yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.

Carbon

Well-known member
yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life. John 5:40.

God knows how to deal with man and not destroy or violate the free will.
God searches and knows the hearts of all men,
2 You know when I sit down and when I rise up;
you discern my thoughts from afar.
3 You search out my path and my lying down
and are acquainted with all my ways.
4 Even before a word is on my tongue,
behold, O Lord, you know it altogether.

Psalm 139

God is able to operate as to not destroy the will of His creatures.
God is able to influence the will to suggest a gentle lead to thoughts which may prove a safeguard in the hour of temptation; God is able to do many things without violation of our free agency.

Man since the fall carries with him a dreadful inclination to evil and sinfulness which increase his desire to resist grace, but nevertheless, when it pleases God to touch a mans heart, He makes him do whatever He chooses and in whatever manner He chooses, yet in no way destroys the natural liberty of man.


Augustine said it this way: God changes the human heart by a heavenly sweetness of disposition imparted to it, which overcoming the sensuality of the flesh, causes man on the one hand, to perceive his mortality and nothingness, and on the other to discover the greatness and eternity of God; and produces a distaste for pleasure of sin which separate him from incorruptible blessedness, till finding his supreme enjoyment in the God who attracts him, he inclines infallibly, and of himself, to this good by a bias entirely free, voluntary and affectionate, so that to be separated from it would be grief and a punishment. Not that he becomes incapable of departing from it, or of departing effectually if he chose; but could he be so disposed when the will never propels to do anything but what is most pleasing to Him, and nothing pleases him so much as that single good which comprehends in itself all others


For the elect, the Holy Spirit acts first. By quickening in us the life of Christ, renewing the image of God which was marred and imparting a new principle of life in us.


The word says, 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” Romans 9.
19 And he said, “I will make all my goodness pass before you and will proclaim before you my name ‘The Lord.’ And I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy. Ex 33.

Consider how God dealt with Pharaoh. Pharaoh continually set up his own will against the will of God. God said He raised him up for this purpose to show His Power.
Even though God raised him up for this purpose, Pharaoh was unwilling and hardened his heart towards God. God didn't cause Pharaoh to unwilling to repent, God didn't make him harden his heart. If he had repented he would have obtained mercy.
God didn't violate his will.

So for the elect, God operates in the heart in such a way that it does not violate mans will. Again, For the elect, the Holy Spirit acts first. By quickening in us the life of Christ, renewing the image of God which was marred and imparting a new principle of life in us. Hence: Regeneration before faith.


For the non-elect, God does not make them unwilling to come, they freely choose not to come, and God does not violate their free will. Just like with Pharaoh.

37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing! Matt 23.

yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life. John 5:40.

What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? Romans 9
 
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Ken Hamrick

Active member
yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life. John 5:40.

God knows how to deal with man and not destroy or violate the free will.
God searches and knows the hearts of all men,
2 You know when I sit down and when I rise up;
you discern my thoughts from afar.
3 You search out my path and my lying down
and are acquainted with all my ways.
4 Even before a word is on my tongue,
behold, O Lord, you know it altogether.

Psalm 139

God is able to operate as to not destroy the will of His creatures.
God is able to influence the will to suggest a gentle lead to thoughts which may prove a safeguard in the hour of temptation; God is able to do many things without violation of our free agency.

Man since the fall carries with him a dreadful inclination to evil and sinfulness which increase his desire to resist grace, but nevertheless, when it pleases God to touch a mans heart, He makes him do whatever He chooses and in whatever manner He chooses, yet in no way destroys the natural liberty of man.


Augustine said it this way: God changes the human heart by a heavenly sweetness of disposition imparted to it, which overcoming the sensuality of the flesh, causes man on the one hand, to perceive his mortality and nothingness, and on the other to discover the greatness and eternity of God; and produces a distaste for pleasure of sin which separate him from incorruptible blessedness, till finding his supreme enjoyment in the God who attracts him, he inclines infallibly, and of himself, to this good by a bias entirely free, voluntary and affectionate, so that to be separated from it would be grief and a punishment. Not that he becomes incapable of departing from it, or of departing effectually if he chose; but could he be so disposed when the will never propels to do anything but what is most pleasing to Him, and nothing pleases him so much as that single good which comprehends in itself all others


For the elect, the Holy Spirit acts first. By quickening in us the life of Christ, renewing the image of God which was marred and imparting a new principle of life in us.


The word says, 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” Romans 9.
19 And he said, “I will make all my goodness pass before you and will proclaim before you my name ‘The Lord.’ And I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy. Ex 33.

Consider how God dealt with Pharaoh. Pharaoh continually set up his own will against the will of God. God said He raised him up for this purpose to show His Power.
Even though God raised him up for this purpose, Pharaoh was unwilling and hardened his heart towards God. God didn't cause Pharaoh to unwilling to repent, God didn't make him harden his heart. If he had repented he would have obtained mercy.
God didn't violate his will.

So for the elect, God operates in the heart in such a way that it does not violate mans will. Again, For the elect, the Holy Spirit acts first. By quickening in us the life of Christ, renewing the image of God which was marred and imparting a new principle of life in us. Hence: Regeneration before faith.


For the non-elect, God does not make them unwilling to come, they freely choose not to come, and God does not violate their free will. Just like with Pharaoh.

37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing! Matt 23.

yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life. John 5:40.

What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? Romans 9
Except for the regeneration prior to faith part, that's not bad at all.
 

Ken Hamrick

Active member
"You refuse to come to me..."

Literally, it is a refusal. Figuratively, it is an inability--figurative because they really could come if they really wanted to... but they do not and will not.

"...that you might have life."

This part indicates that if they would come, He would give them life.
 

Ken Hamrick

Active member
Ken was there ever a point in your Christian walk where you believed regeneration preceded Faith ?
No. I was raised in a Wesleyan church (by which God saved me). As a young adult, I left that to be a Baptist because I saw that the turnstile salvation was not biblical--that true salvation can never be lost, and all "apostates" were never really saved to begin with. Although I found God's meticulous sovereignty and unconditional election to be easily accepted once introduced, I've always felt uneasy with how the doctrine of regeneration prior to faith is exegeted. But I also have, as every true Christian, given full credit to God alone for changing my heart to believe in Him when it was hopelessly sinful and not God-seeking. But even now, after all the years of study, I find that the doctrine could fit well with what else I believe.
 

Ken Hamrick

Active member
Do you totally disagree with it, or just not convinced?
I see how it could work. In the OT, saints were not born again like the NT. Christ had to die before He could bring that experience to a union with a believer. Without that experience, the Holy Spirit did not unite believers to Christ. So as I see it, regeneration now could be like the Holy Spirit’s work in the OT, in dwelling us to change our hearts to believe, but withholding Christ until we believe. I see how it might work, but that’s as far as it goes. But keep in mind that I’ve been studying this (as well as trying to write a book about applying Adamic Realism to soteriology) since ‘99; so I’m not likely to be easily moved.
 

civic

Well-known member
No. I was raised in a Wesleyan church (by which God saved me). As a young adult, I left that to be a Baptist because I saw that the turnstile salvation was not biblical--that true salvation can never be lost, and all "apostates" were never really saved to begin with. Although I found God's meticulous sovereignty and unconditional election to be easily accepted once introduced, I've always felt uneasy with how the doctrine of regeneration prior to faith is exegeted. But I also have, as every true Christian, given full credit to God alone for changing my heart to believe in Him when it was hopelessly sinful and not God-seeking. But even now, after all the years of study, I find that the doctrine could fit well with what else I believe.
Although we disagree with regeneration I respect your view.
 

Carbon

Well-known member
I see how it could work. In the OT, saints were not born again like the NT. Christ had to die before He could bring that experience to a union with a believer. Without that experience, the Holy Spirit did not unite believers to Christ. So as I see it, regeneration now could be like the Holy Spirit’s work in the OT, in dwelling us to change our hearts to believe, but withholding Christ until we believe. I see how it might work, but that’s as far as it goes. But keep in mind that I’ve been studying this (as well as trying to write a book about applying Adamic Realism to soteriology) since ‘99; so I’m not likely to be easily moved.
I appreciate your knowledge and sincerity Ken.
And like a couple Calvinists have mentioned before, it’s not a salvational issue.

But let me try from a different angle, a thought which you sparked from your post.

Considering the most holy place, where the high priest entered once a year for the sins of the people, I believe points to Christ.

Our high priest Jesus Christ entered into that place by His own blood, and is still there. He holds the mystery of what is in the veil. And the elect must wait patiently until the time Christ comes forth and blesses those who are His by creating life in the soul. That’s the day we can see (John 3:3) clearly as face to face.
Until that day, men seek in vain, thinking and trying to bring the faculties of the Spirit to the domain of human reasoning.


But what is in the vail - in the spirit- can only be discerned by the light of the Spirit of God. Through regeneration.
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life. John 5:40.

God knows how to deal with man and not destroy or violate the free will.
God searches and knows the hearts of all men,
2 You know when I sit down and when I rise up;
you discern my thoughts from afar.
3 You search out my path and my lying down
and are acquainted with all my ways.
4 Even before a word is on my tongue,
behold, O Lord, you know it altogether.

Psalm 139
God has foreknowledge, yet as Paul points out there can be no foreknowledge without predestination. What God foreknows is predestined.
God is able to operate as to not destroy the will of His creatures.
This is kind of funny in that it's a loophole. God can leave your free will in tact by simply not revealing the kingdom to you in the first place. Therefore, your free will is still in tact, yet you will never be able to choose Christ.
God is able to influence the will to suggest a gentle lead to thoughts which may prove a safeguard in the hour of temptation; God is able to do many things without violation of our free agency.
This is yet another bit of dishonesty. God also doesn't have to use his influence at all when dealing with the damned. See the difference? He's playing favorites. God can take someone like Jonah, toss him into the sea, and barf him up onto a beach to do God's will only to then leave him disgusted and miserable. Jonah has no choice in the matter.

When Paul gets knocked to the ground, and blinded, he now has a whole new set of choices to make which he never would have considered had God not intervened. So while one's free will may be left in tact, it is still up to God to make these decisions which he already foreknows and has predestined.
Man since the fall carries with him a dreadful inclination to evil and sinfulness which increase his desire to resist grace, but nevertheless, when it pleases God to touch a mans heart, He makes him do whatever He chooses and in whatever manner He chooses, yet in no way destroys the natural liberty of man.
You're using liberty incorrectly. When Paul refers to liberty he is explicitly referring to liberty FROM sin. Man's natural state is enslavement to sin.
What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? Romans 9
What if you were one of those vessels of wrath? What would you do if God without repentance revealed to you that you were one of those vessels of wrath? You yourself have repeatedly pointed to God's influence so what if he influenced you to see that he alone had the power to make this decision, and decided to reveal that you were a vessel of wrath.
 

Carbon

Well-known member
God has foreknowledge, yet as Paul points out there can be no foreknowledge without predestination. What God foreknows is predestined.

This is kind of funny in that it's a loophole. God can leave your free will in tact by simply not revealing the kingdom to you in the first place. Therefore, your free will is still in tact, yet you will never be able to choose Christ.

This is yet another bit of dishonesty. God also doesn't have to use his influence at all when dealing with the damned. See the difference? He's playing favorites. God can take someone like Jonah, toss him into the sea, and barf him up onto a beach to do God's will only to then leave him disgusted and miserable. Jonah has no choice in the matter.

When Paul gets knocked to the ground, and blinded, he now has a whole new set of choices to make which he never would have considered had God not intervened. So while one's free will may be left in tact, it is still up to God to make these decisions which he already foreknows and has predestined.

You're using liberty incorrectly. When Paul refers to liberty he is explicitly referring to liberty FROM sin. Man's natural state is enslavement to sin.

What if you were one of those vessels of wrath? What would you do if God without repentance revealed to you that you were one of those vessels of wrath? You yourself have repeatedly pointed to God's influence so what if he influenced you to see that he alone had the power to make this decision, and decided to reveal that you were a vessel of wrath.
Are you one of those, instead of discussing a post with your ideas and logical reasoning you address everything as funny and dishonest?
Seems your a great person to discourse with.
 

Carbon

Well-known member
What if you were one of those vessels of wrath? What would you do if God without repentance revealed to you that you were one of those vessels of wrath? You yourself have repeatedly pointed to God's influence so what if he influenced you to see that he alone had the power to make this decision, and decided to reveal that you were a vessel of wrath.
Umm, and what’s the point of your question?
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
Umm, and what’s the point of your question?
The point is what would you do if God revealed to you that you were one of those vessels fitted for destruction? Remember that Paul has just pointed out that those who ask why they're to blame for God making them that way, and Paul has not only not denied that fact, but gone on to tell them to just shut up because it's a Given that God is just. So, given that God will not repent of his divine plan of salvation, and you're not part of that plan, what would you do if what Paul described was referring to you?

It's a real simple straightforward question, and one that most Christians flatly refuse to answer.

The point is would you live your life any differently knowing that your destiny was eternal separation from God?
 
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