You don't have to give up your Intellect to Believe the Bible.

Whatsisface said:
But you think you will live on for eternity and atheists don't, which is the point.
Click to expand...
That doesn't make sense. That I think I will live on for eternity and that atheists don't that, is not a point, it's a fact.

It's also a fact that, regardless of what we each think our final disposition is, we can each find sunsets exceedingly precious.
 
Howie said:
That doesn't make sense. That I think I will live on for eternity and that atheists don't that, is not a point, it's a fact.
Click to expand...
It can be both, of course.
Howie said:
It's also a fact that, regardless of what we each think our final disposition is, we can each find sunsets exceedingly precious.
Click to expand...
Great. So you disagree with the Christian poster I originally replied to.
 
Howie said:
No. As I said earlier, Jesus knew exactly what He was doing.
Click to expand...
Correct. Baby-steps....
Mark 8, Matt 8, and Luke 9 Jesus is revealed as the Messiah and the Christ. What did that mean to the Jews?
Now as Matthew 15 clearly states, in the words of Jesus himself, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” as a direct reference to that prophesy, a prophesy of a Jewish Messiah for the house of Israel. That prophesy is the one eluded to in Zec 9:9. Jesus mimicked that prophesy in his entrance to Jerusalem.

Is this much clear to you?
 
5wize said:
Correct. Baby-steps....
Mark 8, Matt 8, and Luke 9 Jesus is revealed as the Messiah and the Christ. What did that mean to the Jews?
Click to expand...
Who cares. Your charge is, Jesus didn't know who He was. That's laughable. He's God, and He knew that, and being God, He determined everything about the Jews, the messiah, and salvation and all else.

As I said, it's the unbeliever who is confused about Jesus. Jesus is not confused about Jesus, neither are those believing in Him.

5wize said:
Now as Matthew 15 clearly states, in the words of Jesus himself, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” as a direct reference to that prophesy, a prophesy of a Jewish Messiah for the house of Israel. That prophesy is the one eluded to in Zec 9:9. Jesus mimicked that prophesy in his entrance to Jerusalem.

Is this much clear to you?
Click to expand...
Sigh ... OK.
 
Howie said:
Your charge is, Jesus didn't know who He was.
Click to expand...
As proven when Jesus agreed with the disciples s to his prophetic identity, disciples that knew nothing of a savior of Gentiles, and as also proven by Jesus's own words in Matt 15. Noticing your inability to address this any scriptural argument that would not itself contradict this, thus digging that hole deeper.

All you are left to do is make assertions based on your personal feelings about Jesus alone.
 
5wize said:
As proven when Jesus agreed with the disciples s to his prophetic identity, disciples that knew nothing of a savior of Gentiles, and as also proven by Jesus's own words in Matt 15. Noticing your inability to address this any scriptural argument that would not itself contradict this, thus digging that hole deeper.

All you are left to do is make assertions based on your personal feelings about Jesus alone.
Click to expand...
You made no coherent argument.Try again.



You're confused.
 
Howie said:
You made no coherent argument.Try again.



You're confused.
Click to expand...
My argument, that Jesus thought he was the Messiah of the Jewish tradition, which was not a savior of gentiles, is backed and proven by the scripture I've pointed to.

Your counter argument was "Jesus knew who he was" but was backed only by assertions based on your personal feelings alone.
 
5wize said:
My argument, that Jesus thought he was the Messiah of the Jewish tradition, which was not a savior of gentiles, is backed and proven by the scripture I've pointed to.

Your counter argument was "Jesus knew who he was" but was backed only by assertions based on your personal feelings alone.
Click to expand...
Interesting, but not true:

By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, which in other generations was not made known to mankind, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit; to be specific, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel ... Eph 3:4-6
 
Howie said:
Interesting, but not true:

By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, which in other generations was not made known to mankind, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit; to be specific, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel ... Eph 3:4-6
Click to expand...
Paul was in the business of re-inventing the failure of the prophecy based on a false " insight into the mystery of Christ". It wasn't insight as much as creative license. He even admitted trying to be everything to everybody and a creator of his own gospel.

According to Jesus's scripture and teaching, there is no reason at all to believe Paul ever represented the real Jesus.
 
5wize said:
Paul was in the business of re-inventing the failure of the prophecy based on a false " insight into the mystery of Christ". It wasn't insight as much as creative license. He even admitted trying to be everything to everybody and a creator of his own gospel.

According to Jesus's scripture and teaching, there is no reason at all to believe Paul ever represented the real Jesus.
Click to expand...
I'll use your argument: Your counter argument was "Jesus knew who he was" but was backed only by assertions based on your personal feelings alone.
 
Howie said:
I'll use your argument: Your counter argument was "Jesus knew who he was" but was backed only by assertions based on your personal feelings alone.
Click to expand...
Doesn't work though. I'm backed with scripture directly involving events with Jesus and his words. I quoted them. You are backed only by what you decide to believe. When you do quote scripture, it is not Jesus and is in immediate contradiction to other scripture reflecting the real ministry of Jesus.
 
Last edited:
5wize said:
Doesn't work though. I'm backed with scripture directly involving events with Jesus and his words. I quoted them. You are backed only by what you decide to believe. When you do quote scripture, it is not Jesus and is in immediate contradiction to other scripture reflecting the real ministry of Jesus.
Click to expand...
LOL
 
Howie said:
LOL
Click to expand...
I noticed that your unfamiliarity with your own scriptures reduce you to that response quite easily. I mean do you seriously think the mystery of Christ in Ephesians is supported by Jesus's ministry and teaching? Why is all that a mystery? Jesus had just walked and talked not too long before. What did he miss telling his real disciples (not whoever wrote Eph., which wasn't Paul)?
 
Last edited:
5wize said:
I noticed that your unfamiliarity with your own scriptures reduce you to that response quite easily. I mean do you seriously think the mystery of Christ in Ephesians is supported by Jesus's ministry and teaching? Why is all that a mystery? Jesus had just walked and talked not too long before. What did he miss telling his real disciples (not whoever wrote Eph., which wasn't Paul)?
Click to expand...
Lol
 
5wize said:
My argument, that Jesus thought he was the Messiah of the Jewish tradition, which was not a savior of gentiles, is backed and proven by the scripture I've pointed to.

Your counter argument was "Jesus knew who he was" but was backed only by assertions based on your personal feelings alone.
Click to expand...
Is this verse enough for you to know that Jesus knew that he had more than just Jews who would make up his flock? Jesus came to the Jews first and they rejected him. John1:11-12

John 10:15-16 just as the Father knows me, and I know the Father. And I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 I have other sheep that do not belong to this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd.
 
Caroljeen said:
Is this verse enough for you to know that Jesus knew that he had more than just Jews who would make up his flock? Jesus came to the Jews first and they rejected him. John1:11-12

John 10:15-16 just as the Father knows me, and I know the Father. And I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 I have other sheep that do not belong to this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd.
Click to expand...
Simply, I don't believe in the veracity of anything in the book of John concerning the real life and ministry of Jesus. It is so far removed from the synoptics that it couldn't be considered in the same genre of gospel. John, being a very late century creation, has all the earmarks of exactly what I am saying. As the promise of the kingdom and the Jewish Messiah was seen as not coming in the generation that stood before Jesus, the supernatural re-definition that was already underway from the time of Paul required a doubling down as the faithful rarely abandon their beliefs, but salvage them via reframing.

But the obvious and simple retort to the verse in John you mention would be to point out that it directly opposes the words of Jesus in Matt 15. So which one do you want to throw out? I think we are warranted to throw them both out since the prophecy Jesus understood himself to be fulfilling in Matt 15 failed and Jesus never claimed any other mission at the time. John, with its lack of association with the other gospels, its distance in time, and its hyperbolic supernatural language must be taken with a grain of salt as to its relation to Jesus as opposed to its relation to a disenfranchised cult looking for a fresher and stronger message for a failed tradition.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top