You must be called by the King

cadwell

Well-known member
I believe all of the OT is about Christ. I believe that Xerxes is a type of God the Father. Esther and Mordecai would be types of Christ. The Jewish people would be a type of the church. Haman would be a type of Satan and Hegai is a type of the Holy Spirit.
I can understand what you mean here, though I am not sure I can totally agree. Like Xerxes being the Father? Would your heavenly Father kill anyone for coming to Him?
Being one with Christ. It's a passage used in parallel with Matthew 7:21-23. If you are not known by God, there is no amount of faith, repentance, good works etc to justify a sinner before a just God.
But dont you believe God gives faith and repentance? How could it be that no amount of faith or repentance that God gives would be enough for the same God to justify you? You actually believe that God would give a person repentance and faith and still count them as unjustified? Matt 7:21-23 NEVER mentions repentance and faith, but focuses solely on works.
 

eternomade

Well-known member
I can understand what you mean here, though I am not sure I can totally agree. Like Xerxes being the Father? Would your heavenly Father kill anyone for coming to Him?
A type of the Father yes.

Yes God is just an will not allow those who are unclean to live. Jesus must make one clean by His blood in order to approach the King safely.
But dont you believe God gives faith and repentance? How could it be that no amount of faith or repentance that God gives would be enough for the same God to justify you? You actually believe that God would give a person repentance and faith and still count them as unjustified?
I do believe that God gives faith and repentance. I see this that fruit of the Spirit.

I do not believe that justification takes place at the time of faith though, but rather at the cross.

I do not believe that God saves someone but leaves them in unbelief.


Matt 7:21-23 NEVER mentions repentance and faith, but focuses solely on works.
Exactly that is why Christ tells them to depart from me. They brought their works to the King, but the King wanted to see blood. Kinda like the Passover.
 

Manfred

Well-known member
God decrees my shortcomings; is that not God's mind?
God will remove all shortcomings once this flesh is no more
You may think you are sovereign, but you are not.

There is a curse over us, and it is God that cursed us.

You should have asked me why does He then still find fault because you have shortcomings.
I can give you the answer but you just can't bear it.
Why do you not hold the truth in unrighteousness? What makes you different?
 

cadwell

Well-known member
A type of the Father yes.

Yes God is just an will not allow those who are unclean to live. Jesus must make one clean by His blood in order to approach the King safely.
What stands out in the story from Esther 4 is how God is the ultimate authority over earthly kings. Xerxes had his rules but Esther bypassed that rule for Gods purpose. I dont believe we are to elevate these earthly kings to the level of our Father in the way being done here, because it is clear who was in charge from this story. It was not Xerxes.
I do believe that God gives faith and repentance. I see this that fruit of the Spirit.

I do not believe that justification takes place at the time of faith though, but rather at the cross.

I do not believe that God saves someone but leaves them in unbelief.
I am responding to the statement you made that no amount of faith or repentance could justify a sinner if God doesnt "know" you. I am trying to determine how God gives a person repentance and faith, without "knowing" them.
Exactly that is why Christ tells them to depart from me. They brought their works to the King, but the King wanted to see blood. Kinda like the Passover.
Works arent bad, it is the fact that they believed they could be justified by works that was their destruction. While you cannot be justified by works, you are absolutely justified by faith (Rom 5:1). So saying "no amount of faith or repentance could justify a sinner" is a major issue.
 

Kampioen

Well-known member
False. You're redefining the term to fit your argument.

Draw:
  1. pull or drag (something such as a vehicle) so as to make it follow behind:
    "a cart drawn by two horses"
  2. extract (an object, especially a weapon) from a container or receptacle:
    "he drew his gun and peered into the gloomy apartment" · 
    [more]
    synonyms:
    pull out · take out · bring out · draw out · produce · fish out · extract · withdraw · unsheathe

Yes. Because scripture and the translators don't always contextually use your word the way you interpret it.

Even a dragged person can escape. And if we "drag" someone's attention then maybe He can libertarianly consider it and come. And scripture as we see presents other contexts of draw.

John 12:32 (KJV) And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will **draw all men** unto me.

Fallacy of Moving the Goalposts. Just because they did not attain to the law of righteousness, it does not then follow that they were not drawn to Christ. In Fact, he even points out that they stumbled over him. You can't stumble over what isn't right in front of you.

In Romans 9:31-32 they were at a historical time drawn to Christ but by selective hearing were now dimmed and couldn't see Him and instead stumbled over Him. But seeking by faith would not have stumbled.

Romans 9:32 (KJV) Wherefore? Because they **sought* it not by faith**, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
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But what about the other scriptures I presented in my post which you didn't answer concerning seeking before salvation. …

Acts 17:27 (KJV) That they should *seek* the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

Acts 13:42 (KJV) And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles *besought* that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

Matthew 13:45 (KJV) Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, *seeking* goodly pearls:

Matthew 7:8 (KJV) For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that *seeketh* findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

Malachi 3:1 (KJV) Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye *seek*, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
Yes. Because scripture and the translators don't always contextually use your word the way you interpret it.
Prove it.
Even a dragged person can escape.
Not when they're being pulled by a sovereign omnipotent God who's plans never come back void to him.
And if we "drag" someone's attention then maybe He can libertarianly consider it and come.
Sure, but again you're still moving the goalposts by suggesting that just because our efforts may fail, it then follows that God's would fail as well.
And scripture as we see presents other contexts of draw.
No doubt about it, yet this doesn't negate or refute my point which is that you cannot thwart God's sovereign will.
John 12:32 (KJV) And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will **draw all men** unto me.
Yup, and we have Christ's own testimony that many of them will be unknown to him, and turned away to eternal torment.
In Romans 9:31-32 they were at a historical time drawn to Christ but by selective hearing were now dimmed and couldn't see Him and instead stumbled over Him. But seeking by faith would not have stumbled.
Correction: being drawn by faith.
Romans 9:32 (KJV) Wherefore? Because they **sought* it not by faith**, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Again, they can't stumble upon Christ if they weren't drawn to him.
----
But what about the other scriptures I presented in my post which you didn't answer concerning seeking before salvation. …
They're moot points due to the fact that no one seeks after God or Christ unless God draws them. As Christ points out, "You did not choose me. I chose you." The good shepherd does not wait for the lost sheep to come back to him, but instead seeks out that which is lost, and irregardless of what they may or may not want, he picks them up and returns them to his sheepfold, for one and only one reason, i.e. They're HIS SHEEP. He owns them. He paid for them with his life. They were created FOR HIM. They're his prized possessions.
Acts 17:27 (KJV) That they should *seek* the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

Acts 13:42 (KJV) And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles *besought* that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

Matthew 13:45 (KJV) Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, *seeking* goodly pearls:

Matthew 7:8 (KJV) For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that *seeketh* findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

Malachi 3:1 (KJV) Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye *seek*, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
 

eternomade

Well-known member
I dont believe we are to elevate these earthly kings to the level of our Father in the way being done here, because it is clear who was in charge from this story. It was not Xerxes.
It's a type. Just like David was not actually Christ, He was a type of Christ. I believe all of the OT testifies of Christ.

And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.
Acts 28:23 KJV

And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which veil is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart.
2 Corinthians 3:13‭-‬15 KJV

Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
John 5:39 KJV

I am responding to the statement you made that no amount of faith or repentance could justify a sinner if God doesnt "know" you. I am trying to determine how God gives a person repentance and faith, without "knowing" them.
Those do not justify sinners. The blood of Christ justified sinners on the cross. He said it is finished and then He sat down. I've never heard of a High Priest sitting down before. Those who are justified, will come to faith and repentance by hearing the Gospel. I believe there are only two types of people, those in Christ and those in Adam. A good example would be Esau.

For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.
Hebrews 12:17 KJV

(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Romans 9:11‭-‬13 KJV

Works arent bad, it is the fact that they believed they could be justified by works that was their destruction.
Agree.

While you cannot be justified by works, you are absolutely justified by faith (Rom 5:1). So saying "no amount of faith or repentance could justify a sinner" is a major issue.
I do not agree. I do not believe one is justified by their faith. I believe that God's people are justified by Christ blood on the cross 2000 years ago. I believe they are sanctified in Christ also 2000 years ago.

I believe that faith is a metynomy for Christ.

Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Romans 5:9 KJV

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Galatians 2:16 KJV

Thanks for the good discussion.
 

Kampioen

Well-known member
Not when they're being pulled by a sovereign omnipotent God who's plans never come back void to him.

If God's plans have any bit of success then they didn't come back void.

Sure, but again you're still moving the goalposts by suggesting that just because our efforts may fail, it then follows that God's would fail as well.

God by God's method of creation doesn't always get what He planned, proven by His anger and sometimes surprise.

No doubt about it, yet this doesn't negate or refute my point which is that you cannot thwart God's sovereign will.

God's anger and surprise proves His will gets thwarted, but according to His method.

Yup, and we have Christ's own testimony that many of them will be unknown to him, and turned away to eternal torment.

Amen. Then you agree that drawing all men sometimes fails. …

John 12:32 (KJV) And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will **draw all men** unto me.

Correction: being drawn by faith.

Yes but it doesn't say predetermined faith. But many seek without a saving faith as presented below.

Again, they can't stumble upon Christ if they weren't drawn to him.

All are drawn but some stumble.

John 12:32 (KJV) And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will **draw all men** unto me.

They're moot points due to the fact that no one seeks after God or Christ unless God draws them. As Christ points out, "You did not choose me. I chose you." The good shepherd does not wait for the lost sheep to come back to him, but instead seeks out that which is lost, and irregardless of what they may or may not want, he picks them up and returns them to his sheepfold, for one and only one reason, i.e. They're HIS SHEEP. He owns them. He paid for them with his life. They were created FOR HIM. They're his prized possessions.

Well who made the following seek while unsaved then? You have no answer. Thus people can seek when unsaved.

Acts 17:27 (KJV) That they should *seek* the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

Acts 13:42 (KJV) And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles *besought* that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

Matthew 13:45 (KJV) Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, *seeking* goodly pearls:

Matthew 7:8 (KJV) For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that *seeketh* findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

Malachi 3:1 (KJV) Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye *seek*, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
If God's plans have any bit of success then they didn't come back void.
If God plans on saving the whole world, and he doesn't then his plans came back void. When you purchase a drink, but the bartender hands you a glass that is less than a third full of liquid, you didn't get what you paid for. Christ pays with his life, and we are informed that not one single person will be lost which God has intended for Christ.
God by God's method of creation doesn't always get what He planned, proven by His anger and sometimes surprise.
God's anger and surprise proves His will gets thwarted, but according to His method.
The only thing this proves is your ignorance of figures of speech such as Condescension, or Anthropomorphisms etc.
Amen. Then you agree that drawing all men sometimes fails. …
Not at all. They're all drawn to him just as God intended.
John 12:32 (KJV) And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will **draw all men** unto me.
And many will stumble upon him. Again, as I already pointed out no one can stumble if they're not drawn to him in the first place.
Yes but it doesn't say predetermined faith.
That's the only faith that can save anyone.
But many seek without a saving faith as presented below.
Those who seek without a saving faith are not seeking with any faith to begin with.
All are drawn but some stumble.
And no one can stumble upon Christ without being drawn to him in the first place. Through his crucifixion, he has become the judge of all, and therefore all must be drawn before him to face his judgment. Those on his right to eternal life, and those on his left to utter destruction.
John 12:32 (KJV) And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will **draw all men** unto me.



Well who made the following seek while unsaved then? You have no answer.
If they're predestined for salvation, then it is God. However, how do you know they're not saved?
Thus people can seek when unsaved.
Nope. No one seeks after God or righteousness. As Paul points out "no, not one".
Acts 17:27 (KJV) That they should *seek* the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
Who does he mean by "us"? The unsaved, or the saved?
Acts 13:42 (KJV) And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles *besought* that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
Notice that he is NOT speaking to the Jews anymore, but only to those who are seeking the gospel message. How can the damned seek the gospel message when Paul points out that no one seeks after God? It only makes sense when we see Christ point out that it is the Father that draws those He has chosen for salvation.
Matthew 13:45 (KJV) Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, *seeking* goodly pearls:
Yep, and those who are not merchants do not seek pearls. See how that works?
Matthew 7:8 (KJV) For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that *seeketh* findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
And there are plenty who will never seek or ask or knock. Again, see how that works?
Malachi 3:1 (KJV) Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye *seek*, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
 

Kampioen

Well-known member
Who does he mean by "us"? The unsaved, or the saved?

If they're seeking and feeling after Him then they are not saved yet, so the us are unsaved.

Acts 17:27 (KJV) That they should *seek* the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

Notice that he is NOT speaking to the Jews anymore, but only to those who are seeking the gospel message. How can the damned seek the gospel message when Paul points out that no one seeks after God? It only makes sense when we see Christ point out that it is the Father that draws those He has chosen for salvation.

The point is that those (Acts 13:42) who are seeking are all the while not saved. See how that works?

Acts 13:42 (KJV) And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles *besought* that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

Yep, and those who are not merchants do not seek pearls. See how that works?

But the point is he is seeking without yet having the pearl ie while yet unsaved. See how that works?

Matthew 13:45 (KJV) Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, *seeking* goodly pearls:

And there are plenty who will never seek or ask or knock. Again, see how that works?

The point is that they seek without yet having. See how that works?

Matthew 7:8 (KJV) For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that *seeketh* findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

Kampioen said:
Malachi 3:1 (KJV) Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye *seek*, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts

You didn't answer this. The point is that they were seeking the Lord thus didn't find Him yet. See how that works?
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
If they're seeking and feeling after Him then they are not saved yet, so the us are unsaved.
You might want to read it again. The "they" isn't a reference to the subsequent "us".
Acts 17:27 (KJV) That they should *seek* the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
Again, pay close attention to the two incidences of "they" which are then contrasted with the final "us". Furthermore, no one can seek Christ unless they're drawn by the father.
The point is that those (Acts 13:42) who are seeking are all the while not saved. See how that works?
The carnal man cannot seek Christ or seek to be saved. See how that works?
But the point is he is seeking without yet having the pearl ie while yet unsaved. See how that works?
Nope. The carnal man cannot seek after God. Romans 3:10-12
Matthew 13:45 (KJV) Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, *seeking* goodly pearls:
And no one but a qualified merchant can ever know the difference between counterfeit or quality pearls.
The point is that they seek without yet having. See how that works?
No one can seek what they never knew in the first place. See how that works? How can one who doesn't believe seek Christ?
Matthew 7:8 (KJV) For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that *seeketh* findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.



You didn't answer this. The point is that they were seeking the Lord thus didn't find Him yet. See how that works?
The damned cannot seek Christ in the first place. See how that works?
 

Kampioen

Well-known member
You might want to read it again. The "they" isn't a reference to the subsequent "us".

Again, pay close attention to the two incidences of "they" which are then contrasted with the final "us". Furthermore, no one can seek Christ unless they're drawn by the father.

The carnal man cannot seek Christ or seek to be saved. See how that works?

Nope. The carnal man cannot seek after God. Romans 3:10-12

And no one but a qualified merchant can ever know the difference between counterfeit or quality pearls.

No one can seek what they never knew in the first place. See how that works? How can one who doesn't believe seek Christ?

The damned cannot seek Christ in the first place. See how that works?

Are you saying all those seekers are spiritual men?
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
Are you saying all those seekers are spiritual men?
No one can seek Christ unless God draw them. God does not draw the carnal man to Christ for salvation. God draws the carnal man to destruction. The destruction of the mind, soul, body and spirit is a spiritual act of God.
 

fltom

Well-known member
No one can seek Christ unless God draw them. God does not draw the carnal man to Christ for salvation. God draws the carnal man to destruction. The destruction of the mind, soul, body and spirit is a spiritual act of God.
Er The Corinthians were carnal

1 Corinthians 3:1–4 (KJV 1900) — 1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. 3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? 4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

Calvinists claim even the redeemed Paul was carnal

Romans 7:14–25 (KJV 1900) — 14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
 
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