"works righteousness"

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Tertiumquid said:
I once explained justification by faith alone as opposed to works righteousness to a guy at work.

I have asked on a number of occasions for someone on this board to explain what "works righteousness" means--the response now belongs to the cricket choir.

Perhaps you would like to venture an explanation of "works righteousness"?

Anyone???
 

Tertiumquid

Member
I have asked on a number of occasions for someone on this board to explain what "works righteousness" means--the response now belongs to the cricket choir.

Perhaps you would like to venture an explanation of "works righteousness"?

Anyone???
Beginning with the later, the Greek noun "righteousness" has the same Greek root of the verb "to justify" so in English, to be "justified" is in essence, to be "righteous-fied." With the former term: "works" are units of energy that a person does, be it his daily job, the way he treats others, etc. Put them together: one's units of energy are an attempt to make one righteous enough to stand in the presence of a Holy God without being instantly annihilated.

This is in fact, a completely valid way to come into the eternal presence of a Holy God. One can certainly use the method of "works righteousness" to stand in God's presence without being instantly annihilated. See Romans 2, God will "render to each one according to his works." God is completely fair: God will certainly take someone into fellowship for all eternity that lives an entirely perfect life and who lives each moment in pure holiness and perfection.
 

Bonnie

Well-known member
Beginning with the later, the Greek noun "righteousness" has the same Greek root of the verb "to justify" so in English, to be "justified" is in essence, to be "righteous-fied." With the former term: "works" are units of energy that a person does, be it his daily job, the way he treats others, etc. Put them together: one's units of energy are an attempt to make one righteous enough to stand in the presence of a Holy God without being instantly annihilated.

This is in fact, a completely valid way to come into the eternal presence of a Holy God. One can certainly use the method of "works righteousness" to stand in God's presence without being instantly annihilated. See Romans 2, God will "render to each one according to his works." God is completely fair: God will certainly take someone into fellowship for all eternity that lives an entirely perfect life and who lives each moment in pure holiness and perfection.
....and never once sins, in thought, word, or deed, in his entire life. Not even for a nanosecond!

Good luck with that!

Just a bit more here, Tert..."justify" can also mean "prove" in some contexts. When Jesus says that "wisdom is justified by her children" He means that wisdom is proven by her children. So, I think James 2:24 can also mean that works PROVE our faith is real, true saving faith, which, in context, is validated by the rest of the chapter and the rest of the NT, as well. For a real, true, living faith will ALWAYS result in works of love toward our fellow human beings, which we do IN salvation, not FOR salvation. IF we do them to help save ourselves, then we are doing them ultimately "all for me" and that is selfish, as the minister who wrote that sermon points out. And there is NO love in selfishness.
 

Tertiumquid

Member
Just a bit more here, Tert..."justify" can also mean "prove" in some contexts. When Jesus says that "wisdom is justified by her children" He means that wisdom is proven by her children.
Thanks. I was attempting to keep it as simple as possible.

Word meanings are certainly determined by contexts as you point out. Dikaioō has three basic meanings, depending on the biblical context:

1) To declare something is justified in the sense that a present actions prove the truth of a prior claim: i.e.- A few months ago I predicted that CARM would come back on line. My previous truth claim was justified. (Wisdom is proven by her children).

2) Something is justified because it is in harmony with the demands of the law: i.e.-My wearing a face mask and socially distancing fulfills my state's regulations. I am justified to walk into Home Depot and shop. (faith without works is dead).

3) To declare justified based on the work of someone / something else: I'm on line at the store with an expensive item, and realize I forgot my 50% off coupon. The person behind me in line gives me theirs. My getting 50% off is justified by the coupon someone else gave me. (all have sinned and are justified by His his grace as a gift).
 

Bonnie

Well-known member
Thanks. I was attempting to keep it as simple as possible.

Word meanings are certainly determined by contexts as you point out. Dikaioō has three basic meanings, depending on the biblical context:

1) To declare something is justified in the sense that a present actions prove the truth of a prior claim: i.e.- A few months ago I predicted that CARM would come back on line. My previous truth claim was justified. (Wisdom is proven by her children).

2) Something is justified because it is in harmony with the demands of the law: i.e.-My wearing a face mask and socially distancing fulfills my state's regulations. I am justified to walk into Home Depot and shop. (faith without works is dead).

3) To declare justified based on the work of someone / something else: I'm on line at the store with an expensive item, and realize I forgot my 50% off coupon. The person behind me in line gives me theirs. My getting 50% off is justified by the coupon someone else gave me. (all have sinned and are justified by His his grace as a gift).
Thanks, Tert. Very nicely put. :)
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Beginning with the later, the Greek noun "righteousness" has the same Greek root of the verb "to justify" so in English, to be "justified" is in essence, to be "righteous-fied." With the former term: "works" are units of energy that a person does, be it his daily job, the way he treats others, etc. Put them together: one's units of energy are an attempt to make one righteous enough to stand in the presence of a Holy God without being instantly annihilated.

This is in fact, a completely valid way to come into the eternal presence of a Holy God. One can certainly use the method of "works righteousness" to stand in God's presence without being instantly annihilated. See Romans 2, God will "render to each one according to his works." God is completely fair: God will certainly take someone into fellowship for all eternity that lives an entirely perfect life and who lives each moment in pure holiness and perfection.

IOW--"works righteousness" is thinking God is going to extend His grace, if they walk in His light?

1 John 1:7---King James Version
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
....and never once sins, in thought, word, or deed, in his entire life. Not even for a nanosecond!

Good luck with that!

Just a bit more here, Tert..."justify" can also mean "prove" in some contexts. When Jesus says that "wisdom is justified by her children" He means that wisdom is proven by her children. So, I think James 2:24 can also mean that works PROVE our faith is real, true saving faith,

So--is "real, true saving faith" necessary for salvation to occur?

Is it "real. true saving faith" without the works?

which, in context, is validated by the rest of the chapter and the rest of the NT, as well. For a real, true, living faith will ALWAYS result in works of love toward our fellow human beings, which we do IN salvation, not FOR salvation.

Could you explain why the Savior separated the sheep and goats on the basis demonstrated in this parable?

Matthew 25:31-46---King James Version
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Is that an example of "works righteousness"?

IF we do them to help save ourselves, then we are doing them ultimately "all for me" and that is selfish, as the minister who wrote that sermon points out. And there is NO love in selfishness.

Would this apply here?

John 14:15---King James Version
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
 

Bonnie

Well-known member
So--is "real, true saving faith" necessary for salvation to occur?

Is it "real. true saving faith" without the works?



Could you explain why the Savior separated the sheep and goats on the basis demonstrated in this parable?

Matthew 25:31-46---King James Version
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Is that an example of "works righteousness"?



Would this apply here?

John 14:15---King James Version
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Lutheran theology | Page 7 | CARM Forums
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
So--is "real, true saving faith" necessary for salvation to occur?

Is it "real. true saving faith" without the works?

Could you explain why the Savior separated the sheep and goats on the basis demonstrated in this parable?

Matthew 25:31-46---King James Version
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Is that an example of "works righteousness"?

Would this apply here?

John 14:15---King James Version
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Bump for Bonnie--or any Lutheran
 

Tertiumquid

Member
IOW--"works righteousness" is thinking God is going to extend His grace, if they walk in His light?

1 John 1:7---King James Version
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
I assume that by your "IOW" you now know what "works righteousness" means and you can rest your cricket choir. I'm so glad I could help you understand what "works righteousness" means. You're welcome!
 

Tertiumquid

Member
Bump for Bonnie--or any Lutheran
Could you explain why Paul says (via Psalm 32) that God counts righteousness apart from all works... both good and bad? (see Romans 4).

After years of you perpetually asking "how" and "why" to the Lutherans here, fairness dictates you should answer questions as well.
 

Bonnie

Well-known member
Could you explain why Paul says (via Psalm 32) that God counts righteousness apart from all works... both good and bad? (see Romans 4).

After years of you perpetually asking "how" and "why" to the Lutherans here, fairness dictates you should answer questions as well.
Amen to that! And that our faith is counted as righteousness? As Abe's faith was?

Justification by Faith​

21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood THROUGH faith.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
I assume that by your "IOW" you now know what "works righteousness" means and you can rest your cricket choir. I'm so glad I could help you understand what "works righteousness" means. You're welcome!
So--are you confirming the"IOW"?

IOW--"works righteousness" is thinking God is going to extend His grace, if they walk in His light?

1 John 1:7---King James Version

7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

So--where does that leave Lutherans on their "works righteousness" claims? On their theology--period?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Could you explain why Paul says (via Psalm 32) that God counts righteousness apart from all works... both good and bad? (see Romans 4).

Could you quote that verse of "all works"--unless it is a reference to certain works found in the Mosaic Law?

Romans 2:5-11---King James Version

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Could you explain how Paul connects our deeds to eternal life--and that all men will be judged according to their deeds--and fit that into your claim?

Galatians 6:7-9---King James Version
7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

After years of you perpetually asking "how" and "why" to the Lutherans here, fairness dictates you should answer questions as well.

I agree. So--what is your question?

My question is--how do the Lutherans fit their theology into the Biblical witness?

1 John 1:7---King James Version
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Amen to that! And that our faith is counted as righteousness? As Abe's faith was?
Was this Abraham's faith?

Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
 
I have asked on a number of occasions for someone on this board to explain what "works righteousness" means--the response now belongs to the cricket choir.

Perhaps you would like to venture an explanation of "works righteousness"?

Anyone???

True believers do not do their own works; they do the works of God. Ephesians 2:10. God's works are quite righteous and this is how they "become the righteousness of God in [Christ]" 2 Cor 5:21. The righteousness of God is to do not our own works but God's righteous works. And that is why only those who do the will of God will enter the Kingdom, those who build their house upon the rock doing the things Jesus teaches, obeying the words of the Father which Jesus spoke by doing them.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
True believers do not do their own works; they do the works of God. Ephesians 2:10. God's works are quite righteous and this is how they "become the righteousness of God in [Christ]" 2 Cor 5:21. The righteousness of God is to do not our own works but God's righteous works. And that is why only those who do the will of God will enter the Kingdom, those who build their house upon the rock doing the things Jesus teaches, obeying the words of the Father which Jesus spoke by doing them.

I agree. Lutherans might label your approach as "works righteousness".
 

Bonnie

Well-known member
I agree. Lutherans might label your approach as "works righteousness".
True believers do not do their own works; they do the works of God. Ephesians 2:10. God's works are quite righteous and this is how they "become the righteousness of God in [Christ]" 2 Cor 5:21. The righteousness of God is to do not our own works but God's righteous works. And that is why only those who do the will of God will enter the Kingdom, those who build their house upon the rock doing the things Jesus teaches, obeying the words of the Father which Jesus spoke by doing them.
And we do the "works of God" IN Christ Jesus our Lord. We do them BECAUSE we are already saved, ,not to GET saved.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
And we do the "works of God" IN Christ Jesus our Lord. We do them BECAUSE we are already saved, ,not to GET saved.

The Biblical testimony presents problems with that approach:

Matthew 7:19-21---King James Version
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

How do you explain that?
 
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