Go do what I suggested. Then you'll know you're wrong about Jn 12:32. 🙂
You must be called by the King
- Thread starter eternomade
- Start date
CrowCross
Super Member
Some pro-abortion people are DRAWN to pro-life rallies simply to disturb the rally.
personally I think the "drawing" goes both ways. Some for salvation...others not.
So Howie judges scripture based on what men believe ?
Theo1689
Well-known member
So you're saying you can be drawn to Jesus while hating or being indifferent to Jesus?
I am saying scripture is true
LOL. I haven't judged scripture at all, but @PeanutGallery's wrong understanding of Jn 12:32. 😏. Thanks for asking.
Carbon
Well-known member
🤪They must of missed that verse
And your proof is the opinion of men who are unsaved
Correct. By not being drawn to Christ, unsaved men will prove that you @PeanutGallery, and the rest of them who are wrong in their understanding of Jn 12:32, wrong in your understanding of Jn 12:32.
👍
Our Lord's God
Well-known member
It seems you were not listening to Jesus very well.
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name cast out demons, and in your name do many miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you who practice lawlessness.’ 24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and does them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.
Manfred
Well-known member
Joh 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
Do you believe this passage.
Jesus says it, not me. He WILL raise those whom the Father draws to Jesus on the last day.
I am not claiming unconditional salvation. That would be your claim, which you are trying to project onto me. I am claiming the Biblical condition of " unless the Father draws him"
In your doctrine you want to leave out/ignore that Jesus gives that condition, because it just does not fit with your doctrine of freedom of choice.
You could of course argue that all will be raised on the last day anyway, and that it does not refer to salvation.
Joh 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.
So either universal salvation, or conditional salvation based on what the Father does and not on what man does.
Now back to what I said:
If the drawing is for all men as you claim, why did Jesus say it refers to "all those who are drawn by God" and that they will come.
You boasted in a thread that you judge false doctrine, but as shown above you clearly contradict Jesus, and you seem to boast in that doctrine that is a clear contradiction to what Jesus is teaching.
Manfred
Well-known member
And you would be wrong again. I never claimed that salvation is unconditional. That statement by the other poster was deliberately deceitful and false.it doesn't as calvinism results in confusion, contradictions and conflating. the 3 C's.
It points to not only his, but also your character and the utter lack of integrity you both have.
You can can claim Tu quoque as much as you want, the fact will remain that the other poster clearly stated something I never stated, and that the confusion and contradiction is only in his mind and in yours.
I did however respond to his deliberate deceit, and wonder if the truth of scripture will ever have an impact on either of you.
You should stop falsely accusing me and others of being confused, and contradictory, rather show me how my response to the other poster shows a contradiction that leads to confusion.
You do know that giving false witness is a sin and shows what is truly in your heart.
Mat_15:19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander.
Manfred
Well-known member
Who are those who "seeth the Son" in those passages...
You deliberately exclude those passages in order to present a premise that those who "seeth" are those who choose to "seeth"
The truth is that, that premise is not contained in that passage.
Rather it is clear as per my previous post that the condition is "those that the Father gives the Son" are those that "seeth" and not those that choose to "seeth", "seeth"
So please explain to me where I am wrong. What am I missing in my reading of those scriptures for you to falsely accuse me of saying salvation is unconditional?
Manfred
Well-known member
Why do you accuse someone of having to have gnostic understanding? What did you gain from that apart from the accolades of what seems to be a very confused individual?
Why do you assume it to be merely a simple statement? Is context, exegesis and a good hermeneutic not allowed to understand scripture, even if you want to define it as "simple"?
This sort of thing is of course a typical tactic used by cults such as the Mormons and JW's to prevent the whole teaching and context of scripture to be presented, thereby containing their false premises and teachings and defending their position within single passages of scripture. They also employ the tactic of reading their false premises into scripture, known as eisegesis.
Your false accusation therefore is that it is gnostic when I or another poster for example use exegesis in the immediate context, the context of the chapter, the context where Jesus/inspired writer spoke on the same subject of the verse in question in another passage, and what the Bible as a whole teaches on the matter, then I/we are gnostic in our reading of scripture?
It seems to me that you are under the impression that you are dealing only with immature, clueless individuals, and that you are somehow superior in knowledge and understanding, and only require a simple statement to know all truth on a doctrine. If I am mistaken, then please show me correct me.
So your fidelity is not to the word of God but of man
You are lost, Tom -- lost. 😏
PeanutGallery
Well-known member
John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
1Cor 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
Manfred
Well-known member
How does this in any ways or means address what I showed you clearly in scripture, and how does this negate the fact that you lied about me.
I am not sure but I presume you still think by sharing these scriptures it somehow shows you choosing to believe is the condition, when scripture clearly shows it is the choice of God by whom He chooses to draw.
Those who believe, those who He saves are those the Father draws to the Son.
Those who do not believe, those who He does not save, are not drawn to the Son by the Father.
If you want to dispute that then try your very best, I agree with all scripture.
Those who are drawn to the Son by the Father are those who will believe and see.
Those whom are drawn to the Son by the Father are those who He will save, they will believe through the foolishness of what is preached.
PeanutGallery
Well-known member
God draws all men
John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
God saves those who believe:
1Cor 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
God does not draw men in order to believe.
True, yet he doesn't draw all to salvation. Those who stand there presenting their works are drawn to Christ, but he doesn't know them.