"works do not precede salvation"?

dberrie2020

Super Member
and once again, you don't understand the relationship between faith and works. works do not precede salvation (Eph. 2:8-10) but FOLLOW as a result of salvation.

Could you explain for us why the Blood of Christ isn't needed for salvation to occur?

1 John 1:7---King James Version
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Your works as a believer will determine your reward, not your salvation (as a Christian understands it).

There is quite the difference between your claim--and the testimony of Jesus Christ:

John 5:28-29--King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
 
Could you explain for us why the Blood of Christ isn't needed for salvation to occur?

1 John 1:7---King James Version
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.



There is quite the difference between your claim--and the testimony of Jesus Christ:

John 5:28-29--King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Been over it numerous times before, dberrie. You simply don't understand scripture because your Mormon doctrine can't allow you to see what scripture actually says and means. The blood of Jesus cleanses all believers of sin by faith alone. No one has said it wasn't needed. You get that when you become a believer. and you greatly misunderstand what happens at the resurrections (yes plural). Bless is he who is part of the first resurrection. The second is at the Great White Throne judgement-- exactly where you Mormons believe you will be. The consequences of being there are a permanent trip to the lake of fire.

When a believer dies, they are immediately ushered into the presence of Jesus and receive rewards for what has been done. That is what the story of works of hay, wood and stubble mean. Works not done in faith are worthless and will be discounted. Only those Holy Spirit enables will count. Crowns will be given. That is the first resurrection.

The second is bad news for anyone in that camp for they will be judged out of the "books". There are two sets of books. The Book of Life and the "books" of works a person has done who is not in the Book of Life. You will notice-- and Ralp clearly didn't understand it and thought he had a championed moment-- the people at the Great White Throne are judged out of the books, not the book of Life. Read it. It is there.

The John passage you quoted speaks of two resurrections. Figure it out.
 
Been over it numerous times before, dberrie. You simply don't understand scripture because your Mormon doctrine can't allow you to see what scripture actually says and means. The blood of Jesus cleanses all believers of sin by faith alone. No one has said it wasn't needed. You get that when you become a believer. and you greatly misunderstand what happens at the resurrections (yes plural). Bless is he who is part of the first resurrection. The second is at the Great White Throne judgement-- exactly where you Mormons believe you will be. The consequences of being there are a permanent trip to the lake of fire.

When a believer dies, they are immediately ushered into the presence of Jesus and receive rewards for what has been done. That is what the story of works of hay, wood and stubble mean. Works not done in faith are worthless and will be discounted. Only those Holy Spirit enables will count. Crowns will be given. That is the first resurrection.

The second is bad news for anyone in that camp for they will be judged out of the "books". There are two sets of books. The Book of Life and the "books" of works a person has done who is not in the Book of Life. You will notice-- and Ralp clearly didn't understand it and thought he had a championed moment-- the people at the Great White Throne are judged out of the books, not the book of Life. Read it. It is there.

The John passage you quoted speaks of two resurrections. Figure it out.
This is most certainly true. I dealt with the "walk in the light" many times on here--but of course, my Bible verses and comments were ignored, as if I had not written anything...I did save some of that exchange. I will put some down on here, after I find it in my archives.
 
Been over it numerous times before, dberrie. You simply don't understand scripture because your Mormon doctrine can't allow you to see what scripture actually says and means. The blood of Jesus cleanses all believers of sin by faith alone. No one has said it wasn't needed.

There is nothing in the posted scripture about "faith alone". The testimony found in 1 John 1:7 connects a "walk in the light"-- as a condition of His cleansing Blood--and connects it in a way which violates the theology of your claim--and the claim of the critics here:

1 John 1:7---King James Version
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Trying to alter that is your choice--but there it is.

You get that when you become a believer.

That only connects walking in the light as an integral component of belief.

and you greatly misunderstand what happens at the resurrections (yes plural). Bless is he who is part of the first resurrection. The second is at the Great White Throne judgement-- exactly where you Mormons believe you will be. The consequences of being there are a permanent trip to the lake of fire.

The posted scripture has all men being judged according to works--and that for life or damnation:

John 5:28-29--King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
That violates the theology you push here.

Just what one will find being taught in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

When a believer dies, they are immediately ushered into the presence of Jesus and receive rewards for what has been done.

And the reward is either "life" or "damnation":

they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

That is what the story of works of hay, wood and stubble mean. Works not done in faith are worthless and will be discounted. Only those Holy Spirit enables will count. Crowns will be given. That is the first resurrection.
The second is bad news for anyone in that camp for they will be judged out of the "books". There are two sets of books. The Book of Life and the "books" of works a person has done who is not in the Book of Life. You will notice-- and Ralp clearly didn't understand it and thought he had a championed moment-- the people at the Great White Throne are judged out of the books, not the book of Life. Read it. It is there.

The John passage you quoted speaks of two resurrections. Figure it out.

And both the resurrection of life--and the resurrection of damnation--is a judgment according to works:

they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
 
Here you go, Organgrinder:


and here, from the Lutheran board:


I clearly wrote and showed from these bible verses HOW we "walk in the light." We can ONLY do so by grace through faith in Christ Jesus our Lord. "Walking in the light" does not precede faith; those who are not in the true Jesus Christ--like Mormons--walk in spiritual darkness. There is no salvation for them. Jesus Christ is the "Light of the world" and those who believe in Him walk in the Light, and are able to bear the fruit of the Spirit in Him.

But once again, we see evidence of these "debate" tactics I have listed here in my signature:

3. Repeat the same old questions, over and over again, and....
4. Pretend we have not answered their questions or dealt with their points, to make it appear that we have not, and they have won the debate
5. Ignore our points and Bible verses that put their quoted bible verses into proper perspective, that show that they have misinterpreted and/or misunderstood what the Bible was talking about.
 
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This is most certainly true. I dealt with the "walk in the light" many times on here--but of course, my Bible verses and comments were ignored, as if I had not written anything...I did save some of that exchange. I will put some down on here, after I find it in my archives.
I have dealt with "walk in the light" many times as well on here and on other Christian forum sites and my comments are typically ignored by works-salvationists who abuse these verses to erroneously create a third camp of children of God who walk in darkness and are no longer cleansed from all sin by the blood of Christ. It's also common for works-salvationists to confuse 'descriptive' passages of scripture with 'prescriptive' passages of scripture and the end result is works righteousness/salvation based on works.

This is from my archive.

1 John 1:6 - If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. Walking in darkness is descriptive of children of the devil. Walking in the light is descriptive of children of God. Only those who are saved/believers are in the light.

Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.

2 Corinthians 6:14 - Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness?

Ephesians 5:8 - for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light. Children of the devil walk in darkness, not in the light. Children of God walk in the light, not in darkness. IF confirms these positions in verses 6 and 7. It's one or the other.

In 1 John 2:9, we read - He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now. In verse 11 - But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.

*Compare with 1 John 3:10 - In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, (compare with 1 John 1:6 - does not practice the truth) nor is he who does not love his brother. *Notice that "walks in darkness" and "hates his brother" is connected with "children of the devil."
 
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Here you go, Organgrinder:


and here, from the Lutheran board:


I clearly wrote and showed from these bible verses HOW we "walk in the light." We can ONLY do so by grace through faith in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Bonnie--the problem for the critics here isn't how one walks in the light--it's the fact the Biblical testimony connects walking in the light as a condition to receiving His cleansing Blood:

1 John 1:7---King James Version
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

"Walking in the light" does not precede faith;

A "walk in the light" does precede the cleansing Blood of Jesus Christ:

1 John 1:7---King James Version
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

So--is one saved prior to the Blood of Christ cleansing them? Bonnie--that's the question one might want to face in the testimony found in 1John1:7.

those who are not in the true Jesus Christ--like Mormons--walk in spiritual darkness.

One cannot blame "Mormons" for what the Biblical scriptures bear testimony to in 1John1:7--that is a diversionary tactic.

You, and the critics here--if you are interested in engaging what the Biblical NT testifies to--need to engage what the actual scriptures testify to--not what you can blame on the LDS, or add to that testimony, so it might comport to your theology.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9---King James Version
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
 
I have dealt with "walk in the light" many times as well on here and on other Christian forum sites and my comments are typically ignored by works-salvationists who abuse these verses to erroneously create a third camp of children of God who walk in darkness and are no longer cleansed from all sin by the blood of Christ.

This is from my archive.

1 John 1:6 - If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. Walking in darkness is descriptive of children of the devil. Walking in the light is descriptive of children of God.

That connects walking in the light as integral to being the "children of God".

Only those who are saved/believers are in the light.

That only begs the question--is one saved prior to the cleansing Blood of Jesus Christ--or after?

1 John 1:7---King James Version
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.

The scriptures connect repentance and water baptism with the forgiveness of sins:

Acts 2:38---King James Version
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Two questions:

1) Is that an example of walking in the light?
2) Is one saved prior to the remission of sins?

2 Corinthians 6:14 - Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness?

Ephesians 5:8 - for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light. Children of the devil walk in darkness, not in the light. Children of God walk in the light, not in darkness. IF confirms these positions in verses 6 and 7. It's one or the other.

In 1 John 2:9, we read - He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now. In verse 11 - But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.

*Compare with 1 John 3:10 - In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, (compare with 1 John 1:6 - does not practice the truth) nor is he who does not love his brother. *Notice that "walks in darkness" and "hates his brother" is connected with "children of the devil."

I don't find anything there which violates the testimony presented by the scriptures --in that those who walk in the light--receive the cleansing Blood of Jesus Christ.

Could you explain for us how one could obey UNTO righteousness--unless they first received the cleansing Blood of Christ unto righteousness? And, if it is obedience unto the point of righteousness--then obedience precedes the righteousness.

Romans 6:16---King James Version
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
 
That connects walking in the light as integral to being the "children of God".
That connects walking in the light as "descriptive" of "children of God" and ONLY children of God are "in the light." (Acts 26:18; 2 Corinthians 6:14; Ephesians 5:8)

That only begs the question--is one saved prior to the cleansing Blood of Jesus Christ--or after?
Acts 13:39 - and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.

The blood of Christ cleanses believers of their sins at the moment of salvation and the cleansing is continuous.

1 John 1:7---King James Version
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
Who walks in the light? Children of God or children of the devil? Children of God. IF we walk in the light is a confirmation for children of God.

The scriptures connect repentance and water baptism with the forgiveness of sins:

Acts 2:38---King James Version
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Two questions:

1) Is that an example of walking in the light?
2) Is one saved prior to the remission of sins?
So you are saying that walking in the light merely describes receiving water baptism? One is not saved prior to receiving remission of sins and everyone who believes in Him receives remission of sins (Acts 10:43) prior to receiving water baptism. (Acts 10:44-47)

In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.

*Also compare the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:45 received the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) and this was BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:47).

In Acts 10:43 we read ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. Again, these Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit - Acts 10:45 - when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 11:17 - (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47. This is referred to as repentance unto life - Acts 11:18.

*So the only logical conclusion when properly harmonizing scripture with scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*

I don't find anything there which violates the testimony presented by the scriptures --in that those who walk in the light--receive the cleansing Blood of Jesus Christ.
Your biased church doctrine and twisting of scripture violates the testimony presented by the scripture.

Could you explain for us how one could obey UNTO righteousness--unless they first received the cleansing Blood of Christ unto righteousness? And, if it is obedience unto the point of righteousness--then obedience precedes the righteousness.

Romans 6:16---King James Version
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Everything with you revolves around SALVATION BY WORKS and there is a reason for that. How does one become a servant of obedience unto righteousness? By faith or by works? We must first obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16; 1:16) in order to become righteous.

Notice in Romans 10:10 - For with the heart one believes unto righteousness..

Notice in Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith (not works) is accounted for righteousness.

There are only two kinds of servants in this world, in the spiritual sense; servants of sin unto death, or servants of obedience unto righteousness. When we place our faith exclusively in Jesus Christ for salvation/believe the gospel by trusting in His finished work of redemption as the all sufficient means of our salvation we then become "servants of obedience unto righteousness." Being servants of sin is put in the past tense.

Paul goes on in Romans 6:18 - "You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness." Works-salvationists typically ignore "servants of obedience unto righteousness" (Romans 6:16) and simply stresses "obedience unto righteousness" as if works of obedience which "follow" saving faith in Christ are "unto righteousness," as if we are saved by works. That continues to be your stumbling block and achilles heel.
 
Bonnie--the problem for the critics here isn't how one walks in the light--it's the fact the Biblical testimony connects walking in the light as a condition to receiving His cleansing Blood:

1 John 1:7---King James Version
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.



A "walk in the light" does precede the cleansing Blood of Jesus Christ:

1 John 1:7---King James Version
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

So--is one saved prior to the Blood of Christ cleansing them? Bonnie--that's the question one might want to face in the testimony found in 1John1:7.



One cannot blame "Mormons" for what the Biblical scriptures bear testimony to in 1John1:7--that is a diversionary tactic.

You, and the critics here--if you are interested in engaging what the Biblical NT testifies to--need to engage what the actual scriptures testify to--not what you can blame on the LDS, or add to that testimony, so it might comport to your theology.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9---King James Version
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
 
That connects walking in the light as "descriptive" of "children of God" and ONLY children of God are "in the light." (Acts 26:18; 2 Corinthians 6:14; Ephesians 5:8)


Acts 13:39 - and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.

The blood of Christ cleanses believers of their sins at the moment of salvation and the cleansing is continuous.


Who walks in the light? Children of God or children of the devil? Children of God. IF we walk in the light is a confirmation for children of God.

The scriptures connect repentance and water baptism with the forgiveness of sins:


So you are saying that walking in the light merely describes receiving water baptism? One is not saved prior to receiving remission of sins and everyone who believes in Him receives remission of sins (Acts 10:43) prior to receiving water baptism. (Acts 10:44-47)

In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.

*Also compare the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:45 received the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) and this was BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:47).

In Acts 10:43 we read ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. Again, these Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit - Acts 10:45 - when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 11:17 - (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47. This is referred to as repentance unto life - Acts 11:18.

*So the only logical conclusion when properly harmonizing scripture with scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*


Your biased church doctrine and twisting of scripture violates the testimony presented by the scripture.


Everything with you revolves around SALVATION BY WORKS and there is a reason for that. How does one become a servant of obedience unto righteousness? By faith or by works? We must first obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16; 1:16) in order to become righteous.

Notice in Romans 10:10 - For with the heart one believes unto righteousness..

Notice in Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith (not works) is accounted for righteousness.

There are only two kinds of servants in this world, in the spiritual sense; servants of sin unto death, or servants of obedience unto righteousness. When we place our faith exclusively in Jesus Christ for salvation/believe the gospel by trusting in His finished work of redemption as the all sufficient means of our salvation we then become "servants of obedience unto righteousness." Being servants of sin is put in the past tense.

Paul goes on in Romans 6:18 - "You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness." Works-salvationists typically ignore "servants of obedience unto righteousness" (Romans 6:16) and simply stresses "obedience unto righteousness" as if works of obedience which "follow" saving faith in Christ are "unto righteousness," as if we are saved by works. That continues to be your stumbling block and Achilles heel.
Excellent post, MMDAN. But be prepared to have "But how does this correlate that we must walk in the light?" or something similar being given as a "non-answer" by a certain Mormon. :)

Works righteous groups just do not "get it." It just doesn't seem right to them that Jesus paid and did IT ALL. That we are helpless to save ourselves and must swallow our pride and admit we are helpless and turn to Jesus and humbly ask Him to save us and save us completely. Pride was the first sin, remember...I ran across this cartoon on a Facebook site that compares Christianity to Mormonism:

327907055_581739686714686_4305017903271333219_n.jpg

This is the LDS church and other works righteous churches, like the RCC, though at least they believe in the One true God.

Kinda sad, isn't it?
 
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Been over it numerous times before,
And yet you're still not getting it.
You simply don't understand scripture because your Mormon doctrine can't allow you to see what scripture actually says and means.
You simply don't understand scripture because your mindless doctrines won't allow you to see what the scripture "actually says and means". LOL. What a ridiculous argument. The scripture actually says those who do good will be resurrected to life and that to obtain life, keep the commandments. You doctrine tells us that's not what it means. ?
No one has said it wasn't needed.
What do you mean by "needed"? The way I understand needed is that it's necessary or the objective cannot be reached. If that is true, then salvation is achieved through works, specifically keeping the commandments per Jesus Christ, what he said, not what you think he meant.
 
That connects walking in the light as "descriptive" of "children of God" and ONLY children of God are "in the light." (Acts 26:18; 2 Corinthians 6:14; Ephesians 5:8)
Righteousness is as righteousness does. Take your point to Cornelius. He was not saved, was not worshiping the God of the Jews and yet God called upon him based only on his righteousness. You claim is empty. It chokes out the spirit leaving those who heard it spiritually malnourished.
 
The blood of Christ cleanses believers of their sins at the moment of salvation and the cleansing is continuous.
Heh. Well, at least you answer questions instead of deflecting, let's see how you do with this one: so this "cleansing" is continuous, does that mean the person who murders someone is cleansed continually no matter how many times he murders? Can you explain how that works? I know a few adulterers who would like to be continuously cleansed like that.
 
Who walks in the light?
Anyone who keeps the commandments regardless if they believe your tripe or not.
Children of God or children of the devil?
I know a lot of so-called Christians who don't keep the commandments, a few preachers of this nonsense as well. Tell me, who walks in the light? The sinner or the follower of Christ? Who do you think the audience was that this passage was directed to? Would you go look it up and tell me if it was to the church or to the people on Mars hill? Who are the "we" in that passage. I'll give you a hint, that "we" included John an apostle of Jesus. He's not talking to the children of wrath there. He's talking to you and your ilk. You only walk in the light if you keep the commandments. If not, then you are not walking in the light.

I hope that hint helps you out.
Children of God. IF we walk in the light is a confirmation for children of God
Yes. Those who keep the commandments are walking in the light. But those who claim they are the children of God, who are not keeping the commandments, well, I guess by your claim, they must not be the children of God.
The scriptures connect repentance and water baptism with the forgiveness of sins
It does. That's why those who are not baptized cannot be saved. But, I have to ask, what does repentance mean? What happens to the person who repents but doesn't change and keeps repenting of the same sin? Has he repented or is he just putting off the inevitable?
 
Been over it numerous times before, dberrie. You simply don't understand scripture because your Mormon doctrine can't allow you to see what scripture actually says and means. The blood of Jesus cleanses all believers of sin by faith alone. No one has said it wasn't needed. You get that when you become a believer. and you greatly misunderstand what happens at the resurrections (yes plural). Bless is he who is part of the first resurrection. The second is at the Great White Throne judgement-- exactly where you Mormons believe you will be. The consequences of being there are a permanent trip to the lake of fire.

When a believer dies, they are immediately ushered into the presence of Jesus and receive rewards for what has been done. That is what the story of works of hay, wood and stubble mean. Works not done in faith are worthless and will be discounted. Only those Holy Spirit enables will count. Crowns will be given. That is the first resurrection.

When Jesus was crucified along with the thief, they did not go to heaven.... they went to Paradise. Period, and that's scripture.



The second is bad news for anyone in that camp for they will be judged out of the "books". There are two sets of books. The Book of Life and the "books" of works a person has done who is not in the Book of Life. You will notice-- and Ralp clearly didn't understand it and thought he had a championed moment-- the people at the Great White Throne are judged out of the books, not the book of Life. Read it. It is there.

The John passage you quoted speaks of two resurrections. Figure it out.
Yep, those written in our mind and those kept in heaven. Books.
 
Excellent post, MMDAN. But be prepared to have "But how does this correlate that we must walk in the light?" or something similar being given as a "non-answer" by a certain Mormon. :)

Works righteous groups just do not "get it." It just doesn't seem right to them that Jesus paid and did IT ALL. That we are helpless to save ourselves and must swallow our pride and admit we are helpless and turn to Jesus and humbly ask Him to save us and save us completely. Pride was the first sin, remember...I ran across this cartoon on a Facebook site that compares Christianity to Mormonism:

327907055_581739686714686_4305017903271333219_n.jpg

This is the LDS church and other works righteous churches, like the RCC, though at least they believe in the One true God.

Kinda sad, isn't it?
Great cartoon, I wonder why the Jesus Paid it All is looking miserable and those in the other line seem to be happy...
 
So you are saying that walking in the light merely describes receiving water baptism?
No. He was asking if that is an example, Repentance included.
One is not saved prior to receiving remission of sins
So, are you saying that one is not saved prior to baptism?
everyone who believes in Him receives remission of sins (Acts 10:43)
That only connects baptism with those who believe in him. Baptism = a remission of sins. You can't get it any other way. Billions of people believe in Jesus Christ and continue to walk in darkness, even devils believe. No one receives a remission of their sins until and unless they are baptized. This is the ordinance that marks the beginning of a lifelong path to salvation. Without it, no one can enter the kingdom of God. No one.
prior to receiving water baptism. (Acts 10:44-47)
While is true that those who do not believe will probably not get baptized, hence believing is a prerequisite for baptism, it is not a substitute.
In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first.
That just doesn't make any sense. You just made that up. If you're not going to accept baptism all the repentance in the world is not going to get you into kingdom of God.
Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.
It is mandatory. It's not a side note. Your opinion aside. Jesus set the standard. You guys as making Jesus'words the side note. I believe it's all done to save the damned who repent at death (that's probably where baptism by sprinkling a little water came from) and to accept those that think their baptism within another church should be good enough. Frankly, your religions are religions of convenience. You all don't want to put anyone off and are in it more for the money than for the gospel.

No one can enter the kingdom of God unless they have been baptised of water and of the spirit. A witness of the spirit is not enough, it must be received by the laying on of hands by one having authority and that authority must come from God, not some college professor.
Also compare the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:45 received the gift of the Holy Spirit
They received A gift of the Holy Ghost, not The gift.
and this was BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:47).
Doesn't matter, most everyone receives a witness of the Holy Ghost before they are baptized. The Holy Ghost can fall on anyone it chooses when ever it chooses. The gift itself can only be received after a covenant is made to receive Christ through baptism, the watery grace (not sprinkles).

Note: regardless of the illogical conclusions which are drawn here by our critics, it is obvious that baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation. There is no escaping that fact though our critics have made it a profession to do so. The order of events, which they seem to think is an important talking point, while it is, it's just not the issue they make it out to be. The holy ghost can fall on anyone, that's up to the Holy Ghost, not us or the people preaching the gospel. That witness has no saving value. It is not a ticket to enter heaven by itself. One must exercise faith in Jesus Christ by committing to follow him and his teachings through baptism of water and of the spirit. There is no other way.
 
Great cartoon, I wonder why the Jesus Paid it All is looking miserable and those in the other line seem to be happy...
He isn't miserable, but...sad.

Why would he be sad, Richard? I know...let's see if you can figure it out.
 
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When Jesus was crucified along with the thief, they did not go to heaven.... they went to Paradise. Period, and that's scripture.




Yep, those written in our mind and those kept in heaven. Books.
That is correct Ralph, because Jesus had not yet been resurrected. After He resurrected and Ascended, those dead saints made the trip to heaven. That trip included the thief. That is why Paul can say to be absent from the body is to be with the Lord. Dead folks who are believers no longer go to "Paradise". Dead folk who are not believers in Jesus go to hell (Gehena, the abode of the dead). They will be resurrected just before the Great White Throne judgment. and it won't be pleasant.

Now on Revelation 20...
Rev 20:4-6
And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
NKJV

After that 1,000 years on earth, Stan will be loosed and then put in his place. Let's read...

Rev 20:7-10
Satan will be released from his prison
8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea.
9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
NKJV

Following that is the Great White Throne Judgment this happens:
Rev 20:12-15
And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
NKJV

These folks being judged were not found in the book of life. They were judged according to their works. and Death and Hades delivered them up. These folks, relying upon their own works, find it won't be good enough and will spend eternity in the lake of fire.

There are two resurrections and two sets of books. There is set of books detailing works of the unsaved and there is the Book of Life. That is what scripture says.
 
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