WoF, Mountains and Kings

BlessedAnomaly

Active member
Except that Protestant Amillennialism is Historist theology and sees the Pope as the Antichrist. Not like your wofist Arminian brother who embraces the Pope and talks in Italian sounding tongues to impress him. 😮
Does the Pope know that he is the Antichrist?
 

Slyzr

Well-known member
9 “Here is the mind which has wisdom: The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits. 10 There are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come. And when he comes, he must continue a short time. 11 The beast that was, and is not, is himself also the eighth, and is of the seven, and is going to [f]perdition.

Where are the mountains and who are the Kings??

I don't think it's Copeland...

here are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come. And when he comes, he must continue a short time. 11 The beast that was, and is not, is himself also the eighth, and is of the seven, and is going to [f]perdition.

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, [31/2, 3 1/2], 8



NASB

24"Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy [place]. 25"So you are to know and discern [that] from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince [there will be] seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress. 26"Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end [will come] with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined. 27"And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations [will come] one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate."


..
 

tbeachhead

Well-known member
Do a bit of research, Joe. We can't do everything for you.

View attachment 2266


BTW: your title says WoF...not preterist, not amillennialist, not... So Hal fits perfectly with your question.
Hal was WoF?

That book, and Satan Is Alive and Well on Planet Earth were two of my first and favorite books, as I started to learn Christianity around 1970. They fired up my imagination long before the Bible got ahold of it.

I also read Merrill Unger's Bible encyclopedia cover to cover, and learned everything about cessationism and dispensationalism before I even knew it was a thing...and one of the strongest historic errors of the "orthodox" church, a sine qua non of the cessationist "christianity" of Justin Peters' ilk.
 

tbeachhead

Well-known member
From Wikipedia, "The Late Great Planet Earth":

Although Lindsey did not claim to know the dates of future events with any certainty, he suggested that Matthew 24:32-34 indicated that Jesus' return might be within "one generation" of the rebirth of the state of Israel, and the rebuilding of the Jewish Temple, and Lindsey asserted that "in the Bible" one generation is forty years. Some readers accepted this as an indication that the Tribulation or the Rapture would occur no later than 1988. In his 1980 work The 1980s: Countdown to Armageddon, Lindsey predicted that "the decade of the 1980s could very well be the last decade of history as we know it".​

When you look at the successors to Reagan, until Trump, each was more conniving than the one before, it's clear the eighties was the beginning of the march to an antichrist government. Trump was the most dangerous dangerous to the deadly foundation laid down than any Demublican or Republicrat elected before him. He destroyed the Hegelian dialectic with common sense.

Clearly, Lindsey did not claim to know dates. To take "some readers accepted" as fact that he taught dates is a stretch. And while I would agree with anyone who would say that "could very well be" is not a good phrase, and that it is quite leading, it is not date calling.

I got saved in 1984. I was drawn to eschatology immediately (it was extreme and interesting and reading about faith was boring back then) and so Lindsey, of course, caught my eye. I certainly would have grasp upon any date setting -- either to hyper-focus on it or to hyper-dismiss it depending upon the year (I matured a little by the late 80's after I got married). (Just a little though.)

So, instead of giving me articles that say he said 1988, give me his words, his books, his TV programs. Otherwise they are nothing but strawmen.

Again, I'm not a big fan of Lindsey any longer. I lost sight of him in the early 90's. There is one thing to say "he said generation," "generation to him was 40 years," "he changed generation to sixty to eighty years." Hmm. Never changed your view after you learned something else? No? Me neither. Double pfffft.

So, there may be one date given to Christianity Today of "before 2000." In a 50 year career. Yeah, he's a date setter.
I'm thinking the gun was loaded when HW was VP...and the trigger got pulled at his election. Every president to Trump took a downward turn to what we're seeing today. Whoever is in Biden's shirt has put the "progressive" on steroids.
 

BlessedAnomaly

Active member
Hal was WoF?
Yes. If you ever saw him on TBN while NOT talking about eschatology, you'd know. Although nowhere as expressive as Benny.

That book, and Satan Is Alive and Well on Planet Earth were two of my first and favorite books, as I started to learn Christianity around 1970. They fired up my imagination long before the Bible got ahold of it.
As it did for an entire generation, much to YP's chagrin.

I also read Merrill Unger's Bible encyclopedia cover to cover, and learned everything about cessationism and dispensationalism before I even knew it was a thing...and one of the strongest historic errors of the "orthodox" church, a sine qua non of the cessationist "christianity" of Justin Peters' ilk.
I think I owned a book on Calvin very early in my Christian years. Most boring book I ever owned. Probably established my course quite solidly.
 

tbeachhead

Well-known member
Yes. If you ever saw him on TBN while NOT talking about eschatology, you'd know. Although nowhere as expressive as Benny.
I actually never saw him. Never had TBN and never watched it...I might have seen him if he was a guest on the 700 Club, because I had CBN from 1978, but I don't remember. I also had given to me the Clarence Larkin classic, The Greatest Book on Dispensational Truth in the World, replete with illustrations. It was massive and fun...and had a whole chapter on the pyramids of Egypt. Great stuff. It proved to me that dispensationalism had its limits as well...and the Scofield was clueless.
As it did for an entire generation, much to YP's chagrin.


I think I owned a book on Calvin very early in my Christian years. Most boring book I ever owned. Probably established my course quite solidly.
I tried to read Calvin's Instituts in the original...kept falling asleep. I liked Kenyon's ABC's much better, but he put me to sleep as well.
 

BlessedAnomaly

Active member
I actually never saw him. Never had TBN and never watched it...I might have seen him if he was a guest on the 700 Club, because I had CBN from 1978, but I don't remember
I was on the 700 Club once. Well, my wife and I were one of three stories in the introduction/promotional video that introduced our pastor who claimed to have helped 23 people in the church become Millionaires God's Way. Incidentally, my wife and I were supposed to have been one of them. We weren't. Neither were 21 of the other 22 -- and the one that was a millionaire achieved that long before he met our pastor. But then it was Word of Faith, so the rest of us were all just positive confession, I guess. My wife was quite upset, because he sat with Pat Robertson taking credit for the idea behind her home business.
 

tbeachhead

Well-known member
I was on the 700 Club once. Well, my wife and I were one of three stories in the introduction/promotional video that introduced our pastor who claimed to have helped 23 people in the church become Millionaires God's Way. Incidentally, my wife and I were supposed to have been one of them. We weren't. Neither were 21 of the other 22 -- and the one that was a millionaire achieved that long before he met our pastor. But then it was Word of Faith, so the rest of us were all just positive confession, I guess. My wife was quite upset, because he sat with Pat Robertson taking credit for the idea behind her home business.
They spent a lot of time hyping people. Not a great investment. Pat's teaching was a highlight of the program for me. And I could encounter Corrie Ten Boom and David Duplessis before they passed on. His hermeneutics are Traina trained inductive study, and that worked for me.

I was a phone counselor for him when he had a word of knowledge that a child had been born without an optic nerve, and that God was doing a creative miracle. He instructed the parents to go with a flashlight into the nursery where the baby was sleeping, and check for responses. I got that phone call from the mom. She was hysterical. The baby started crying for the first time when the light was shone into his eyes.

Sealed the deal for me. I'm a witness. Now I know there really is much more to learn.
 

BlessedAnomaly

Active member
They spent a lot of time hyping people. Not a great investment.
Oh the expense. They sent a small film crew to my house (well, to three sets of people in the church). Quite the production. for maybe a minute of footage (each). And then an episode of lies. Plus, who knows how many DVD sets our Pastor sold from that.

I was a phone counselor for him when he had a word of knowledge that a child had been born without an optic nerve, and that God was doing a creative miracle. He instructed the parents to go with a flashlight into the nursery where the baby was sleeping, and check for responses. I got that phone call from the mom. She was hysterical. The baby started crying for the first time when the light was shone into his eyes.

Sealed the deal for me. I'm a witness. Now I know there really is much more to learn.
The saved me does reply honestly: amen!!

The skeptic me adds: I wonder how many parents ran to their child with a flashlight and had....nothing. I also wonder how many kids were born blind and "suddenly" (miraculously) without Pat, without a pastor, without a church, without religion at all, have sight returned to them. I only ask because I know first hand of a healing happening and not being able to convince the couple that it was a work of God in their godless life. I went fishing, but caught nothing.

Then the saved me rises up and screams louder: amen!!!
 

tbeachhead

Well-known member
Oh the expense. They sent a small film crew to my house (well, to three sets of people in the church). Quite the production. for maybe a minute of footage (each). And then an episode of lies. Plus, who knows how many DVD sets our Pastor sold from that.
My roommate was a producer who was sent to document claims made on the 700 club. He was as angry at WoF claims as anyone I'd met, until the fleas all died in 24 hours after my friend and I prayed. Then he'd listen to my ideas and we had great discussions.

The saved me does reply honestly: amen!!
I get this....

The skeptic me adds: I wonder how many parents ran to their child with a flashlight and had....nothing. I also wonder how many kids were born blind and "suddenly" (miraculously) without Pat, without a pastor, without a church, without religion at all, have sight returned to them. I only ask because I know first hand of a healing happening and not being able to convince the couple that it was a work of God in their godless life. I went fishing, but caught nothing.
The skeptic me says, "I wonder how many women with issues of blood stayed at home saying, "If Jesus wanted my blood to stop flowing, he'd come to my door."

Or..."Then there was Blind Bar Timideus, who cried out, but was silenced by the crowd as Jesus passed by." You never heard of either of these, but you can bet, as there were lepers in Israel in the days of Elijah, these were in Israel in the days of Jesus

Then the saved me rises up and screams louder: amen!!!
But I really like Blind Bar Timideus.
 
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BlessedAnomaly

Active member
The skeptic me says, "I wonder how many women with issues of blood stayed at home saying, "If Jesus wanted my blood to stop flowing, he'd come to my door."
Except, my example showed faith in action. Yours shows no faith.

Or..."Then there was Blind Bar Timideus, who cried out, but was silenced by the crowd as Jesus passed by." You never heard of either of these, but you can bet, as there were lepers in Israel in the days of Elijah, these were in Israel in the days of Jesus


But I really like Blind Bar Timideus.
But Jesus knew....and he chose to neglect those who he designed to be timid. You really, really need to think about why Blind Bar Timideus would shut up: he was designed that way.

But Blind Bartimaeus didn't shut up. Why? He was designed that way.
 

tbeachhead

Well-known member
Except, my example showed faith in action. Yours shows no faith.
How dare you say this? Are you saying the cessationist has no faith? Mine illustrated the cessationist's "gospel" in inaction, and the testimonies in the Bible they have overlooked. It was Jesus who spoke of the plethora of lepers in Israel, but only Naaman of Syria had the requisite faith...thanks to the astute counsel of his aids.
But Jesus knew....and he chose to neglect those who he designed to be timid. You really, really need to think about why Blind Bar Timideus would shut up: he was designed that way.
We're all designed to make a choice, to believe, to be bold, to reach out...or not. When I read Paul's exhortations, each one reads like an...wait...what's the word? Oh. Exhortation. I believe I can actually do what Paul tells me to do, by a determination to respond with intention.
But Blind Bartimaeus didn't shut up. Why? He was designed that way.
His faith...and no one else's...made him well.
 

BlessedAnomaly

Active member
How dare you say this? Are you saying the cessationist has no faith?
Just your examples, Pete. You have a woman who won't leave home; you have a man who won't shout if confronted. These examples showed no faith. They show fear and acquiescence. These two examples are all I was talking about.

But since you bring up the cessationist. It is one thing to rant against the power of the Holy Spirit in the areas of healing and prophecy. They lose out on many benefits.

But to then take the charismatic, as Peters does, and claim that they are in a false gospel, that they are lost, that this belief is evil. Well, I've see such a thing in the scripture....

Matthew 12:20-32
22 Then they brought to him a demon-possessed man who was blind and mute. Jesus healed him​
24 But when the Pharisees heard this they said, “He does not cast out demons except by the power of Beelzebul, the ruler of demons!”​
30 Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters. 31 For this reason I tell you, people will be forgiven for every sin and blasphemy, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32 Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven. But whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.​
Now, I'm a believer that Benny Hinn is an idiot. I believe that some/many/who-knows of his "healings" were showmanship, and few, if any, actually got healed. So I'm not saying that the ilk of Hinn are to be trusted or liked or believed. But I also believe that the spiritual gifts are still active and in use today.

So if one doesn't believe in them, then that's ok, they'll just not have as full a spiritual life here on earth. But when they assign it to the devil, as the Pharisees did, then they are walking a very thin line, IMHO.

Mine illustrated the cessationist's "gospel" in inaction, and the testimonies in the Bible they have overlooked. It was Jesus who spoke of the plethora of lepers in Israel, but only Naaman of Syria had the requisite faith...thanks to the astute counsel of his aids.
So, I think that we are saying similar things. I didn't apply "examples" to your entire answer.

We're all designed to make a choice, to believe, to be bold, to reach out...or not.
No. There are some human creatures who simply could not be bold (on their own, as created, without God changing their soul) if all the chocolate in the world were at stake. Sorry. I know many personally. They can't even go up to the counter and ask for a bottle of hot sauce that a restaurant supplies for free but forgot to put on their tray (oops, did I mention a specific person or two), and you think they will rise up against a demon in prayer?

No. Some are made bold. Some are made to follow. Some are made weak and will be infused with power (that they were not created with) to do bold and glorious works.

When I read Paul's exhortations, each one reads like an...wait...what's the word? Oh. Exhortation. I believe I can actually do what Paul tells me to do, by a determination to respond with intention.
You, sure. My sister in law? My niece? Fourteen people I used to work with that I can think of off the top of my head in fifteen seconds? No chance in God's green earth.

His faith...and no one else's...made him well.
His faith got him an invite before Jesus. Jesus...and no one else...made him well.
 

tbeachhead

Well-known member
Just your examples, Pete. You have a woman who won't leave home; you have a man who won't shout if confronted. These examples showed no faith. They show fear and acquiescence. These two examples are all I was talking about.

So...Yes. When you're saying "These examples showed NO faith." You're saying the cessationist has no faith. These examples show the futile nature of the faith taught in a church with an inscrutable god whose promises hold no weight, therefore, who lies, and who believes if god wanted to heal he'd do it, but he is not moved by prayer.

But since you bring up the cessationist. It is one thing to rant against the power of the Holy Spirit in the areas of healing and prophecy. They lose out on many benefits.
Like those that come by faith.

But to then take the charismatic, as Peters does, and claim that they are in a false gospel, that they are lost, that this belief is evil. Well, I've see such a thing in the scripture....

Matthew 12:20-32
22 Then they brought to him a demon-possessed man who was blind and mute. Jesus healed him​
24 But when the Pharisees heard this they said, “He does not cast out demons except by the power of Beelzebul, the ruler of demons!”​
30 Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters. 31 For this reason I tell you, people will be forgiven for every sin and blasphemy, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32 Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven. But whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.​
Now, I'm a believer that Benny Hinn is an idiot. I believe that some/many/who-knows of his "healings" were showmanship, and few, if any, actually got healed. So I'm not saying that the ilk of Hinn are to be trusted or liked or believed. But I also believe that the spiritual gifts are still active and in use today.
And Hinn went to Turkey, to Istanbul, and preached, and my friend Andrew Brunson testifies that hundreds whom he knows personally, have held onto their confession, and grown in the faith by faithful disciplers. Andrew's eyewitness account. Paul pointed this out: Those who preached Christ by envy still preached Christ. The converts are not judged by the one who brought the Word. The ones who preached and did miracles in His Name were never known by Him, despite their teaching and the real nature of the miracles done in His name.

So if one doesn't believe in them, then that's ok, they'll just not have as full a spiritual life here on earth. But when they assign it to the devil, as the Pharisees did, then they are walking a very thin line, IMHO.
Those who walk are not as liable as those who talk...and those who merely talk are not even closely as responsible as those who TEACH. I do not want to see what happens to a MacArthur or a Peters who have opposed the Word of God and cast aspersions of manifestations of the Holy Spirit.

Hanegraaf said something so blasphemous in his Charismatic Chaos, I could never bring myself to repeat it.

So, I think that we are saying similar things. I didn't apply "examples" to your entire answer.
No. There are some human creatures who simply could not be bold (on their own, as created, without God changing their soul) if all the chocolate in the world were at stake. Sorry. I know many personally. They can't even go up to the counter and ask for a bottle of hot sauce that a restaurant supplies for free but forgot to put on their tray (oops, did I mention a specific person or two), and you think they will rise up against a demon in prayer?
This made me chuckle.

When I went to CBN, we were made to take a battery of psychological exams to see where we stood between extrovert being 10 and introvert being 1. I was a 2. That's not what got me in jail...being an introvert. I actually got surrounded into a debate in a rug shop in the souk of Fee...with three members of the brotherhood, unbeknownst to me.

No. Some are made bold. Some are made to follow. Some are made weak and will be infused with power (that they were not created with) to do bold and glorious works.
"Some are born great. Some achieve greatness. Some have greatness THRUST upon them." Malvolio--Shakespeare's Twelfth Night.

It just came back to me.
You, sure. My sister in law? My niece? Fourteen people I used to work with that I can think of off the top of my head in fifteen seconds? No chance in God's green earth.
I couldn't say...and never would. My wife is doing things today I would never have foreseen, including working up the local Christian School's first Christmas concert in two years from scratch...in a matter of weeks. That used to be me, but I just substitute teach.

His faith got him an invite before Jesus. Jesus...and no one else...made him well.
Yeah...but you are going to need to convince Jesus, not me, because Jesus told him otherwise. "Your faith has made you well."

Not the only one He said it to, either.
 

tbeachhead

Well-known member
Hal Lindsey is a false teacher and adulterer, he's on wife #4 last I checked
Please tell me why I want to know this? I'm grateful for two books he wrote in the seventies...that brought me into a lifetime of Bible study without any further help from Hal.

Why do Christians delight in spreading gossip and calumny? I do not get it.
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
9 “Here is the mind which has wisdom: The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits. 10 There are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come. And when he comes, he must continue a short time. 11 The beast that was, and is not, is himself also the eighth, and is of the seven, and is going to [f]perdition.

Where are the mountains and who are the Kings??

I don't think it's Copeland...
(Jerusalem) Is The Whore, Mystery Babylon The Great.

The Levitical High Priest Dressing represents "The Woman", that is dressed in purple, scarlet, gold, and precious stones as seen below

(Revelation) 17:4KJV
4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

Yes "The Woman", The Levitical High Priest, Dressed In Purple, Scarlet, Gold, And Precious Stones

(Exodus) 28:15-20KJV
15 And thou shalt make the breastplate of judgment with cunning work; after the work of the ephod thou shalt make it; of gold, of blue, and of purple, and of scarlet, and of fine twined linen, shalt thou make it.
16 Foursquare it shall be being doubled; a span shall be the length thereof, and a span shall be the breadth thereof.
17 And thou shalt set in it settings of stones, even four rows of stones: the first row shall be a sardius, a topaz, and a carbuncle: this shall be the first row.
18 And the second row shall be an emerald, a sapphire, and a diamond.
19 And the third row a ligure, an agate, and an amethyst.
20 And the fourth row a beryl, and an onyx, and a jasper: they shall be set in gold in their inclosings.

(Jerusalem) is the seven hilled city, where the woman sits, not Rome as many falsely claim.

(Revelation) 17:9KJV
9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

List of cities claimed to be built on seven hills - Wikipedia
Jerusalem, Israel: Jerusalem's seven hills are Mount Scopus, Mount Olivet and the Mount of Corruption (all three are peaks in a mountain ridge that lies east of the Old City), Mount Ophel, the original Mount Zion, the New Mount Zion and the hill on which the Antonia Fortress was built.

The Roman Empire didnt exist to be guilty of the Prophets blood seen below, Jerusalem did.

(Revelation) 18:24KJV
24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

(Matthew) 23:29-37KJV
29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
 
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