" down pat (according to your theology)? :LOL:

God calls. Who will he call? I don't know. Can my prayer become something that he answers in this regard? Perhaps. But ultimately, God calls and my prayer might bring influence to the person to receive. Perhaps my prayer requests God of remove even more issues so the person can "see straight." I don't know.

Psalm 6:9​
The Lord has heard my appeal for mercy; the Lord has accepted my prayer.​
​
Psalm 66:20​
God deserves praise, for he did not reject my prayer or abandon his love for me.​

There are other verses that say, as 66:20 above alludes to, that God sometimes will not hear your prayer, or that he won't act on what you ask for.

You see, God has not "done everything necessary" for these are things that he has held for our relationship with him. He will call.
 
BlessedAnomaly said:
Sure.


I agree.

We differ, perhaps, where you use "us" as Joe and Bob; I use "us" as Christians. Corporately. The individual Joe's and Bob's (and ok, Ted's and Pete's) are to be determined by what scripture says in other places: God calls and we accept and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

​
Ephesians 1:22-23​
And God put all things under Christ’s feet, and gave him to the church as head over all things. 23 Now the church is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.​

The church -- corporately.

It's kind of like the Calvinist: "For God so loved the world that he gave His only begotten son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) To the Calvinist, this speaks only to the elect. But no, this is not a predefined elect who are loved and who believe, but rather, as like in Acts 16, it is whoever "believe upon the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved." Thus the saved are the elect.


This is true. And the "act of God" is to call us and to give us a measure of faith to respond. He doesn't force the issue, but he gets us to a point where we can make a free will decision.


Why are asking me questions if you have "my theology" down pat (according to your theology)? :LOL:

God calls. Who will he call? I don't know. Can my prayer become something that he answers in this regard? Perhaps. But ultimately, God calls and my prayer might bring influence to the person to receive. Perhaps my prayer requests God of remove even more issues so the person can "see straight." I don't know.
​
Psalm 6:9​
The Lord has heard my appeal for mercy; the Lord has accepted my prayer.​
​
Psalm 66:20​
God deserves praise, for he did not reject my prayer or abandon his love for me.​

There are other verses that say, as 66:20 above alludes to, that God sometimes will not hear your prayer, or that he won't act on what you ask for.

You see, God has not "done everything necessary" for these are things that he has held for our relationship with him. He will call.
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It seems that your theology is far more unfair that Calvinism (from a human perspective). In Calvinism, either you are called and will eventually get saved or you are not chosen. Your view has very few chosen without a free will who get saved. Then you have an unknown swathe who are called who still have to overcome their lives, unbelief, and sin nature by using some nominal level of faith to get saved. Then there must be a huge swathe of people who are not called...
 
Lots of suppositions here ;)

Yodas_Prodigy said:
It seems that your theology is far more unfair that Calvinism (from a human perspective). In Calvinism, either you are called and will eventually get saved or you are not chosen.
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Although the "eventually get saved" part is a given if you are 5 part Calvinism. The chosen-elect and/or not-chosen-not-elect part of Calvinism lacks true justice. One is punished because they were not chosen by God. Or one is punished because they are sinners and incapable of righteousness, hallmarks of how they were designed and created, not because they really had a say/action in this.

Yodas_Prodigy said:
Your view has very few chosen without a free will who get saved.
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I'm not sure I follow you here. Where did I say that some are chosen and not given a measure of faith to decide freely with?

God chooses. Those he chooses are given a measure of faith to move within their free will. Some, like perhaps Moses, have a roll to play in God's plan and thus might fall into the Calvinistic "Irresistible Grace" theory. So ultimately they choose yes regardless.

Yodas_Prodigy said:
Then you have an unknown swathe who are called who still have to overcome their lives, unbelief, and sin nature by using some nominal level of faith to get saved.
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What if God gave them faith such that all of them came to salvation? Did I say how many succeed? Fail? Your suppositions look to defeat what you read regardless of what was actually said.

BTW:

Matthew 7:14​
Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.​

It looks like it will be "few" anyway. God said so.

Galatians 1:6​
I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel,​

And it seems that some who are called can turn away and follow another gospel.

Yodas_Prodigy said:
Then there must be a huge swathe of people who are not called...
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Huge? Why?

What if the "not called" are people like Pharaoh and Judas. Just the named people God needed to fulfill his plan. Then there would be a small group that are "called and didn't accept," a group that can be judged that much more for their decision.
 
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