Would Waite agree with co-founder of his Dean Burgon Society?

Steven Avery

Well-known member
Here is a bit more confirming the Greek Bible of Chrysostom:

Homilies on the Gospel of John, Book XV, John 1:18:
https://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf114.iv.xvii.html

And wonder not that Paul saith in another place, "God was manifested in the Flesh"; because the manifestation took place by means of the flesh, not according to (His) Essence. Besides, Paul shows that He is invisible, not only to men, but also to the powers above, for after saying, "was manifested in the Flesh," he adds, "was seen of angels."

The third spot is said to be:

De beato Philogonio, 3 (48.753)
 
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cjab

Well-known member
Right, just to confuse the issue you skipped over the part where Chrysostom was quoting from the Bible and clearly had:

"God was manifest in the flesh.."

in his Bible text.

Homily 11
https://books.google.com/books?id=gT1MAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA87



Clear as day.
You never engaged with my argument. Chrysostom was engaging in doctrines that were plainly extra-biblical: he was unsophisticated enough to say that "God became man" which isn't found in the bible, in the gospel of John, in the epistles of Paul, and never on the lips of Jesus.
Rather Jesus is the "Holy One of God." Mk 1:24, and "descended from God."

Given this, Chrysostom is not a reliable witness to what 1 Tim 3:16 says. As I pointed out, "God was manifest in the flesh" doesn't demand any such doctrine as "God became Man." So I see Chrysostom as engaging in heretical teaching, quite apart from his 1 Tim 3:16, and which therefore invalidates his 1 Tim 3:16 reference. Also, a separate point is that we can't be sure that the text of his homily hasn't been subsequently modified by later copyists, who would have had every reason to modify it.

Chrysostom reflects the Hard Trinitarian ascetic branch of the church - Chrysostom was a notorious ascetic - and which relfects what was going on in North Africa also, where novel High Trinitarian doctrines were being divised and promoted by the heretical ascetic branch of the church, which graded godliness by marital state, leading eventually to the invented Johannine Comma. I see Chrysostom's 1 Tim 3:16 as the Greek equivalent of the Latin 1 John 5:7. It is axiomatic that "God the Father did not become Man" unless you're a Sabellian. Such is the essential heresy of High Trinitarianism.
 
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Steven Avery

Well-known member
Given this, Chrysostom is not a reliable witness to what 1 Tim 3:16 says. As I pointed out, "God was manifest in the flesh" doesn't demand any such doctrine as "God became Man." So I see Chrysostom as engaging in heretical teaching, quite apart from his 1 Tim 3:16,

Start with the basics:
Are you acknowledging that the two quotes of Chrysostom show that his Bible had at 1 Timothy 3:16:

“God was manifest in the flesh”

They really are crystal clear.
After that acknowledgement , we can discuss his interpretation.

There is no extralegal surprise here, since 99% of our extant Greek mss. Have that text.
 

Steven Avery

Well-known member
I tend to get the impression that ὅς ==> theos was a deliberate Trinitarian mutation in the heady days of hard Trinitarianism during the reign of Theodosius I in the latter part of the 4th century.

You might want to familiarize yourself with the references given by Berend de Boer, building on John Burgon, your theory requires a massive change in the ECW evidences immediately, beyond flipping the Greek mss.

1 Timothy 3:16 as cited by Church Fathers
Berend de Boer
https://www.berenddeboer.net/article/1_timothy_3_16.html
 

cjab

Well-known member
Start with the basics:
Are you acknowledging that the two quotes of Chrysostom show that his Bible had at 1 Timothy 3:16:

“God was manifest in the flesh”
Let me introduce some cribbed facts:

There are three different versions of this particular verse in the manuscripts.​
The majority of manuscripts, as well as the Greek text that is used in the New Testament Greek churches today, read:​
Θεὸς ἐφανερώθη ἐν σαρκί,​
ἐδικαιώθη ἐν Πνεύματι,​
ὤφθη  γγέλοις,​
ἐκηρύχθη ἐν ἔθνεσιν,​
ἐπιστεύθη ἐν κόσμῳ,​
νελήφθη ἐν δόξῃ.​
God was revealed in the flesh,
vindicated in [the] spirit, seen by angels,
preached among the nations,
believed on in the world,
and received up in glory.
(EOB:NT)​
In the Sinaiticus (4th c.), Alexandrinus (5th c.), Ephraimi (5th c.), Augiensis (9th c.), and Boernerianus (9th c.) codices, the relative pronoun ὅς takes the place of Θεὸς. The NASB editors and (presumably) others have chosen this particular reading over the majority reading.​
In his Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament (2nd ed.), Bruce Metzger explains the presence of Θεὸς in some manuscripts as being due to either transcription error or deliberately for stylistic reasons:​
Thus, no uncial (in the first hand) earlier than the eighth or ninth century (Ψ) [Athous Lavrensis] supports θεός; all ancient versions presuppose ὅς or ὅ; and no patristic writer prior to the last third of the fourth century testifies to the reading θεός. The reading θεός arose either (a) accidentally, through the misreading of OΣ [the pronoun] as ΘΣ [abbreviation for θεός], or (b) deliberately, either to supply a substantive for the following six verbs, or, with less probability, to provide greater dogmatic precision.​
p. 574​
Among the Greek Church Fathers who cited this particular passage are Gregory of Nyssa (335-394 AD), John Chyrsostom (347-407 AD). The oldest Codex which Metzger cites is the Sinaiticus, which scholars date to between 330 and 360 AD. Thus, it is arguable which of the witnesses is more historical.​

_______________________

I concede that many Trinitarians assert Alexandrinus contains the "God" rendition, but many say it was retouched. It's very strange that Woide, who edited this Codex in 1785, remarked that he had seen traces of the original stroke in 1765 which had ceased to be clearly visible twenty years later. How inconvenient is that? The "original stroke" is likely to have involved a retouching, as per Sinaiticus. Moreover, if the "original stroke" was so faded, as constrasted with the rest of the Alexandrinus text, isn't it likely to have been not contemporaneous with the original text?

One of two things is most likely here. Either the hyper Trinitarians, Gregory of Nyssa, John Chyrsostom & the Cappadocian Fathers generally, all devoted stalwarts of High Trinitarianism, themselves contributed to "God was manifest in the flesh" interpretation, and thereby influenced an amendment to the existing biblical texts, or later copyists amended their quotations to conform with the Byzantine text rendition.

Personally I credit the former, given the witness of Severian who would not have done other than quote the bible literally. Such would have been unthinkable for him. The change to the text seems to have happened concomitantly with the reinvigoration of the Nicene Creed by Theodosius in 4th century. But it was localized in the Greek, initially. For "almost all of the ancient non-Greek versions appear to read “who” or “which” instead of “God” in this passage: namely, the Old Latin, Latin Vulgate, Coptic, Peshitta-Syriac, Gothic, Armenian and Ethiopic translations." [source]

They really are crystal clear.
After that acknowledgement , we can discuss his interpretation.
Sure the words are crystal clear in the homily as handed down.

There is no extralegal surprise here, since 99% of our extant Greek mss. Have that text.
Now I can see why you don't like Sinaiticus: it's the only really old Greek biblical manuscript with Ὃς.
 
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Steven Avery

Well-known member
Personally I credit the former, given the witness of Severian who would not have done other than quote the bible literally. Such would have been unthinkable for him.

A lot of heavy lifting for one writer, whose native tongue was Syriac, against all the native Greek speakers who lived at his time, or earlier. And he does not have your preferred reading anyway.

Plus Severian has multiple references to 1 Timothy 3:16 in:
Fraginenta in epistulas s. Pauli. Ed. Karl Staab. Paulus kommentare aus der griechischen Kirche (Münster i. W., 1933), 213-391

So those would be needed for a clearer picture of his text.
 
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cjab

Well-known member
That would favor "God".

e.g. LaParola has
Apollinaris Diodore Gregory-Nyssa Didymus-dub Chrysostom Ps-Dionysius Euthalius Theodoret

And there are many more.
But this is a kind of gish-gallop à la Burgon.

"Burgon makes use of patristic passages that are little more than general references to Jesus’ incarnation and implies that they are early patristic quotations of 1 Tim 3:16." [source]​

How do we know that the passages are authentic, and actual references to 1 Tim 3:16?
 

cjab

Well-known member
A lot of heavy lifting for one writer, whose native tongue was Syriac, against all the native Greek speakers who lived at his time, or earlier. And he does not have your preferred reading anyway.

Plus Severian has multiple references to 1 Timothy 3:16 in:
Fraginenta in epistulas s. Pauli. Ed. Karl Staab. Paulus kommentare aus der griechischen Kirche (Münster i. W., 1933), 213-391

So those would be needed for a clearer picture of his text.
The question is what is the natural subject of 1 Tim 3:16. Is it "Jesus" or is it "God"? It seems to be Jesus. It was Jesus who was preached on in the world and manifested in the flesh &etc. If we didn't know what the subject was, we would certainly infer Jesus. And Severian's extensive usage of "he" is all these passages seems always to refer to Jesus.

I John 4;3 "And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world."

The idea that "God came in the flesh" doesn't appear to be part of apostolic teaching.
 
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Steven Avery

Well-known member
And Severian's extensive usage of "he" is all these passages seems always to refer to Jesus.

The text you quoted from Severian did not have “he” as the subject. He used a text we both consider wrong, and wrong text leads to wrong interpretation.
 

Steven Avery

Well-known member
The question is what is the natural subject of 1 Tim 3:16. Is it "Jesus" or is it "God"? It seems to be Jesus.

For the Received Tex clearly God.

For the critical text solecism there are about five alternatives, Do you have any early Greek writers who use the critical text relative pronoun?
 

cjab

Well-known member
The text you quoted from Severian did not have “he” as the subject. He used a text we both consider wrong, and wrong text leads to wrong interpretation.
Yes, Severian's neuter gendered ὅ aligns with the gender of the word "mystery". It is possible that the male gendered Ὃς found in Sinaiticus is a constructio ad sensum gender, reflecting the gender of he who is the mystery, i.e. Christ.

The use of the neuter gender by Severian isn't problematic. Children are also defined by neuter Greek words. Sometime the neuter is retained, sometimes a constructio ad sensum gender is applied to reflect their actual sex. You can see this in the bible with baby Jesus.

So I wouldn't exclude Severian as referring to Jesus, if Jesus is the true identity of the mystery of godliness.
 

cjab

Well-known member
For the Received Tex clearly God.

For the critical text solecism there are about five alternatives, Do you have any early Greek writers who use the critical text relative pronoun?
The change-over to the Byzantine text seems to have been complete amongst "orthodox"Greek writers by the end of the 4th century, coinciding with the Theodosian drive to enforce the Nicene Creed on the Empire. You can see how the change arose. Hippolytus and others began refering to Jesus/Logos as God the Word, and so "The Logos became flesh" quickly got mutated into "God the Word became flesh" ==> God became flesh.

In addition to Sinaiticus and Severian deferring to the ante-Trinitarian text, there is the very informative Epistle of Barnabas, which talks a lot about "he who was manifested in the flesh" but never says "God was manifested in the flesh." Rather "the son of God" was manifested in the flesh.

You can see a useful summary of these, including relevant parts of the epistle of Barnabas, here.
 

Steven Avery

Well-known member
Yes, Severian's neuter gendered ὅ aligns with the gender of the word "mystery". ....
So I wouldn't exclude Severian as referring to Jesus, if Jesus is the true identity of the mystery of godliness.

You have moved away from a positive assertion to a vague possibility, asserted by no one.
 

Steven Avery

Well-known member
Improper correction hundreds of years after the text was first written. You mean "unfaded" ink. I think the unfaded ink, and the line through the nomina sacra, rather than above it, shows it is much later than the rest of the text. Kirsopp Lake etc assign this and a few other corrections very late - the latest of all the corrections, even to the medieval period, circa 12th century (Corrector E).

Actually it is a bright black ink.

Why would you say it was "12th century" rather than 19th century?

There were surely various hands on the manuscript c. 1850.
Why would you claim they did not put on those corrections?
 

Steven Avery

Well-known member
Here are three that are the same hand in the New Testament and likely the one in the Old Testament.
All super-ink.

1696205591101.png

So how would you determine if these are medieval or 1800s?
 

cjab

Well-known member
You have moved away from a positive assertion to a vague possibility, asserted by no one.
Not a vague possibility, but a grammatical inevitability. Severian can only be alluding to the "mystery" by his use of the neuter gender.
 
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