Works question

Icyspark

Active member
My first assumption would be that such a person is saying we are saved by faith 'plus works' and is most likely a legalist.


Hi MMDAN,

Thanks for your response. My next question is whether you believe that James is "most likely a legalist"?

You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

God bless!
 

MMDAN

Well-known member
Hi MMDAN,

Thanks for your response. My next question is whether you believe that James is "most likely a legalist"?

You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

God bless!
Not at all because James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous.

James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)
 

Icyspark

Active member
Not at all because James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous.

James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)


Hi MMDAN,

I'd say that's a close approximation of SDA belief on salvation. Jesus said if you love Him you will obey Him. Works reveal whether faith is real.

God bless!
 

Icyspark

Active member
The proper view of works is that works do not save, but works evidence salvation.

What is the SDA view in a nutshell?


Hi Simpletruther,

I started a new thread titled, "Works Relation to Salvation" which gives my Seventh-day Adventist perspective of what the Bible teaches about works and salvation.


God bless!
 
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Simpletruther

Well-known member
Hi Simpletruther,

I started a new thread titled, "Works Relation to Salvation" which gives my Seventh-day Adventist perspective of what the Bible teaches about works and salvation.


God bless!
So you seem to agree works evidence salvation, is that right?
 

Icyspark

Active member
That seems to say works evidence salvation


Hi Simpletruther,

It seems that you still haven't read my post. It sounds more like you're making an assumption based on the title. Would that be correct?


Did you read my post?


You mean the one to which I just replied where you asked, "So you seem to agree works evidence salvation, is that right?" Yeah, I'm pretty sure I read that. 🙃
 
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Simpletruther

Well-known member
Hi Simpletruther,

It seems that you still haven't read my post. It sounds more like you're making an assumption based on the title. Would that be correct?





You mean the one to which I just replied where you asked, "So you seem to agree works evidence salvation, is that right?" Yeah, I'm pretty sure I read that. 🙃
Yes that post. Did you read it? Why not just answer the question?
 

Icyspark

Active member
Yes that post. Did you read it? Why not just answer the question?


Hi Simpletruther,

I did answer the question. The thread I linked you to provides a very lengthy response. Is jumping over to look at the other thread a problem and you would prefer that I paste the entire thing here? I can do that.

 

Simpletruther

Well-known member
Hi Simpletruther,

I did answer the question. The thread I linked you to provides a very lengthy response. Is jumping over to look at the other thread a problem and you would prefer that I paste the entire thing here? I can do that.

I read it. Maybe I am slow. Can you quote the part that directly answers?
 

Icyspark

Active member
The proper view of works is that works do not save, but works evidence salvation.

What is the SDA view in a nutshell?


Hi Simpletruther,

The nutshell response to your question is: works reveal whether your faith is real.

Here's my extended nutshell response:

For a number of people there seems to be some confusion as to why they should observe the Sabbath. Aside from the fact that its part of the Ten Commandment covenant in which the command itself says we are to "Remember the Sabbath day"; Aside from the fact that the Sabbath provides all humans with a day of physical rest; Aside from the fact that each Sabbath is to be observed in honor of Jesus creating the heavens and the Earth; Aside from the fact that God says we're to call the Sabbath a delight; Aside from the fact that Jesus said that the Sabbath was "made for human beings"; Aside from the fact that Jesus, the apostles, Paul and Gentiles all observed the Sabbath; I guess there's really no reason at all ::shrugs::

But let's set all of that aside ;) and consider what Jesus says about salvation:

Matthew 5:27-30
“You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery.' But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.
  • Jesus quotes from the Ten Commandment covenant: "You shall not commit adultery."
  • Jesus magnifies the law and equates adultery with looking lustfully at a woman.
  • Jesus says it is better to pluck out your eye rather than to be guilty of adultery.
  • Jesus says it is better to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. (Translation: LOSS OF SALVATION)
The act of adultery (or murder, or theft, or +7) is not what denies salvation. It merely reveals your lack of love for the One you claim to love. God says, "Those that honor Me, I will honor." Do you know where that quote is found in the Bible? Go look it up sometime. It's very enlightening.

So, what do you think? According to Jesus, is there any correlation between what you do and your salvation?

For those of you who are inclined to reject, deny or abolish the words of Jesus I suggest you take the following text into account:

Mark 8:38
If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his Father’s glory with the holy angels.”

And also these verses:

Luke 6:46-49
“Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say? As for everyone who comes to me and hears my words and puts them into practice, I will show you what they are like. They are like a man building a house, who dug down deep and laid the foundation on rock. When a flood came, the torrent struck that house but could not shake it, because it was well built. But the one who hears my words and does not put them into practice is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation. The moment the torrent struck that house, it collapsed and its destruction was complete.

And this passage:

John 12:47-50
If anyone hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge that person. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day. For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken. I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say.”

But maybe you think that Paul will go easier on your belief? Let's see:

1 Corinthians 6:9-11
Don’t you realize that those who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God? [Note that here Paul equates doing wrong with loss of salvation.] Don’t fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, or who worship idols, or commit adultery, [Look at that! One of the Ten Commandments! And if Paul mentions one, of necessity he includes all ten.] or are male prostitutes, or practice homosexuality, or are thieves, or greedy people, or drunkards, or are abusive, or cheat people—none of these will inherit the Kingdom of God. Some of you were once like that. But you were cleansed; you were made holy; you were made right with God by calling on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Do you suppose Paul is a works-oriented legalist? Probably not, but could it be that if you've ever used that legalist term against someone I'm surmising you probably weren't applying it consistently. If you were I'd bet that Paul wouldn't pass your muster.

Again, works don't earn our salvation--works merely validate our claim that we love Jesus.

Paul says, "Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you—unless, of course, you fail the test?" Your works reveal whether your faith is real.

James very succinctly explains that faith without works is dead (James 2:14-26). If you claim you love Jesus, yet don't do what He says, then your faith is dead.

John 14:15-21 records Jesus saying the following:

If you love me, keep my commands. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever—the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.

Conversely, what about those who do not love Jesus? In verse 24 Jesus says, "Anyone who doesn't love me will not obey me."

It's amazing how many of the critics of Adventism have attempted to redact all of the commands of Jesus down to two commands which apparently they believe are open to interpretation. Love for your neighbor is not nebulous and left undefined. Jesus provided explicit commands in His Ten Commandment covenant which define how we are to love our neighbor. The covenant/agreement was canceled, but it was canceled based on the failure of the people to keep their end of the agreement. What they agreed to was obviously not the problem. "God found fault with the people," not with His perfect law.
  • Since most critics believe there is no law then they have no need to "stop sinning," as Jesus, Peter, John and Paul all admonish Christians;
  • Since formers have no law to identify sin, then they are sinless;
  • Since they are "sinless," they have no need for grace;
  • Since they have no need for grace, then they have no need for forgiveness;
  • Since they have no need for forgiveness, then they have no need for a Savior;
  • Since they have no need for a Savior, then they have no need for Jesus;
  • If they have no need for Jesus, then we see who's truly in a cult. A religion without Jesus is empty and devoid of any eternal value.
Let's review what we've learned today:
  • We've established that Jesus says to cut out your eye rather than to look at a woman lustfully and go to hell. / SALVATIONAL
  • We've established that Jesus says to cut off your hand and throw it away rather than to go to hell. / SALVATIONAL
  • We've established that Paul says if you worship idols you "WILL NOT inherit the Kingdom of God" / SALVATIONAL
  • We've established that Paul says if you commit adultery you "WILL NOT inherit the Kingdom of God" / SALVATIONAL
  • We've established that Paul says if you steal you "WILL NOT inherit the Kingdom of God" / SALVATIONAL
For which one of these established biblical beliefs do you wish to condemn me as being a legalist?

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark
 
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