World Leaders Must Be Infallible Also

So are you suggesting that this decision is not
So are you suggesting that this decision is not infallible and that the Pope is wrong?

You are the one who believes he's infallible but if you say that he's only infallible some of the time then you have to admit he could be wrong. In other words you have to admit that he's not infallible. So tell me - is his recent decision to accept homosexual relationships infallible or not? This is your opportunity to say the Pope is wrong. But in the end it by boils down to two possibilities - either the Pope is right and God is wrong, or God Is Right and your pope is wrong. What's your position on that? Of course it means in the end that if the Pope is right then he knows better than God.

No pope is impeccable, without personal sin. And it's nothing new to those who are familiar with Pope Francis. To safeguard the sanctity of marriage, he has been in support of civil-unions for years.
 

Hibernian

Well-known member
No pope is impeccable, without personal sin. And it's nothing new to those who are familiar with Pope Francis. To safeguard the sanctity of marriage, he has been in support of civil-unions for years.


Why are you telling me this? We all know that the Pope is a normal guy the same as everybody else.

The Pope claims to represent God. God regards homosexuality as an abomination, yet the Pope agrees with civil unions between homosexuals, therefore your pope cannot be correct because if he is then God is wrong.

So you have to decide whether or not the Pope is infallible on this issue. I reckon you're scared to say he's not, even though the reality of the issue is that the Pope isn't, never was and never will be infallible. And of course if I know that God is infallible then I don't need your Pope.

But the true reality is that your pope is
not clever, because what he says contradicts God. Of course you don't want to bring God into this issue because you know that God contradicts your Pope.
 

Hibernian

Well-known member
So you are ignorant of the Catholic understanding of infallibility? You're on a Roman Catholic forum. I would like to know if you know what we believe about these things. Wouldn't that be expected? You don't have to be a Roman Catholic to know what we believe about certain issues. Why are you acting defensive?
I asked you a simple question. Is this decision regarding homosexual couples infallible or not?

I am Suggesting that it's not infallible because it is exactly the opposite of what God himself has already declared. And if I already know what God has declared why would I need the Pope to tell me anyway? And even if he does decide to tell me why does he prove himself wrong by telling me exactly the opposite?

The Pope has the book of Romans open in front of him the same as me so he doesn't need infallibility no more than you or I in order to determine the reality.

Let's say that the Pope accepts that the book of Romans is canon and at the same time he disagrees with me when I quote it, which is exactly the same as saying that he disagrees with St. Paul.

You see in the end Roman Catholicism is the religion of the Pope. It's not the religion of God or of Jesus Christ
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
In recent world political history the Pope is not the only one who now agrees with civil unions for homosexual couples. Who followed Who? Have world leaders followed the infallible Pope or has the Pope followed fallible world leaders? Of course, in fairness to world leaders, they are not claiming to speak from God, so if they are wrong then the pope is wrong also. But of course the pope always has an unfair advantage because he's not running a secular state according to himself, but a theocracy whereby his declarations are really the work of the Holy Spirit. So can we now say that world leaders are also inspired by God? But more importantly, can we now say that God agrees with civil unions for homosexual couples, because if we can't where does that leave the Pope? And of course if world leaders can decide what God has determined this also means that we don't need the Pope because we can depend on world leaders.

God's Declaration remains -

*You shall not lie with a man as with a woman.*


Who is on the Lord's side? I am with the Holy Bible.
Where did Pope Francis declare infallibly that God agrees with civil unions for homosexual couples?
 

Hibernian

Well-known member
Where did Pope Francis declare infallibly that God agrees with civil unions for homosexual couples?
I never said he did. But even if he did say it was infallible that would also be an infallible declaration because papal infallibility is also infallible.

I am asking if this declaration is infallible or not, because the decision made by the Pope is an immoral decision not a moral one and it defies what God originally declared and the fact that God originally declared it means that we don't need your Pope to declare it because we already know what God said. So it's not only a question of the fact that the Pope has declared the opposite to what God has declared but also the fact that because God declared it we don't need to listen to your Pope.

I'm wondering why individual human beings, not just individual Roman Catholics, cannot make up their own minds about this, so rather than deciding for themselves they end up agreeing with the Pope.

So why are homosexual relationships wrong?

Because they are morally wrong and because God disagrees with them or correct because the pope contradicts God?

So God was wrong all along and he needed he needed the Pope to correct him?
 

Hibernian

Well-known member
I was asking you if you thought the pope was infallible in this context since the word is in the OP that YOU made.
You are the ones who believe that the Pope is infallible. Why would I believe the Pope is infallible? I am not a Roman Catholic.

You tell me if you think that a declaration which states the exact opposite of what God declares could possibly be infallible?
 

Hibernian

Well-known member
No pope is impeccable, without personal sin. And it's nothing new to those who are familiar with Pope Francis. To safeguard the sanctity of marriage, he has been in support of civil-unions for years.
We are not talking about marriage. This this thread is about homosexual unions, not marriage.
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
I never said he did. But even if he did say it was infallible that would also be an infallible declaration because papal infallibility is also infallible.
???
I am asking if this declaration is infallible or not, because the decision made by the Pope is an immoral decision not a moral one and it defies what God originally declared and the fact that God originally declared it means that we don't need your Pope to declare it because we already know what God said. So it's not only a question of the fact that the Pope has declared the opposite to what God has declared but also the fact that because God declared it we don't need to listen to your Pope.
It's obviously not an infallible declaration, for lots of reasons, the most obvious being it's an extract from an interview in a documentary, not an official teaching of any kind! It's like taking an extract from an interview where the President of the US says war could be declared with Russia, and saying that is an official declaration of war with Russia.

If Pope Francis believes that civil unions should be legally permitted, then he would be wrong. It does need refinement though, for it's one thing to say a secular state should permit civil unions to protect people and another to say that the Church should approve of such things.
I'm wondering why individual human beings, not just individual Roman Catholics, cannot make up their own minds about this, so rather than deciding for themselves they end up agreeing with the Pope.
Yes, they can make up their own minds.
So why are homosexual relationships wrong?

Because they are morally wrong and because God disagrees with them or correct because the pope contradicts God?

So God was wrong all along and he needed he needed the Pope to correct him?
No, if Pope Francis believes homosexual relationships are okay - and that isn't the same thing as saying secular states should have civil union laws - then he's wrong.
 

Hibernian

Well-known member
???

It's obviously not an infallible declaration, for lots of reasons, the most obvious being it's an extract from an interview in a documentary, not an official teaching of any kind! It's like taking an extract from an interview where the President of the US says war could be declared with Russia, and saying that is an official declaration of war with Russia.

If Pope Francis believes that civil unions should be legally permitted, then he would be wrong. It does need refinement though, for it's one thing to say a secular state should permit civil unions to protect people and another to say that the Church should approve of such things.

Yes, they can make up their own minds.

No, if Pope Francis believes homosexual relationships are okay - and that isn't the same thing as saying secular states should have civil union laws - then he's wrong.
That is not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is if the Pope is wrong then world leaders are wrong also and if world leaders are wrong then the Pope is wrong also and also the Pope is wrong anyway because God says the opposite so the Pope can still judge correctly even if he's not infallible. But he has judged wrongly anyway.

As stated in the OP the Pope is a person who claims to speak for God as distinct from world leaders who don't have to make that claim and because the Pope claims to speak for God there is no reason why he should be wrong if he declares the same as God but this is not what he has done; he has in fact declared the opposite
 
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Hibernian

Well-known member
???

It's obviously not an infallible declaration, for lots of reasons, the most obvious being it's an extract from an interview in a documentary, not an official teaching of any kind! It's like taking an extract from an interview where the President of the US says war could be declared with Russia, and saying that is an official declaration of war with Russia.

If Pope Francis believes that civil unions should be legally permitted, then he would be wrong. It does need refinement though, for it's one thing to say a secular state should permit civil unions to protect people and another to say that the Church should approve of such things.

Yes, they can make up their own minds.

No, if Pope Francis believes homosexual relationships are okay - and that isn't the same thing as saying secular states should have civil union laws - then he's wrong.
Then it is clear that Pope Francis does not agree with God
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
That is not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is if the Pope is wrong then world leaders are wrong also and if world leaders are wrong then the Pope is wrong also and also the Pope is wrong anyway because God says the opposite so the Pope can still judge correctly even if he's not infallible. But he has judged wrongly anyway.
Okay, the pope could be wrong on this point.
As stated in the OP the Pope is a person who claims to speak for God as distinct from world leaders who don't have to make that claim and because the Pope claims to speak for God there is no reason why he should be wrong if he declares the same as God but this is not what he has done; he has in fact declared the opposite
The pope doesn't claim to speak for God, that's not what infallibility means.
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
Then it is clear that Pope Francis does not agree with God
In what respect? Pope Francis certainly thinks homosexual actions are sinful and is against "same-sex marriage". If the interview is accurate - and it's very brief - he seems to support civil union law. Would he be wrong in that? I think so; however, that is only one aspect of the issue.
 

Hibernian

Well-known member
I was not defining infallibility.
Okay, the pope could be wrong on this point.

The pope doesn't claim to speak for God, that's not what infallibility means.
The Pope is the leader of the Roman Catholic Church. You cannot say that he doesn't speak for God because if he doesn't speak for God then his infallible statements are not true either
 

Hibernian

Well-known member
In what respect? Pope Francis certainly thinks homosexual actions are sinful and is against "same-sex marriage". If the interview is accurate - and it's very brief - he seems to support civil union law. Would he be wrong in that? I think so; however, that is only one aspect of the issue.
Pope Francis disagrees with God because in the Bible that I have quoted here on this thread God declares the opposite to Pope Francis because God does not agree with homosexuality.

In reality this is the Pope versus God, and you can choose.
 

RayneBeau

Well-known member
In recent world political history the Pope is not the only one who now agrees with civil unions for homosexual couples. Who followed Who? Have world leaders followed the infallible Pope or has the Pope followed fallible world leaders? Of course, in fairness to world leaders, they are not claiming to speak from God, so if they are wrong then the pope is wrong also. But of course the pope always has an unfair advantage because he's not running a secular state according to himself, but a theocracy whereby his declarations are really the work of the Holy Spirit. So can we now say that world leaders are also inspired by God? But more importantly, can we now say that God agrees with civil unions for homosexual couples, because if we can't where does that leave the Pope? And of course if world leaders can decide what God has determined this also means that we don't need the Pope because we can depend on world leaders.

God's Declaration remains -

*You shall not lie with a man as with a woman.*


Who is on the Lord's side? I am with the Holy Bible.
Well, not only is the Roman Catholic Church administered by the "Vicar of Christ" (a vicarious Jesus), they also profess to be the sole dwelling place of the third person of the Holy Trinity - aka the Holy Spirit. Now, this indwelling, according to the Roman Catholic catechists of course, safeguards the Roman Catholic Church from error so that Roman Catholic tradition remains on an equal footing with the Old and New Testaments, and that the pronouncements of the Roman Catholic popes are just as efficacious as the gospels, and as binding as the 10 Commandments. But, even so, with knowing this RCC teaching, we are still right back at the original question of: "Who followed who"? :unsure:
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
I was not defining infallibility.
The Pope is the leader of the Roman Catholic Church. You cannot say that he doesn't speak for God because if he doesn't speak for God then his infallible statements are not true either
Being the leader of the Catholic Church doesn't mean you speak for God, that's not what his role is. An infallible statement doesn't mean you speak for God either - it just means that, when pronounced, it cannot be wrong.

For instance, here's an infallible statement: "A bachelor is an unmarried man." I can say that without speaking for God.
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
The pope COULD be wrong? In spite of the fact that God declares the opposite
Where does God declare that secular states should not have civil union laws?

We need to be careful to distinguish between moral and legal pronouncements, especially in the secular state the world is in today. For instance, it is immoral to lie and God does not want us to lie; however, if a religious leader said we should therefore outlaw lying I would heartily disagree.

In the instance of civil unions, I don't think it's a good idea to legalise them even in a secular state because they seem to be marriage under a different name. However, it might be a matter of honest debate among Christians, I'm not sure.
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
Pope Francis disagrees with God because in the Bible that I have quoted here on this thread God declares the opposite to Pope Francis because God does not agree with homosexuality.

In reality this is the Pope versus God, and you can choose.
Where does Pope Francis agree with homosexual actions? Can you quote something where he says they are fine?

And again, we need to distinguish between moral actions and the law.
 
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