Yes or No (or It's Complicated)

No and no. One should not make an accusation without explaining it.
You made reference to Isa 9:6, Matthew 6:10 and Jesus. There is zero connection with Jesus as the Eternal Father. Surely you understand that. That's not an accusation, oldsheperd.

How does the JPS render Isaiah 9:6? Have you seen the footnote for it? Here it is:

That is, Wonderful in counsel is God, the Mighty, the Everlasting Father, the Ruler of peace.

Jesus doesn't fulfill any of this. Never will.
 
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You made reference to Isa 9:6, Matthew 6:10 and Jesus. There is zero connection with Jesus as the Eternal Father. Surely you understand that. That's not an accusation, oldsheperd.

How does the JPS render Isaiah 9:6? Have you seen the footnote for it? Here it is:

That is, Wonderful in counsel is God, the Mighty, the Everlasting Father, the Ruler of peace.

Jesus doesn't fulfill any of this. Never will.
The Qumran Isaiah Scroll says your wrong as the JPS
5) Because a child shall be born to us and a son is given to us and the government shall be upon
24. his shoulders and he shall be called wonderful, counsellor, mighty God, everlasting father the prince of peace. (6) Of the increase
25. of his government [&waw&} and his peace there shall be no end. upon the throne of David and over his kingdom to order it and to establish it
26. in judgement and in righteousness from and until eternity, The zeal of YHWH of Hosts will perform this.
 
The Qumran Isaiah Scroll says your wrong as the JPS
5) Because a child shall be born to us and a son is given to us and the government shall be upon
24. his shoulders and he shall be called wonderful, counsellor, mighty God, everlasting father the prince of peace. (6) Of the increase
25. of his government [&waw&} and his peace there shall be no end. upon the throne of David and over his kingdom to order it and to establish it
26. in judgement and in righteousness from and until eternity, The zeal of YHWH of Hosts will perform t

The Qumran Isaiah Scroll says your wrong as the JPS
5) Because a child shall be born to us and a son is given to us and the government shall be upon
24. his shoulders and he shall be called wonderful, counsellor, mighty God, everlasting father the prince of peace. (6) Of the increase
25. of his government [&waw&} and his peace there shall be no end. upon the throne of David and over his kingdom to order it and to establish it
26. in judgement and in righteousness from and until eternity, The zeal of YHWH of Hosts will perform this.
I just gave you the JPS scholars notes, not mine. Oldsheperd referenced them as a competent opinion.

Your reference to the DSS changes nothing. Jesus is referenced nowhere as the Eternal Father.

Does the DSS Hebrew contain grammar marks?
 
You made reference to Isa 9:6, Matthew 6:10 and Jesus. There is zero connection with Jesus as the Eternal Father. Surely you understand that. That's not an accusation, oldsheperd.
How does the JPS render Isaiah 9:6? Have you seen the footnote for it? Here it is:
That is, Wonderful in counsel is God, the Mighty, the Everlasting Father, the Ruler of peace.
Jesus doesn't fulfill any of this. Never will.
I appreciate you sharing your opinion with us.
You made reference to Isa 9:6, Matthew 6:10 and Jesus. There is zero connection with Jesus as the Eternal Father. Surely you understand that. That's not an accusation, oldsheperd.
How does the JPS render Isaiah 9:6? Have you seen the footnote for it? Here it is:
That is, Wonderful in counsel is God, the Mighty, the Everlasting Father, the Ruler of peace.
Jesus doesn't fulfill any of this. Never will.
That must be the new anti-Christian JPS. The 1917 edition transliterates Is 9:6 Pele- joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom; It was so troublesome to them they wouldn't even translate it.
In the OT "gibbor" referring to "el" occurs 4 times. Of these Deut 10:17, Isa 10:24 and Jer 32:18 clearly refer to YHWH. The 4th one is Isa 9:6 and it clearly refers to the son despite the new JPS..
FYI here is the translation from the pre-Christian era Targum.
Isa 9:6 The prophet said to the house of David, For unto us a Child is bom, unto us a Son is given, and He has taken the law upon Himself to keep it.*His name is called from eternity. Wonderful, The Mighty God, who lives to eternity, The Messiah, whose peace shall be great upon us in His days.​
 
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I appreciate you sharing your opinion with us.

That must be the new anti-Christian JPS. The 1917 edition transliterates Is 9:6 Pele- joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom; It was so troublesome to them they wouldn't even translate it.
In the OT "gibbor" referring to "el" occurs 4 times. Of these Deut 10:17, Isa 10:24 and Jer 32:18 clearly refer to YHWH. The 4th one is Isa 9:6 and it clearly refers to the son despite the new JPS..
FYI here is the translation from the pre-Christian era Targum.

Isa 9:6 The prophet said to the house of David, For unto us a Child is bom, unto us a Son is given, and He has taken the law upon Himself to keep it.*His name is called from eternity. Wonderful, The Mighty God, who lives to eternity, The Messiah, whose peace shall be great upon us in His days.
Actually, its in the JPS footnote. Its funny how you reference it as scholarly, and then toss it aside when it doesn't support you. What a shame.

Do you like the JPS 1917 translation for Isa 7:14? It's scholarly, right?

Many names in Tanakh have the word "el" without anyone misunderstanding that the human is non-divine. Elijah, Daniel, Michael, Elisha, etc. They all must be God, right?

What's interesting is that the Messiah keeps the law. Teaching others to keep it as well is part of that.

What Messiah do you follow? Jesus brought zero world peace. You should wait for another.
 
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Actually, its in the JPS footnote. Its funny how you reference it as scholarly, and then toss it aside when it doesn't support you. What a shame.
Do you like the JPS 1917 translation for Isa 7:14? It's scholarly, right?
Many names in Tanakh have the word "el" without anyone misunderstanding that the human is non-divine. Elijah, Daniel, Michael, Elisha, etc. They all must be God, right?
What's interesting is that the Messiah keeps the law. Teaching others to keep it as well is part of that.
What Messiah do you follow? Jesus brought zero world peace. You should wait for another.
It would appear that those footnotes are not original but were added later.
I would say the the Tagum takes precedence of over a later translation, it does not have the anti-Christian bias.
Your smoke screen about "el" is meaningless. As I said "el" referring to "gibbor" occurs only 4 times in the T'nakh the first three refer to YHWH. Does the 4th one refer to someone else? Hmmm? Tell us about the Mashiah ben Yosef and Mashiah ben David?
 
Actually, its in the JPS footnote. Its funny how you reference it as scholarly, and then toss it aside when it doesn't support you. What a shame.

Do you like the JPS 1917 translation for Isa 7:14? It's scholarly, right?

Many names in Tanakh have the word "el" without anyone misunderstanding that the human is non-divine. Elijah, Daniel, Michael, Elisha, etc. They all must be God, right?

What's interesting is that the Messiah keeps the law. Teaching others to keep it as well is part of that.

What Messiah do you follow? Jesus brought zero world peace. You should wait for

The prophets say that the Messiah will initiate an era of world peace during which “the wolf will dwell with the lamb” and the nations will hammer their swords into plowshares. “Nation will not lift up sword against nation, and never again will they learn war” (Isaiah 2:4). Therefore, the disciples could have reasonably expected that the Messiah came to deliver peace to the earth. Even the angels that announced His birth declared “on earth peace among men!” (Luke 2:14). If the nation had given heed to the good news of the kingdom and repented under the teaching of Yeshua, surely He would have ushered in that era of peace.

The same prophets who spoke about the coming era of peace, however, also predicted a time of trouble, conflict, tribulation, and warfare that would precede the advent of the kingdom. Zechariah says that, in that day, all the nations will gather against Jerusalem to make war on the holy people and the holy city. Our Master alluded to the exile and the wars of Messiah that precede the Messianic Era when He told His disciples, “Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.”

In the Hebrew Scriptures, the word “sword” is a common Hebrew idiom for violence or destruction. This is especially common in contrast with peace (shalom). Leviticus describes the promises of covenant faithfulness by saying, “I will give peace in the land … and the sword shall not go through your land” (Leviticus 26:6). In other words, the land will not experience violence and destruction.

When the prophet Jeremiah was warned about the destruction of Jerusalem, he responded, “Ah, Lord GOD! Surely You have utterly deceived this people and Jerusalem, saying, ‘You will have peace’; whereas a sword touches the throat” (Jeremiah 4:10 NASB). Here, the “sword” that Jeremiah contrasts with peace is the coming destruction of the city.

The Master referred to the coming time of punishment, the detruction of Jerusalem, and the doom of exile that hung over his generation if they did not repent. When the Master said, “Do not think that I came to bring peace,” He was not referring to His incarnation or arrival from heaven. The expression “I came to …” functions idiomatically in Hebrew to express purpose or intention.

He has made My mouth like a sharp sword. (Isaiah 49:2)

Out of His mouth came a sharp two-edged sword. (Revelation 1:16)

Yeshua explained to His disciples that families were destined to divide and split over the sharp blade of the Messiah’s sword.

Do you suppose that I came to grant peace on earth? I tell you, no, but rather division; for from now on five members in one household will be divided, three against two and two against three. They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law. (Luke 12:52-53)

The prophets spoke of a season of refining and judgment that must fall upon Israel at the time of the Messiah’s coming. For example, Malachi says, “Who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner’s fire and like fullers’ soap. He will sit as a smelter and purifier of silver” (3:2-3). “Behold, this Child is appointed for the fall and rise of many in Israel, and for a sign to be opposed—and a sword will pierce even your own soul—to the end that thoughts from many hearts may be revealed” (Luke 2:34-35).

The Master’s words quote an important prophecy from Micah:

For son treats father contemptuously, daughter rises up against her mother, daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; a man's enemies are the men of his own household. (Micah 7:6)

Rabbi Yeshua interpreted this prophecy to predict a breakdown of the family unit in the end of days, just before the final redemption. The rabbis and sages in the Talmud also read the same prophecy as a prediction about the last generation before Messiah:

With the footsteps of Messiah, impertinence increases and famine increases … Truth will be sealed away, children will shame elders, and elders will rise before children, as it says [in Micah 7:6], “For son treats father contemptuously, daughter rises up against her mother, daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; a man’s enemies are the men of his own household.” (m.Sotah 9:15)
 
It would appear that those footnotes are not original but were added later.
I would say the the Tagum takes precedence of over a later translation, it does not have the anti-Christian bias.
Your smoke screen about "el" is meaningless. As I said "el" referring to "gibbor" occurs only 4 times in the T'nakh the first three refer to YHWH. Does the 4th one refer to someone else? Hmmm? Tell us about the Mashiah ben Yosef and Mashiah ben David?
I would say Isaiah 7:14 says a young woman, not virgin gives birth, based on the JPS scholars. The footnotes were given on biblehub. So any bias would be theirs.



As I said, the word "el" is used of many in their names. Are they all divine? No. So, your unwillingness to admit the relevance is your bias.

Does Jesus keep and teach others in the observance of Torah? No ?. And that came from the Targum. So, he is not the subject of the context.

If you can tell me of the relevance of Mashiah ben Yosef or David, I don't mind discussing it.
 
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The prophets say that the Messiah will initiate an era of world peace during which “the wolf will dwell with the lamb” and the nations will hammer their swords into plowshares. “Nation will not lift up sword against nation, and never again will they learn war” (Isaiah 2:4). Therefore, the disciples could have reasonably expected that the Messiah came to deliver peace to the earth. Even the angels that announced His birth declared “on earth peace among men!” (Luke 2:14). If the nation had given heed to the good news of the kingdom and repented under the teaching of Yeshua, surely He would have ushered in that era of peace.

The same prophets who spoke about the coming era of peace, however, also predicted a time of trouble, conflict, tribulation, and warfare that would precede the advent of the kingdom. Zechariah says that, in that day, all the nations will gather against Jerusalem to make war on the holy people and the holy city. Our Master alluded to the exile and the wars of Messiah that precede the Messianic Era when He told His disciples, “Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.”

In the Hebrew Scriptures, the word “sword” is a common Hebrew idiom for violence or destruction. This is especially common in contrast with peace (shalom). Leviticus describes the promises of covenant faithfulness by saying, “I will give peace in the land … and the sword shall not go through your land” (Leviticus 26:6). In other words, the land will not experience violence and destruction.

When the prophet Jeremiah was warned about the destruction of Jerusalem, he responded, “Ah, Lord GOD! Surely You have utterly deceived this people and Jerusalem, saying, ‘You will have peace’; whereas a sword touches the throat” (Jeremiah 4:10 NASB). Here, the “sword” that Jeremiah contrasts with peace is the coming destruction of the city.

The Master referred to the coming time of punishment, the detruction of Jerusalem, and the doom of exile that hung over his generation if they did not repent. When the Master said, “Do not think that I came to bring peace,” He was not referring to His incarnation or arrival from heaven. The expression “I came to …” functions idiomatically in Hebrew to express purpose or intention.

He has made My mouth like a sharp sword. (Isaiah 49:2)

Out of His mouth came a sharp two-edged sword. (Revelation 1:16)

Yeshua explained to His disciples that families were destined to divide and split over the sharp blade of the Messiah’s sword.

Do you suppose that I came to grant peace on earth? I tell you, no, but rather division; for from now on five members in one household will be divided, three against two and two against three. They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law. (Luke 12:52-53)

The prophets spoke of a season of refining and judgment that must fall upon Israel at the time of the Messiah’s coming. For example, Malachi says, “Who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner’s fire and like fullers’ soap. He will sit as a smelter and purifier of silver” (3:2-3). “Behold, this Child is appointed for the fall and rise of many in Israel, and for a sign to be opposed—and a sword will pierce even your own soul—to the end that thoughts from many hearts may be revealed” (Luke 2:34-35).

The Master’s words quote an important prophecy from Micah:

For son treats father contemptuously, daughter rises up against her mother, daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; a man's enemies are the men of his own household. (Micah 7:6)

Rabbi Yeshua interpreted this prophecy to predict a breakdown of the family unit in the end of days, just before the final redemption. The rabbis and sages in the Talmud also read the same prophecy as a prediction about the last generation before Messiah:

With the footsteps of Messiah, impertinence increases and famine increases … Truth will be sealed away, children will shame elders, and elders will rise before children, as it says [in Micah 7:6], “For son treats father contemptuously, daughter rises up against her mother, daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; a man’s enemies are the men of his own household.” (m.Sotah 9:15)
Jesus didn't initiate world peace or a world wide knowledge of God. So, I await another.
 
I would say Isaiah 7:14 says a young woman, not virgin gives birth, based on the JPS scholars.
As I said, the word "el" is used of many in their names. Are they all divine? No.
Does Jesus keep and teach others in the observance of Torah? No ?. So, he is not the subject of the context.
If you can tell of the relevance of Mashiah ben Yosef or David, I don't mind discussing it.
The short version is the Jewish scholars conjured up two mashiahs to account for the the suffering servant mashiah and the conquering king mashiah.
As I said your "el" argument is irrelevant. Prove me wrong about "el Gibbor."
Have you ever read the New Testament? Jesus never told anyone to not observe Torah and He observed Torah Himself.
 
The short version is the Jewish scholars conjured up two mashiahs to account for the the suffering servant mashiah and the conquering king mashiah.
As I said your "el" argument is irrelevant. Prove me wrong about "el Gibbor."
Have you ever read the New Testament? Jesus never told anyone to not observe Torah and He observed Torah Himself.
Do you observe Torah or not? Didn't Paul teach he received his teachings from him, Jesus?

I don't see the JPS referencing two Mashiahs. Do you?

El is used of humans as well, like in the case of judges, Psalm 82:6. The usage of the word Elohim is also used of the mighty, judges. And kings judge as well.

Again, terms used for God and men don't mean the same thing.

So, I don't think you have a valid reason for saying my comments are irrelevant.

BTW, where do the Jewish scholars you reference ever say that God will become a man and die? Nowhere.

And yes, I've read the NT. That's why I can have a discussion with you on these topics.
 
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I would say Isaiah 7:14 says a young woman, not virgin gives birth, based on the JPS scholars. The footnotes were given on biblehub. So any bias would be theirs.
As I said, the word "el" is used of many in their names. Are they all divine? No. So, your unwillingness to admit the relevance is your bias.
Does Jesus keep and teach others in the observance of Torah? No ?. And that came from the Targum. So, he is not the subject of the context.
If you can tell me of the relevance of Mashiah ben Yosef or David, I don't mind discussing it.
I guess the 225 BC LXX translators got it wrong they translated "almah" as "parthenos." Are you aware that Rebekah
is called בתולה in Gen 24:16 and עלמה Gen 24:43?
 
I guess the 225 BC LXX translators got it wrong they translated "almah" as "parthenos." Are you aware that Rebekah
is called בתולה in Gen 24:16 and עלמה Gen 24:43?
You don't have that LXX. Yours is from the 3rd/4th century.

The original LXX only included the Pentateuch, the Torah.

You're aware that the term Almah is not conclusive as an Almah hides her relations in Proverbs 30:19.

Are you backing away from saying the JPS is scholarly? Be consistent.

BTW, the LXX you have uses parthenos of Dina after she is raped. Was Mary raped when she birthed Jesus?
 
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Tanakh contradicts you.
Deuteronomy 18 where Moses tells us, “The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brothers – it is to him you shall listen”. (verse 15). And later in verse 18; “I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers . And I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him. And whoever will not listen to my words that he shall speak in my name, I myself will require it of him.”

Jesus spoke in His name.
 
Deuteronomy 18 where Moses tells us, “The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brothers – it is to him you shall listen”. (verse 15). And later in verse 18; “I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers . And I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him. And whoever will not listen to my words that he shall speak in my name, I myself will require it of him.”

Jesus spoke in His name.
Where did God say to teach others not to follow or teach Torah?
 
Where did God say to teach others not to follow or teach Torah?
Rabbinical Judaism does not follow all the Laws given nor do they believed the Prophets.
Rejecting them, not knowing the LORD they have followed men who have twisted truth to reign of the people.
Your brainwashed and have gone the way of Cain offering grain.
 
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