yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.

Carbon

Well-known member
The point is what would you do if God revealed to you that you were one of those vessels fitted for destruction? Remember that Paul has just pointed out that those who ask why they're to blame for God making them that way, and Paul has not only not denied that fact, but gone on to tell them to just shut up because it's a Given that God is just. So, given that God will not repent of his divine plan of salvation, and you're not part of that plan, what would you do if what Paul described was referring to you?

It's a real simple straightforward question, and one that most Christians flatly refuse to answer.

The point is would you live your life any differently knowing that your destiny was eternal separation from God?
I personally have no problem answering that question. But I don’t care for your disposition.

So why don’t you answer your own question?
 
T

TomFL

Guest
"You refuse to come to me..."

Literally, it is a refusal. Figuratively, it is an inability--figurative because they really could come if they really wanted to... but they do not and will not.

"...that you might have life."

This part indicates that if they would come, He would give them life.
So coming precedes life
 
T

TomFL

Guest
So for the elect, God operates in the heart in such a way that it does not violate mans will. Again, For the elect, the Holy Spirit acts first. By quickening in us the life of Christ, renewing the image of God which was marred and imparting a new principle of life in us. Hence: Regeneration before faith.

Except faith comes before life according to scripture


and to regenerate is to make alive
 

eternomade

Well-known member
What if you were one of those vessels of wrath? What would you do if God without repentance revealed to you that you were one of those vessels of wrath? You yourself have repeatedly pointed to God's influence so what if he influenced you to see that he alone had the power to make this decision, and decided to reveal that you were a vessel of wrath.
I like these questions.

I would be severely depressed/anxious. Probably would try to make life as long as possible. We have no justification for blaming the potter, but I still would.
 

civic

Well-known member
I like these questions.

I would be severely depressed/anxious. Probably would try to make life as long as possible. We have no justification for blaming the potter, but I still would.
Yes fallen man always blames God crying you made me this way. Well no He did not since everyone is a sinner and is condemned for their own sins and cannot blame God for their rebellion.

The plain and simple fact is God did not have to save anyone and could of just left man in their sinful state forever. But by His grace He chose to save some. So the clay cannot say to the potter why did you make me this way as an excuse. Paul makes that abundantly clear in Romans 9.
 

civic

Well-known member
Me thinks the lady doth protest too much

Excuses, excuses.

What makes you think I haven't?
a sinner will live sinfully its in his nature to sin and rebel against God.

what would make you think a sinner would or could choose otherwise where pleasing self is not what this life is all about apart from God ?

look at how this culture promotes self satisfaction with everything. man want nothing to do with a Holy God so live your life to its fullest since its all you have to live for and there is no afterlife, no answering to any god, no accountability for how one lives their own life.

of course I would live my life completely different that I have for the past 40 years if I did not believe in Christ. Only an idiot would would think otherwise.

hope this helps !!!
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
I like these questions.
Thanks. I think Paul's argument is provocative and reveals the hypocrisy embedded within the human heart which is why so many people don't want to answer the question. Deep down, people don't want to get honest with themselves.
I would be severely depressed/anxious. Probably would try to make life as long as possible. We have no justification for blaming the potter, but I still would.
When they talk about standing before the throne of Judgement, the damned all know they're guilty, and jump into the fire. When the bible talks of the people wishing they could die, and have the mountains conceal them from God, it paints a picture of people who can't blame God.

I can empathize with your sentiments. It doesn't seem fair if we want to do the right thing, but are either incapable, or created for destruction.

Making life as long as possible is also understandable, but only insofar as that extended life is as pleasant, fulfilling, productive, etc. as possible. No one wants to extend misery. Here again, you bring up an interesting point, one which the bible spotlights as well, i.e. how precisely do we live the best life possible? The Mosaic law provides us with quite a few specific examples of how to live a better life. The wisdom literature, the prophets, etc. also supply us with even greater insights into living the best life possible.

There are a number of companies who are working on extending life spans, but ironically there are a lot of people who aren't interested because they know that their retirement funds won't allow them to continue living at an acceptable living standard. So they want to die before they run out of money. They don't like the idea of having to live in a tent or trailer, and go out and find work in their 80's or 90's.
 

Carbon

Well-known member
I like these questions.

I would be severely depressed/anxious. Probably would try to make life as long as possible. We have no justification for blaming the potter, but I still would.
I’d probably say, “hey whatever!”
I could care less, leave me alone!

The reprobate don’t believe in God, they hate God, they will probably go on for ever cursing and blaming God for everything.
So, if I was a reprobate, why would I do different?
 

eternomade

Well-known member
I’d probably say, “hey whatever!”
I could care less, leave me alone.

The reprobate don’t believe in God, they hate God, they will probably go on for ever cursing and blaming God for everything.
So, if I was a reprobate, why would I do different?
I think the difference is that this question is hypothetical and assumes this has been revealed to the reprobate personally, by God.
 

Carbon

Well-known member
God has foreknowledge, yet as Paul points out there can be no foreknowledge without predestination. What God foreknows is predestined.
Care to explain?

What type of influence does foreknowledge have over predestination? Is that what you mean?
It’s true God’s knowledge can never be deceived , His knowledge is perfect but in which way does His foreknowledge influence ours or any actions?

Suppose God gave one person knowledge of an event that will happen in another persons life; will this knowledge have any influence over the actions of the other? No, of course not.

The foreknowledge of God, is knowledge, and knowledge has no influence on things that are.

Foreknowledge is not the cause of anything
 

civic

Well-known member
Care to explain?

What type of influence does foreknowledge have over predestination? Is that what you mean?
It’s true God’s knowledge can never be deceived , His knowledge is perfect but in which way does His foreknowledge influence ours or any actions?

Suppose God gave one person knowledge of an event that will happen in another persons life; will this knowledge have any influence over the actions of the other? No, of course not.

The foreknowledge of God, is knowledge, and knowledge has no influence on things that are.

Foreknowledge is not the cause of anything
There was a former hyper poster years ago that sounds similar to snark and he had hackle in his name I think.
 
Top