YHWH PIERCED = JESUS PIERCED

johnny guitar

Well-known member
Jesus was “foreknown” as per scriptures.

Your false interpretation of John 1 was refuted with clear scriptures in its context so now you run to another topic.

Jesus says “As you sent me into the world, so I have sent them into the world” so according to you the disciples also came down from heaven.

Jesus is a human being with a God, YHWH. You deny this simple truth and thus you deny Jesus and his God
Jesus was sent from heaven; the apostles were NOT.
 

Towerwatchman

Active member
YHWH, who is the king of Israel is also Israel’s Redeemer and the Lord of hosts. From v. 1-5 Israel has been the subject of who YHWH is speaking to and who YHWH chose and who YHWH poured his spirit over and who YHWH blessed.
Don't just write about it, show us. Show us what in vs 1-5 modifies "His" in vs 6 that we can conclude that vs 6 is speaking of one individual vs two.
As shown above, King of Israel, his redeemer and Lord of hosts all refer to YHWH, the God and Father of Jesus Christ.
Again you did not show anything, all you did was write about it. Similar to arguing in a court of law that you have the murder weapon and never produce it.
You cannot redefine grammatical rules. The pronominal suffix establishes an association between King of Israel and Lord of Host. To have "an association between" you need more than one.
That’s two YHWHs which is polytheism and unbiblical.
Outside of the Trinity you have polytheism.

Trinity in a nutshell

Monotheism = there is only one true God.
There are three divine persons called “God” in the Bible.​
Within the one being that is God there exist eternally three coequal and coeternal persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.​
“Person” refers to the center of consciousness and includes the idea of mind, will and desire.​
Just as I am a being with one center of self-consciousness, who I call “I”, God is a being with three centers of self-consciousness each of which can say “I”.​
I am the Father.​
I am the Son.​
I am the Holy Spirit.​
Each has a first-person perspective.​

They are three distinct persons.​
The Father is not identical to the Son or the Holy Spirit.​
The Son is not identical to the Father or the Holy Spirit​
The Holy Spirit is not identical to the Son or to the Father.​
They are not independent of each other they still belong to the same being.​

Since each is divine they share the attributes of deity.​
God is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.​
The Father is God and not the Son or the Holy Spirit.​
The Son is God but not the Father or Holy Spirit.​
The Holy Spirit is God but not the Father or Son.​

“Co-equal” fully shared the being that is God never one third.​
“ Coeternal” all three exist within eternity, one did not exist before the other.​
God= what.​
Three persons= who.​
Essence -is properly described as that whereby a thing is what it is; the essence of a thing is that which is expressed by its definition.​
Existence - whereas the essence gives an answer to the question as to what the thing is, the existence is the affirmative to the question as to whether it is.​
God is eternal, existence is of the essence of God,​
Essence and existence are identical in God.​
Nature - is that whereby it acts as it does, the essence considered as the foundation and principle of its operation.​
Love is a marker of God’s essence.​
God’s nature is love.​
Being- signifies the substance of X, what makes X individual.​
“Being” refers to the essential attributes that make God what He is,​
holy​
omnipresent​
omniscient​
immutable​
omnipotent​

Not Modalism one person with three personalities.
One very common but mistaken analogy of the Trinity is water in a glass that can exist either as water, steam or ice. This is Modalism, which states that God is a single person, who reveals Himself in different forms or modes. This view states that that Father , Son, and HS never all exist at the same time, but rather it is the same being manifesting Himself as either of the three throughout history. Thus the idea of one glass, and within that glass the same measurement of H2O appearing in different forms.

Not Polytheism three separate beings.
At the other end of the spectrum is Polytheism which teaches three separate beings, each with their own personalities which are gods. Here we have three glasses of water, first holding water, second holding steam, third holding ice.

Trinity = three persons sharing the one Godhead.
Therefore, we have one glass and within that one glass steam, water, and ice at the same time intermixed.

God is a spirit thus not limited to the physical, eternally exists outside of time and space. He is not limited to time, space, and matter as we are.


 

Towerwatchman

Active member
Also, you never answered this question

“Believe in God; believe also in me”

When Jesus uttered these words which God was he referring to here, YHWH or the trinity?
Jesus could have been referring to the being or the other two centers of consciousness. And that is nothing new, there are several topics about God that have multiple answers.
  • According to the whole of Scripture who raised Jesus from the dead?
    • The Father raised Jesus from the dead.
      • Ro 6:4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
    • Jesus raised Himself from the dead.
      • Jn 2:19-22 Jesus answered and said to them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” 20 Then the Jews said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?” 21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body. 22 Therefore, when He had risen from the dead, His disciples remembered that He had said this to them; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had said.
      • Jn 10:17-18 “Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. 18 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.”
    • Proclaims the Holy Spirit raised Jesus from the dead.
      • Ro 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
    • Only God could raise Jesus from the dead.
      • Ac 3:26 To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, fin turning away every one of you from your iniquities.”
      • Acts 13:30 But God raised Him from the dead.
      • Acts 17:30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”
      • 1 Thess. 1:9,10 For they themselves declare concerning us what manner of entry we had to you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, 10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.
      • He 13:20 Now may the God of peace who brought up our Lord Jesus from the dead, that great Shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
        • Therefore the whole of Scripture reveals the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit in the unity as God were responsible for raising Jesus from the dead. Now let’s look at the issue of salvation.
  • According to Scripture who REGENERATES man?
    • Proclaims the Father regenerates man.
      • 1 Peter 1:3 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
    • Proclaims the Son regenerates man.
      • John 5:21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will.
      • Jn 4:14 but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.”
    • Proclaims the Holy Spirit regenerates man.
      • John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
      • Ti 3:5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
    • Proclaims God regenerates man.
      • 1 Jn 3:9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
        • We have to conclude that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit in the unity as God are responsible for regenerating man according to the whole of Scripture.

  • According to Scripture JUSTIFIES man?
    • Proclaims that the Father JUSTIFIES man.
      • Je 23:6 In His days Judah will be saved, And Israel will dwell safely; Now this is His name by which He will be called: THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
      • 2 Co 5:18-19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
    • Proclaims that the Son JUSTIFIES man.
      • Ro 5:9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.
      • Ro 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
      • 2 Co 5:19-21 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation. 20 Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God. 21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
    • Proclaims that the Holy Spirit JUSTIFIES man.
      • 1 Co 6:10-11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
      • Ga 5:4-5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
    • Proclaims that God justifies man.
      • Ro 4:6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
      • Ro 9:33 “Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense, And whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”
        • We have to conclude that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit in the unity as God are responsible for justifying man according to the whole of Scripture.
  • According to Scripture who SANCTIFIES man?
    • Proclaims that the Father SANCTIFIES man.
      • Jude 1 Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, To those who are called, 1sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ:
    • Proclaims that the Son SANCTIFIES man.
      • Titus 2:14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.
    • Proclaims that the Holy Spirit SANCTIFIES man.
      • 1 Pe 1:2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:
    • Proclaims God SANCTIFIES man.
      • Ex 31:13 “Speak also to the children of Israel, saying: ‘Surely My Sabbaths you shall keep, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the Lord who sanctifies you.
        • We have to conclude that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit in the unity as God are responsible for regenerating man according to the whole of Scripture.

  • Who propitiated (i.e. -- to gain or regain the favor or goodwill of) God's just and righteous anger against man for his sins?
    • Proclaims the Father did.
      • Jn 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world.
      • Jn 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
      • Jn 18:11 So Jesus said to Peter, “Put your sword into the sheath. Shall I not drink the cup which My Father has given Me?”
    • Proclaims the Son did.
      • Mt 26:2828 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
      • John 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!
      • 1 John 2:2 2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
    • Proclaims the Holy Spirit did.
      • Hebrews 9:14 14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
    • Proclaims God did.
      • 2 Cor 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
      • Ac 20:28 Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.
        • We have to conclude that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit in the unity as God propitiated God's just and righteous anger against man for his sins
  • The only overall conclusion that can be reasonably, rationally and logically reached is that the whole of Scripture clearly reveals the doctrine of the Trinity.

 

Towerwatchman

Active member
Nor did you address my point about the singular personal pronoun “me” which clear indicates one single individual.
Yes in 44:6 Me is singular. And? Read the verse in its entirety.


“Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel,
And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
‘I am the First and I am the Last;
Besides Me there is no God.

Thus says "A" "and His" "B" = "I", "I", "ME".

Grammatically you cannot get around "His", it establishes a relationship, association, connection, link, correlation, or ,correspondence between YHWH King Of Israel, and YWHW Lord of Host.
 

Yahchristian

Well-known member
Grammatically you cannot get around "His", it establishes a relationship, association, connection, link, correlation, or ,correspondence between YHWH King Of Israel, and YWHW Lord of Host.

So..........

Which statement do you agree with?

A) YHWH King Of Israel IS YWHW Lord of Host.

B) YHWH King Of Israel is NOT YWHW Lord of Host.

I say A.
 

Towerwatchman

Active member
Here is what you are totally ignorant of and right from the mouth of Jesus also.


Matthew 25:

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’


Notice whatever they had done good or bad to Jesus' sheep, they did also unto Jesus himself and this is also what Yahweh is revealing in Zechariah 12:10, for when they pierced Jesus physically, they also pierced the Father spiritually because Jesus is at the bosom of the Father Yahweh.


Therefore just like it is with the Saints and their association with Jesus, the same is being demonstrated with Jesus and his association with the Father Yahweh in Zechariah 12:10, for when they pierced Jesus they were in turn piercing Yahweh also in a Spiritual sense.

It is called piercing by association, are you getting the message yet?
Pure imagination.
Anyhow
“Whom they have pierced” , is defining or clarifying who “Me" is. It’s hard to get around it. Outside the Trinity it’s polytheism.
 

Yahweh will increase

Well-known member
Pure imagination.
Anyhow
“Whom they have pierced” , is defining or clarifying who “Me" is. It’s hard to get around it. Outside the Trinity it’s polytheism.
So then, are you claiming that Jesus was speaking "pure imagination" in Matthew 25:31-46 when he said that whatever was done unto the least of his sheep good or bad was actually done unto him?

Oh and by the way, Jesus also used that word "me" here and just like Yahweh did in Zechariah 12:10 also, but this is spiritual truth and not meant to be understood by those who only claim to be in the Spirit while actually they are still in the flesh.


You will see this also when Jesus confronted Saul on the road to Damascus and said unto him, "Saul, Saul why are you persecuting me" when he had never even done anything to Jesus personally but only unto his sheep.

Then there was Moses also, for when the people rejected and complained about Moses, it was actually Yahweh that they were rejecting and complaining about and actually we see this principles in all of those who were truly God's appointed leaders.

So then, I think you better read it once again, for the same principal applied with Jesus and the Father Yahweh, for when they pierced his Son (spiritually speaking), they were actually piercing Yahweh also.



Read it again and get your flesh out of the way, for this just like Zechariah 12:10 is spiritual and therefore it cannot be understood by the flesh but only through the Spirit.

Matthew 25:31-46

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
 
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Towerwatchman

Active member
So then, are you claiming that Jesus was speaking "pure imagination" in Matthew 25:31-46 when he said that whatever was done unto the least of his sheep good or bad was actually done unto him?
No, just you.
Oh and by the way, Jesus also used that word "me" here and just like Yahweh did in Zechariah 12:10 also, but this is spiritual truth and not meant to be understood by those who only claim to be in the Spirit while actually they are still in the flesh.
You will see this also when Jesus confronted Saul on the road to Damascus and said unto him, "Saul, Saul why are you persecuting me" when he had never even done anything to Jesus personally but only unto his sheep.
Then there was Moses also, for when the people rejected and complained about Moses, it was actually Yahweh that they were rejecting and complaining about and actually we see this principles in all of those who were truly God's appointed leaders.
Writing your own theology based on the word 'me'. Fallacy of false analogy = just because the issues at hand are alike in trivial ways it does not make it relevant to the conclusion.

Allow me to show how idiotic this is.

Following your reasoning I could write false doctrine based on the word 'I'.

Genesis 17:1 ...“I am God Almighty...
Genesis 35:11...“I am God Almighty;
Genesis 26:24...“I am the God of your father Abraham...
YHWH God identifies Himself as God by using "I".

Isaiah 14
‘I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.’

Satan identifies himself by using 'I'.

Therefore Satan must be God.

See the stupidity.

So then, I think you better read it once again, for the same principal applied with Jesus and the Father Yahweh, for when they pierced his Son (spiritually speaking), they were actually piercing Yahweh also.
Read it again and get your flesh out of the way, for this just like Zechariah 12:10 is spiritual and therefore it cannot be understood by the flesh but only through the Spirit.
Last ditch effort to save a failed theory. Total nonsense.
 

Yahweh will increase

Well-known member
No, just you.

Writing your own theology based on the word 'me'. Fallacy of false analogy = just because the issues at hand are alike in trivial ways it does not make it relevant to the conclusion.
LOL, Jesus very clearly said that when they did it or did not do unto those who were his representatives on earth, they did or didn't do it unto him personally and he used the word "me" just like Yahweh did in Zechariah 12:10.

Also and just like Yahweh didn't, Jesus never gave any further explanation of what he meant but expected his true sheep to know what he meant.


The point that Jesus was making, is that the offence was against him personally and that is the same exact point that Yahweh wanted Israel and the world to see in Zechariah 12:10, that although they pierced his human Son, the offence of their doing that was against him personally.


This principle is also seen all through the Bible and especially in the Parable of the Vineyard and the Tenants.

Allow me to show how idiotic this is.
You have already shown me how idiotic your understanding of the scriptures truly is, for that is always the case when one seeks to understand Spiritual Words with human wisdom, reasoning and logic.


Following your reasoning I could write false doctrine based on the word 'I'.
Genesis 17:1 ...“I am God Almighty...
Genesis 35:11...“I am God Almighty;
Genesis 26:24...“I am the God of your father Abraham...
YHWH God identifies Himself as God by using "I".

Isaiah 14
‘I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.’

Satan identifies himself by using 'I'.

Therefore Satan must be God.

First off, you are already doing it, you are already writing false doctrine with every post you make on this forum.


LOL, for only those who are in gross spiritual darkness would take those verses to mean contrary to what they do and just like you are doing with Zechariah 12:10 and attempting to justify yourself with in this post also.



This is the same as what you do with bunches of other passages of scripture likewise, for it isn't about a lack or problem in academic understanding like you are supposing that it is, but it is about spiritual blindness and of which your churches are heavily plagued with also.



Now then listen up, for someone could just as easily say that Jesus was saying that he and his saints were one and the same single being after reading Mathew 25-31-46 also, but this would only apply to those in the same kind of spiritual darkness and ignorance that you are in.


See the stupidity.
Indeed, for I definitely see how stupid it is for you to attempt to get around the truth I am showing you in Matthew 25:31-46 and how it compares to Zechariah 12:10, by your ridiculous nonsensical arguments in this post.
Last ditch effort to save a failed theory.
The only failed theory here is your own dude and I have proven it by the principle seen in Matthew 25:31-46 also, for Jesus said in as much as they did or didn't do it to the least of his sheep, they did or didn't do it to him and he used "me" in the passage several times and just like Yahweh did in Zechariah 12:10 also.

Total nonsense.
Yes that is precisely what all of your own arguments above amount to.
 

Towerwatchman

Active member
LOL, Jesus very clearly said that when they did it or did not do unto those who were his representatives on earth, they did or didn't do it unto him personally and he used the word "me" just like Yahweh did in Zechariah 12:10.

Also and just like Yahweh didn't, Jesus never gave any further explanation of what he meant but expected his true sheep to know what he meant.


The point that Jesus was making, is that the offence was against him personally and that is the same exact point that Yahweh wanted Israel and the world to see in Zechariah 12:10, that although they pierced his human Son, the offence of their doing that was against him personally.


This principle is also seen all through the Bible and especially in the Parable of the Vineyard and the Tenants.


You have already shown me how idiotic your understanding of the scriptures truly is, for that is always the case when one seeks to understand Spiritual Words with human wisdom, reasoning and logic.




First off, you are already doing it, you are already writing false doctrine with every post you make on this forum.


LOL, for only those who are in gross spiritual darkness would take those verses to mean contrary to what they do and just like you are doing with Zechariah 12:10 and attempting to justify yourself with in this post also.



This is the same as what you do with bunches of other passages of scripture likewise, for it isn't about a lack or problem in academic understanding like you are supposing that it is, but it is about spiritual blindness and of which your churches are heavily plagued with also.



Now then listen up, for someone could just as easily say that Jesus was saying that he and his saints were one and the same single being after reading Mathew 25-31-46 also, but this would only apply to those in the same kind of spiritual darkness and ignorance that you are in.



Indeed, for I definitely see how stupid it is for you to attempt to get around the truth I am showing you in Matthew 25:31-46 and how it compares to Zechariah 12:10, by your ridiculous nonsensical arguments in this post.

The only failed theory here is your own dude and I have proven it by the principle seen in Matthew 25:31-46 also, for Jesus said in as much as they did or didn't do it to the least of his sheep, they did or didn't do it to him and he used "me" in the passage several times and just like Yahweh did in Zechariah 12:10 also.


Yes that is precisely what all of your own arguments above amount to.
Every answer you give deviates from the truth more and more. It should start with once upon a time.
 

Yahweh will increase

Well-known member
Every answer you give deviates from the truth more and more. It should start with once upon a time.
Like I said, the fact remains that just as someone could do what you are doing with Zechariah 12:10, they could also easily do with Jesus' words in Matthew 25:31-46.

In other words, they could say that the sheep are one single being with Jesus being whatever was done unto them good or bad was done unto Jesus personally also and by his own words.

That is why all of the academic Bible knowledge one can obtain can never replace the knowledge that true believers receive from the Spirit.

Also, the Bible proves out itself and my argument here from Matthew 25:31-46 in relationship to Yahweh's words in Zechariah 12:10 proves it.

Therefore, the point that Yahweh wanted all of us to know from Zechariah 12:10, is that the offence of their killing Jesus was against Yahweh himself personally and HE is who they wished to rid themselves of when they killed his prophets and finally his human Son Jesus Christ.

Therefore when they did it to his Son, they did it to Yahweh in the same way that Jesus said concerning himself and his servants in Matthew 25:31-46, for as much as they did or didn't do it to the least of these his brethren, they did or didn't do it unto Jesus personally, for it is the same exact principle.
 
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JNelson

Well-known member
Jesus could have been referring to the being or the other two centers of consciousness.
“believe in the being of God; believe also in me”

Your explanation is simply a refusal to accept the simple truth. There’s only one true God, YHWH and he is Jesus’ God and Father.

Since you don’t even know who Jesus meant in by “God” in John 14:1, his words in John 17:3 clear up any confusion you have

“And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent”

It’s really quite simple.
The only overall conclusion that can be reasonably, rationally and logically reached is that the whole of Scripture clearly reveals the doctrine of the Trinity.
The trinity is neither reasonable, rational or logical based on what scriptures actually teach.

There’s only one God, YHWH and he worked through a man whom he appointed and anointed with his spirit. And now, those of us who believe both in God and in Jesus receive the spirit of God.
 

JNelson

Well-known member
Yes in 44:6 Me is singular. And? Read the verse in its entirety.


“Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel,
And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
‘I am the First and I am the Last;
Besides Me there is no God.

Thus says "A" "and His" "B" = "I", "I", "ME".

Grammatically you cannot get around "His", it establishes a relationship, association, connection, link, correlation, or ,correspondence between YHWH King Of Israel, and YWHW Lord of Host.
The “his” refers to Israel as YHWH is Israel’s redeemer and the context starting from v.1 clearly shows “But now hear, O Jacob my servant, Israel whom I have chosen”

You keep arguing for two YHWHs which is polytheism.
 

Towerwatchman

Active member
“believe in the being of God; believe also in me”
Why are you adding to Scripture? Which translation uses 'being'?

Revelation 22:18-19 I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.

Deuteronomy 4:2 You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.

Proverbs 30:5-6 Every word of God is tested; He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him. Do not add to His words
Or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar.


Deuteronomy 12:32 “Whatever I command you, you shall be careful to do; you shall not add to nor take away from it.

Try to argue without adding the word 'being'.
Your explanation is simply a refusal to accept the simple truth. There’s only one true God, YHWH and he is Jesus’ God and Father.

Since you don’t even know who Jesus meant in by “God” in John 14:1, his words in John 17:3 clear up any confusion you have

“And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent”
“Context rules”. Meaning “that which goes with the text.” When you interpret Scripture it must always be considered in light of the surrounding verses and chapters, the book in which it is found, the setting in which it was written and the entire word of God.

Keeping Jn17:3 in isolation you might have an argument, but up against the Scripture and the setting of that time you don't have an argument.

Jn 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

1 Jn. 5:20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

Jn 17:3 identifies the Father as "only true God" should exclude Jesus from being God contradicting 1 Jn 5:20 where Jesus is identified as "true God."
Notice how God is being used within the text. Not as a name of the Father, but in the sense of a class of being. Jesus is identifying the Father as "only true deity" which would not exclude Jesus from being "only true deity" also. Jesus is not denying His deity but praising the Father as deity. Jn 17:1-6.

What is eternal life? According to Jesus, knowing the Father and Jesus Christ
Who gives eternal life? According to Jesus the One True God and Jesus Christ.
Notice the coupling of the two terms " The One True God" and "Jesus Christ" by the conjunction "and" indicating that " The One True God" and "Jesus Christ" are equivalent when it pertains to a matter that only God could address, 'giving eternal life.'

Internal consistency.

•Ro 6:23 God gives eternal life.
•Jn 5:39-40, 10:28, 11:25 and 17:2 Jesus alone gives eternal life.
•Jn 5:21, 17:3 God and Jesus Christ give eternal life.
It’s really quite simple.
The trinity is neither reasonable, rational or logical based on what scriptures actually teach.

There’s only one God, YHWH and he worked through a man whom he appointed and anointed with his spirit. And now, those of us who believe both in God and in Jesus receive the spirit of God.
Who does scripture support? You post one or two verses in isolation and then build your argument from it vs dozens of verses in union that support the Trinity.
In a court of law, which worldview would be considered true based on the evidence?
 

Towerwatchman

Active member
The “his” refers to Israel as YHWH is Israel’s redeemer and the context starting from v.1 clearly shows “But now hear, O Jacob my servant, Israel whom I have chosen”

You keep arguing for two YHWHs which is polytheism.
The pronominal suffix modifies 'redeemer' as a possession of "YHWH King of Israel" and not "Israel". Why? Because Israel is part of the tittle "King of Israel" and not the subject in the verse.

But let's test it.
Thus says Biden the president of the United States and his vice president Kamala Harris.
Based on the above 'vice president Kamala Harris' is a possession of 'Biden the president of the United States' or 'United States'?
 

Towerwatchman

Active member
Like I said, the fact remains that just as someone could do what you are doing with Zechariah 12:10, they could also easily do with Jesus' words in Matthew 25:31-46.

In other words, they could say that the sheep are one single being with Jesus being whatever was done unto them good or bad was done unto Jesus personally also and by his own words.

That is why all of the academic Bible knowledge one can obtain can never replace the knowledge that true believers receive from the Spirit.

Also, the Bible proves out itself and my argument here from Matthew 25:31-46 in relationship to Yahweh's words in Zechariah 12:10 proves it.

Therefore, the point that Yahweh wanted all of us to know from Zechariah 12:10, is that the offence of their killing Jesus was against Yahweh himself personally and HE is who they wished to rid themselves of when they killed his prophets and finally his human Son Jesus Christ.

Therefore when they did it to his Son, they did it to Yahweh in the same way that Jesus said concerning himself and his servants in Matthew 25:31-46, for as much as they did or didn't do it to the least of these his brethren, they did or didn't do it unto Jesus personally, for it is the same exact principle.
proves my point.
Every answer you give deviates from the truth more and more. It should end with 'and they lived happily ever after'.
.
 

Yahweh will increase

Well-known member
proves my point.
Every answer you give deviates from the truth more and more. It should end with 'and they lived happily ever after'.
.
Just the kind of answer that I have come to expect from deceived trin daydreamers like yourself.

The fact is, you have been cornered by the truth and there is no way out for you but to pretend that my answers deviate from the truth when you know good and well that just the opposite is true.

For the same truth that Jesus revealed in Matthew 25:31-46 and in what Jesus spoke to Saul when he was converted on the road to Damascus, also applies to Zechariah 12:10 and thus the scriptures proves the scripture once again.
 
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JNelson

Well-known member
Why are you adding to Scripture? Which translation uses 'being'?
I’m not adding to scriptures, you’re the one who said “Jesus could have been referring to the being” so you’re the one who is adding to scriptures.

I just simply accept what Jesus said, “Believe in God; believe also in me” so I in both YHWH and Jesus.
Revelation 22:18-19 I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.

Deuteronomy 4:2 You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.

Proverbs 30:5-6 Every word of God is tested; He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him. Do not add to His words
Or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar.


Deuteronomy 12:32 “Whatever I command you, you shall be careful to do; you shall not add to nor take away from it.

Try to argue without adding the word 'being'.
It was your argument not mine so take heed on what those verses say.
“Context rules”. Meaning “that which goes with the text.” When you interpret Scripture it must always be considered in light of the surrounding verses and chapters, the book in which it is found, the setting in which it was written and the entire word of God.
I agree but your false assumption is that I based my view solely on one verse which is false. I can cite thousands of verses but here are just a small few. (Putting verses in a separate post as I get an error that post is over 10,000)

1 Jn. 5:20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.
You talk about “context rules” yet you ignore not only the immediate context of this verse but if the rest of scriptures.

True God refers to “him who is true” who is mentioned twice already in that verse. Not only that but when compared to John 17:3 we can see John is clearly echoing what Jesus said, that eternal life is to know both the only true God and his son Jesus Christ.

Your interpretation makes John contradict Jesus.
Jn 17:3 identifies the Father as "only true God" should exclude Jesus from being God contradicting 1 Jn 5:20 where Jesus is identified as "true God."
If the father is “the ONLY true God” then no one else can also be “true God”. You’re making Jesus a liar.
Notice how God is being used within the text. Not as a name of the Father, but in the sense of a class of being.
Right, “God” isn’t being used as proper name here, though the majority of the NT does. What Jesus is saying is that there’s only one true God and the Father is that only true God, no one else.
Jesus is identifying the Father as "only true deity" which would not exclude Jesus from being "only true deity" also. Jesus is not denying His deity but praising the Father as deity. Jn 17:1-6.
It does because of Jesus is “true deity” then the father is not the “only true deity”.
What is eternal life? According to Jesus, knowing the Father and Jesus Christ
Correct, we must know both YHWH and Jesus, the Father and his son.
Who gives eternal life? According to Jesus the One True God and Jesus Christ.
The source of eternal life is YHWH and we receive it through his so, the man Jesus Christ.
Internal consistency.
•Ro 6:23 God gives eternal life.
•Jn 5:39-40, 10:28, 11:25 and 17:2 Jesus alone gives eternal life.
•Jn 5:21, 17:3 God and Jesus Christ give eternal life.
If you read the context in John 5 it clears up your confusion.

“For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will. For the Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son… For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man.

So the son gives life because God has given him life and the authority to judge. Paul agrees in Acts 17:31

“because he (God) has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness through a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.

Who does scripture support? You post one or two verses in isolation and then build your argument from it
It’s a lot more than 1 verse and if the ones I cited above isn’t enough let me know, I have a lot more!!
vs dozens of verses in union that support the Trinity.
The verses I cited actually support what I believe word for word you can’t cite a single verse that teaches God is 3 persons in 1 being or any of that nonsense
In a court of law, which worldview would be considered true based on the evidence?
Mine, hands down.
 

JNelson

Well-known member
Keeping Jn17:3 in isolation you might have an argument, but up against the Scripture and the setting of that time you don't have an argument.
Deut. 6:4 “Hear, O Israel: YHWH our God, YHWH is one.

Deut. 18:18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers. And I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him.

Psa. 2:7 I will tell of the decree: YHWH said to me, “You are my Son; today I have begotten you.

Psa. 110:1 YHWH says to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.”

Is. 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen, in whom my soul delights; I have put my spirit upon him; he will bring forth justice to the nations.

Is. 42:8 I am YHWH; that is my name; my glory I give to no other, nor my praise to carved idols.

Is. 45:5 I am YHWH, and there is no other, besides me there is no God; I equip you, though you do not know me,

Is. 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord YHWH is upon me, because YHWH has anointed me

Matt 1:18 “Now the birth of Jesus Christ…”

Matt. 16:16-17 “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.”

Matt. 28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

Mark 12:32 “And the scribe said to him, “You are right, teacher. You have truly said that he is one, and there is no other besides him.”

Luke 8:28 “When he saw Jesus, he cried out and fell down before him and said with a loud voice, “What have you to do with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg you, do not torment me.”

John 1:49 “Nathanael answered him, “Rabbi, you are the Son of God! You are the King of Israel!”

John 4:25-26 “The woman said to him, “I know that Messiah is coming (he who is called Christ). When he comes, he will tell us all things.” Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you am he.”

John 8:40 “but now you seek to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God…”
John 8:40 “but now you seek to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God…”

John 14:1 “Believe in God; believe also in me.”

John 14:10 “The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works.”

John 17:3 “And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.”

John 20:17 “…go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.”

John 20:31 “but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name”.

Acts 2:22 “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know”

Acts 3:22, 26 “Moses said, ‘The Lord God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your brothers. You shall listen to him in whatever he tells you.” -“God, having raised up his servant, sent him to you first…”
Acts 3:22, 26 “Moses said, ‘The Lord God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your brothers. You shall listen to him in whatever he tells you.” -“God, having raised up his servant, sent him to you first…”

Acts 10:38 “God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power. He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with him”.

Acts 17:31 “because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.”

Rom. 5:15 “For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many”

Rom. 10:9 “if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved”

1 Cor. 15:21 “For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead”

1 Cor. 15:27-28 “For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. 28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.”

2 Cor. 5:19 “God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself…”

Eph. 1:17 “that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory”

Phil. 2:9-11 “Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father”

1 Tim. 2:5 “For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus”.

1 Pet. 1:20-21 “He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you who through him are believers in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.”

1 John 4:10 “In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his son to be the propitiation for our sins.”

Rev. 3:12 “The one who conquers, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God. Never shall he go out of it, and I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down from my God out of heaven, and my own new name.”
 
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