Your explainations please

rossh

Well-known member
what am I paraphrasing?!?!? where?!?! you sound like an insufferable clown. "I alWays Pray sO i KNow ExaCTly WhatS uP, yOU dONT" Grow up. You are likely wrong, and probably use this paraphrasing argument all the time...but! don't worry! you know "for sure" cuz...you (no one else) pray to God before your dead the bible...got it.
Well said, not true at all in any of course. It does not harm you to be nice about this. If this your churches attitude towards your fellow man eh then no need to say any more, right ? Hatred and lies, spite and derision ? By the way, this is how you advertise your false religion I guess. God is love and God gives us His undeserved love to all of us..
Paraphrasing is when you cite your own opinions about the Word of God, trying to be as God is and trying to fool the unwary as you have been fooled.. well,, so it seems ?
 

rossh

Well-known member
[1Pe 3:21 NIV] 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also--not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
[1Pe 3:21 ESV] 21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
[1Pe 3:21 NKJV] 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
[1Pe 3:21 NASB95] 21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Stick to the KJV where you can misuse figure? The meaning of "figure" is a person or event in the Old Testament that becomes reality in the New Testament. An example of this is the manna from the Old Testament is a figure to the Eucharist in the New Testament and today.


“The like figure”ἀντίτυπονCorresponding ("antitype"), i.e., a representative, counterpart

Nice try though.
Scriptures please... ? none, thought so......?
 

rossh

Well-known member
Hello

I direct your Attention to
Acts 10:44-48

Why does Peter still baptize Cornelius with water after he receives the Holy spirit?

I am interested in reading the different takes.
well it is easy, so take this;
Acts 10: 42 He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead. 43 All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. 46 For they heard them speaking in tongues[b] and praising God.

Then Peter said, 47 “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” 48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.

You have to READ the full passage and ask GOD to help you understand.. The circumcised are the JEWS the Gentiles are the Gentiles. Peter and his crew, the Jews, believed that the Messiah came to save Israel ONLY!!! This miracle sign proved Peter wrong in that take! God bless you..
 

Abounds

Active member
You said that Jesus said I was wrong. I doubt that very much!

You are not noticing that it says that those that disbelieve shall be condemned. It says nothing about being not baptised condemning you.
Yes...because if you dont believe, you dont get baptized. You must have a serious reading comprehension problem. Must kick in when you are being shown scripture that clearly states baptism saves. THOSE WHO DISBELIEVE WOULDNT NEED TO BE BAPTIZED TO BE SAVED, THEREFORE CONDEMMED.
Women get baptized but they didn't get circumcised. Where are you going with that?
You are being serious right now? Circumcision was a covenant with the line of Abraham, and all the men had to be circumcised to have their place in the covenant. Christ's baptism doesn't have anything to do with genitals. that's not an argument or a point. its just you embarrassing yourself. But if you want to look like you don't understand the Abrahamic covenant then that's cool with me.
Again, women get baptized but they didn't get circumcised. Where are you going with that?
Again, the point is that you follow what God says, Obviously, women do not have Penisis, and cant have physical circumcision, but The bible talks about that's specific covenant as being passed on through the men. This is the lamest duck attempt to argue against clear scripture.
[Gen 17:10 ]10 "This is My covenant, which you shall keep, between Me and you and your descendants after you: every male among you shall be circumcised.
This also doesn't exclude women from being in that covenant, but that's wasn't the point of it was it, you know that right? The point was to bring about Jacob, Christ. You know these Important to Gods plan Characters.,...you are being purposefully stupid to not have to actually challenge the points here. Paul says we are circumcised by the circumcision of Christ, he draws a line to being in the New covenant, with christ, through his circumcision, which is received through baptism, it says nothing about genders..."ALL NATIONS" is what Christ says. You point is a fools point and does nothing for you.
God was raising him from the dead, which is symbolized in baptism.
You are directing this at nothing. You are purposefully misreading what Paul says, don't worry I am sure Is it dead, and reply you will purposefully misunderstand paul when he basically says the exact same thing again.
I will add more to another post.

I will add more to another post.
Lets hope so, Its obvious you are getting outclassed by someone with a proper theological background.
Acts 2:21 and it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved
Joel 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.

We were saved before we were burried with him Salvation is always before baptism because we are saved by grace; not baptism.
If you believe and are baptized you will be saved. Now you are going to the grace argument huh? I won't even bother wreaking you on this one...but The Means of Grace...is something you should familiarize yourself with because that comment is ridiculous and the doctrine behind it is biblical. AND EASY TO UNDERSTAND..There are a few different thoughts on how it operates, but they all include baptism.
For by a virtue coming from God, the unmerited divine assistance given to humans for their regeneration or sanctification are you saved and that not of yourselves it is the voluntarily transferred by one person to another without compensation not of performance of moral or religious acts lest any man should boast.
Baptism is God's work through the resurrection of christ. Jesus the son of God, says If you believe and are baptized you will be saved. Again, you have disbelief you don't get baptized skip "go" and head straight to jail. Thats exactly how someone who knows how to read sentences would read it.
You make the disciples (believers) then you baptise the believers.

I encourage you to study the word "grace" and see that there is nothing to save you but grace.
Oh right because you think Baptism isn't God's work, therefore not his Grace. Paul says you are wrong, you willfully ignored it.

Also, you hardly use any scripture referencing Baptism to refute the clear scripture where it says it saves you. I also like to point out, You don't have any real arguments against it except for your own poor understanding of Grace, which comes from your poor interpretation of clear biblical passages.
 

Abounds

Active member
well it is easy, so take this;
Acts 10: 42 He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead. 43 All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. 46 For they heard them speaking in tongues[b] and praising God.

Then Peter said, 47 “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” 48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.

You have to READ the full passage and ask GOD to help you understand.. The circumcised are the JEWS the Gentiles are the Gentiles. Peter and his crew, the Jews, believed that the Messiah came to save Israel ONLY!!! This miracle sign proved Peter wrong in that take! God bless you..
still not interested in whatever it is you are mischaracterizing or not understanding from whatever it is you see in the posts you quoted. Go bother someone else. Please and Thanks
 

Saxon

Active member
[1Pe 3:21 NIV] 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also--not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
The water killed everything. The only ones that were saved were the ones in the ark The ark represents Christ. As Christians we are IN Christ. (the ark) Eternal life is in Christ. In the flood life was in the ark.
[1Pe 3:21 ESV] 21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
[1Pe 3:21 NKJV] 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
[1Pe 3:21 NASB95] 21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Stick to the KJV where you can misuse figure? The meaning of "figure" is a person or event in the Old Testament that becomes reality in the New Testament. An example of this is the manna from the Old Testament is a figure to the Eucharist in the New Testament and today.
The like figure of baptism, that saves us, is the death burial and resurrection of Jesus which is what baptism demonstrates.
“The like figure”ἀντίτυπονCorresponding ("antitype"), i.e., a representative, counterpart

Nice try though.
Maybe you should try harder?
 

rossh

Well-known member
Scriptures please... ? none, thought so......?
Well please, some relevant Scripture please ? No ? Same ole same ole... We are trying to save your lost soul ? The Word of God alone not the word of cultish fiends..
 

rossh

Well-known member
The water killed everything. The only ones that were saved were the ones in the ark The ark represents Christ. As Christians we are IN Christ. (the ark) Eternal life is in Christ. In the flood life was in the ark.

The like figure of baptism, that saves us, is the death burial and resurrection of Jesus which is what baptism demonstrates.

Maybe you should try harder?
The Ark represents Christ ? so where is the Ark ? what ever happened to the Ark then ?
 

Saxon

Active member
Yes...because if you dont believe, you dont get baptized. You must have a serious reading comprehension problem. Must kick in when you are being shown scripture that clearly states baptism saves. THOSE WHO DISBELIEVE WOULDNT NEED TO BE BAPTIZED TO BE SAVED, THEREFORE CONDEMMED.
What are you saying? There is no scripture that says baptism saves. God Saves by grace, That is it. God saving by grace does not allow any thing else to be involved in the salvation transaction. You seem to have a comprehension problem with the term "grace" you don't know what it means.
You are being serious right now? Circumcision was a covenant with the line of Abraham, and all the men had to be circumcised to have their place in the covenant. Christ's baptism doesn't have anything to do with genitals. that's not an argument or a point. its just you embarrassing yourself. But if you want to look like you don't understand the Abrahamic covenant then that's cool with me.
Your the one that is not being serious. You are connecting baptism to circumcision and there is no comparison. The only thing that I will say is that Abraham we counted righteous before he was circumcised.
Again, the point is that you follow what God says, Obviously, women do not have Penisis, and cant have physical circumcision, but The bible talks about that's specific covenant as being passed on through the men. This is the lamest duck attempt to argue against clear scripture.
[Gen 17:10 ]10 "This is My covenant, which you shall keep, between Me and you and your descendants after you: every male among you shall be circumcised.
This also doesn't exclude women from being in that covenant, but that's wasn't the point of it was it, you know that right? The point was to bring about Jacob, Christ. You know these Important to Gods plan Characters.,...you are being purposefully stupid to not have to actually challenge the points here. Paul says we are circumcised by the circumcision of Christ, he draws a line to being in the New covenant, with christ, through his circumcision, which is received through baptism, it says nothing about genders..."ALL NATIONS" is what Christ says. You point is a fools point and does nothing for you.

You are directing this at nothing. You are purposefully misreading what Paul says, don't worry I am sure Is it dead, and reply you will purposefully misunderstand paul when he basically says the exact same thing again.
Again circumcision and baptism do not compare. Apples and bananas
Lets hope so, Its obvious you are getting outclassed by someone with a proper theological background.
Yes, a little help from the pep squad. Were you looking in the mirror when you wrote that?

If you believe and are baptized you will be saved. Now you are going to the grace argument huh? I won't even bother wreaking you on this one...but The Means of Grace...is something you should familiarize yourself with because that comment is ridiculous and the doctrine behind it is biblical. AND EASY TO UNDERSTAND..There are a few different thoughts on how it operates, but they all include baptism.
The only means of grace is Jesus Christ. He did all the work and you get all the good that came with the grace.
Baptism is God's work through the resurrection of christ. Jesus the son of God, says If you believe and are baptized you will be saved. Again, you have disbelief you don't get baptized skip "go" and head straight to jail. Thats exactly how someone who knows how to read sentences would read it.
Read the sentence and compare it with the rest of scripture to gain the meaning.
Oh right because you think Baptism isn't God's work, therefore not his Grace. Paul says you are wrong, you willfully ignored it.
He made it clear that we are to baptise, he told us to go and make disciples and told us to baptise them. How do you think that it is God's work when he told us to do it? It must be the results of your proper theological background.
Also, you hardly use any scripture referencing Baptism to refute the clear scripture where it says it saves you. I also like to point out, You don't have any real arguments against it except for your own poor understanding of Grace, which comes from your poor interpretation of clear biblical passages.
I posted something with 14 verses that you are unable to handle because of your proper theological background.
 

Saxon

Active member
How am I misquoting Jesus. Did I not give you a passage from the bible? I think it's you who are being ignorant. Let's investigate what the word of God says about water baptism, shall we?
I didn't say that you were ignorant, I said that you were ignoring scriptures.
 

Kade Rystalmane

Well-known member
Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
This passage does not speak of Holy Spirit immersion, nor even the kind of indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Having the spirit of Christ is akin to having the mind of Christ (1 Cor. 2:16). It's about being Christlike. There is nothing in this context that demands similarity to the supernatural events of Acts 2 and 10.
1 Peter 3:20 which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

The like figure of baptism in water also saves us. How does it save us? Is it the water that saves or the thing that it is a figure of? It was not the water that saved the 8 persons of verse 20. It was the ark that saved them from drowning in the flood. So, baptism in water does not save the soul, but faith in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, that which baptism is a figure of does save the soul. (See 1 Corinthians 15:1-4; Colossians 1:20-22)
It really was the water that saved them. It literally says at the end of verse 20 "eight souls were saved by water." They weren't saved from the Flood. They were saved by it. The wickedness is what they were saved from. It's the whole point of the parallel between the two verses. Saved from sin by water. Read Genesis 6-9.

If you are going to insist that they were saved by the ark, that's even worse for you because that makes the parallel mean that mankind is saved wholly by his own effort. Man built the ark. God did not build it or even help build it. God sent the water, though to destroy the sinful men in the world and cleanse the world of sin. That is literally the whole story of the Flood. Again, read Genesis 6-9.

It isn't any supernatural power the water has, either. H2O isn't special in and of itself else every person who ever goes swimming is saved. You guys should get that out of your head because it's a straw argument. Water immersion saves because it's an act of obedient faith based in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Paul talks about this exact thing in Romans 6 and shows how this is the core of the gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. So water immersion saves not because water is special, but because it is commanded. If God had said be immersed in sand, then we'd have to be immersed in sand instead because that's what God commanded, not because sand is special.

You guys need to frame your opponent's position properly. Show some understanding of it if you are going to argue against it. Otherwise, you're just beating at straw.
1 Corinthians 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
1 Corinthians 15:2 by which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
1 Corinthians 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1 Corinthians 15:4 and that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Colossians 1:20 and, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
Colossians 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
Colossians 1:22 in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

A mere figure can have no power to save, but the reality of the figure can. Peter, lest some should trust in water baptism to save the soul makes it very clear that baptism does not save one from the filth or moral depravity of the flesh. He shows it to be only the answer of a good conscience toward God, one that has been made clean by faith in the resurrection of Jesus Christ (See verse 21).
You seem to have no idea what that word "figure" actually means. The word in the Greek is "antitupos" which we call "antitype". In the Bible there is a type/antitype system between the Old and New Testaments. The types are the metaphors, the symbols, the signs pointing to the spiritual realities of the antitypes. Moses and David were types of Christ. Christ is the antitype. Egypt was a type for slavery to sin to help us understand actual bondage to sin. The Levitical priesthood as representatives of all the tribes (Numbers 3:41) as an antitype for the priesthood of all believers. And so on. These types are incomplete, partial, only telling one or two aspects of the nature of the antitype. Obviously Moses was not a perfect picture of Christ because Moses was neither priest nor king. He was deliverer, prophet, lawgiver, and shepherd and taught us about Christ in regard to those things.

There are a number of types pointing to the New Testament antitype of water immersion. The Flood, the ceremonial washings of the priests, the washing of Naaman in the Jordan, even John's immersion. They teach the destruction of sin and salvation of the obedient faithful, the cleansing and sanctifying, and the purifying. But the antitype, water immersion, doth also now save us by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Why? Because we are buried with Him in water baptism and like as Christ was raised up from the grave of earth, we are raised up from the grave of water to walk in newness of life.

It is not just a mere figure. Your statement to that effect is gross ignorance.
It is clear here that at baptism the conscience is already supposed to be good and clean and baptism merely answers to it. As the waters of the flood could not have saved these 8 persons, had they not made use of the ark, so the water of baptism does not save the soul of anyone, but testifies figuratively to the salvation that comes by faith.
Conscience does not equal spirit. A good conscience is one that is no longer seared, no longer wrongfully educated that everything is fine. The cleared conscience is one that is properly educated on what to do. That's what the Greek uses the term "epirotema" that answer to that which is demanded. The properly educated conscience is penitent, has godly sorrow and has turned from evil towards salvation (2 Cor 7:10). That conscience knows what must be done and demands the proper action to be saved. Water immersion is the answer to that demand. Why? Because that's what is necessary to actually be saved. Faith, repentance, confession are all unto salvation. But water immersion saves.
Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Correct. Because the gospel tells us what we must do to be saved. If you don't believe it, you won't follow the instructions in it.
Romans 3:24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Romans 3:25 whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
God's grace is the gospel plan of salvation. So yes. Great verse. How does grace save us? Through obedient faith, not dead faith.
Romans 10:9 that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Romans 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
(Dake)
Great verse. Unto. Belief and confession are "unto" salvation. Unto means that they are on the journey to the destination, but they aren't at the destination. If I were to point to I10 in Florida and says this goes to San Antonio, that doesn't mean as soon as you got on I10 in Florida you'd be in San Antonio. If I say Alabama, Mississippi, and Louisianna are on the way to Texas from Florida, arriving in any one of those states does not put you in Texas.

Hearing the word, believing it, confessing Christ before men, and repentance are all on the road to salvation and absolutely necessary to get there. It's part of why infant "baptism" is a sham. They never make the journey required, nor can they (nor do they need to). But water immersion actually saves. It's the point we come into contact with the blood of Christ (1 John 5:6,8) the point we are buried with Him and raised up like Him recreated (Romans 6:3-7) and reborn (John 3:3,5).

Not one of these passages, though, says that Holy Spirit immersion saves.
 

Kade Rystalmane

Well-known member
Pretty much in the verse that was presented. They were saved as evidenced by the Holy Spirit...then baptism followed.
That's not what the passage says at all. In fact, the word "saved" or its derivatives is nowhere in that passage.
There is also Acts 16:30 Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, you and your household.”....No mention of baptism.
Keep reading...

32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.


You guys are notorious for cherry-picking instead of applying all verses in context of a topic. Why does believing save? Because if you believe what Jesus says, you will do what He commanded and be saved (Matt. 7:21; John 14:15-24; James 2:24). Faith alone can't save because it's dead.

Romans 10;9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.....no mention of baptism. Next verse...
For with your heart you believe and are justified, and with your mouth you confess and are saved....once again no mention of baptism.....There's more.
Except you forgot about chapter 6 that was earlier in the letter which you have to take as a whole instead of cherry-picking.
There is like 4 explanations for what "water" means in that verse.
In this verse I believe water = Spirit.
Some say it is the Word of God
Some say water is embryonic fluid.
Some say it means water baptism.
I believe water means water. Everyone else is just pushing meaning into the text so they don't have to believe Jesus means what He says. They don't want to believe water immersion saves and so they start with that conclusion and then interpret verses to match what they already believe. That's called eisegesis.

If water = spirit then Christ is being redundant saying that one must be born again of spirit and spirit. So you are incorrect.
Personally I wouldn't use the verse to defend water baptism is required.
You personally don't use any verses to defend that water immersion is required.
It also mentions it as a symbol.
No. It doesn't. Go learn what the word antitupos means.
It speaks of the washing of sins of the church...by His blood. (1 John 1:7)
Yes. He's not talking about the building.
Your job of showing water baptism is a requirement for salvation would be easier if there actualy was a clear cut teaching of it in the bible. If it is so important...a requirement...why isn't there a chapter about it?
Romans 6.
 

Abounds

Active member
The water killed everything. The only ones that were saved were the ones in the ark The ark represents Christ. As Christians we are IN Christ. (the ark) Eternal life is in Christ. In the flood life was in the ark..
Christ is the ark, what is the water it's weird it mentioned at all right?? Why does the Ark tell you to get baptized and included that with Believe? He wouldn't say it if it wasn't supposed to be said.
In the flood life was the ark. Sure. But in the scripture, you are no longer trying to talk about.

[1Pe 3:20-21 ] 20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through [the] water. 21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

It says through the water. It also says Baptism NOW saves you, I notice you ignored that, along with the part where it references the days of Noah.
[Gen 9:15] 15 and I will remember My covenant, which is between Me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and never again shall the water become a flood to destroy all flesh.

Corresponding
1.have a close similarity; match or agree almost exactly.
"the carved heads described in the poem correspond to those in the drawing"
communicate by exchanging letters.
"Margaret corresponded with him until his death"

The Water is The saving Grace of God. Jesus is The ark we put the faith in. "We are in him when we are in the faith"

[1Pe 3:20-21 KJV] 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 21 The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Please stop ignoring verse 20 even in the KJV the water is what's Saved. But you keep going with your "interpretations" that obviously float on your own bathwater. Jesus tells you, Believers who are baptized are saved, then says disbelievers are condemned, well yeah obviously baptism isn't going to do anything then.
The like figure of baptism, that saves us, is the death burial and resurrection of Jesus which is what baptism demonstrates.
Saved By grace, God's Grace through Faith in Christ. Christ's resurrection is whats brings us to our salvation which is faith in GOD who saves you through grace. God sent his only begotten son. God's Grace is the water thats saves us through faith in Christ the ark.... We are baptized not as a symbol but because Christ instituted it to be done in the name of The Father The Son and The Holy Spirit. He also said that Whoever so believes in me and is baptized, will be saved.

[Act 22:16] 16 'Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.'
I noticed you just posted random Acts Passages as some sort of argument where they still reference calling on the name of the lord. I picked this passage because it describes Baptism as calling on his name. It doesn't say it's a symbol or faith.


Maybe you should try harder?
How so?

I read your "newest" post but it's identical to the argument you already made for the most part, but also with the same poor interpretation It's a lot of your own opinion again. You still use mostly passages that don't talk about baptism, to refute clear scripture where it does. Then you butcher peter. Water is God's Grace. the Ark is Christ whom we put faith in. The water is whats saves, as peter clearly states. He also clearly states Baptism NOW saves you. Jesus also put it as a prerequisite to being saved. You don't do much but read it in a way to refute it. I don't deny the scriptures you're producing, only that they, I just don't think you quite get the importance of how its God's Grace thats saves us, which is the water, which is what Paul says,.

[Rom 6:4-6] 4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have become united with [Him] in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be [in the likeness] of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with [Him,] in order that our body of sin might be done away with so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;

[Col 2:11-13] 11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; 12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions

All you said is God raised him from the dead...which symbolized baptism?!?!? what?

In Romans, Paul says This "Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life."

Again in Corinthians " having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead."

Did not say symbol or anything of the sort. He is talking about baptism. and HAVE been and HAVING BEEN. This isn't a Pauline allegory he is telling you what happened and how.
 

Kade Rystalmane

Well-known member
Why is it that the natural man cannot receive from the Spirit of God? …We are all in sin and spiritually dead prior to salvation.
I reject this entirely. The natural man is psychikos anthropos and literally deals with that which draws breath. It's talking about the biological self. The natural man doesn't receive spiritual things for the same reason a cat doesn't recieve spiritual things. It's a physical entity. Spiritual things are only discerned by spiritual creatures. Our bodies, if were not different from the animals, could not understand the teachings of scripture. I can't teah my dog the gospel and save my dog. Why? Because my dog is not made in the image of God. Mankind is the only Creation that is made in God's image. It's what separates us from every other thing, even every other living thing. Yet it is our physical self, our biological self from which temporal desires are born. That's great. That's how God made us. But when we let those biological desires control us to the point where they become our master, to where they are inordinate desires, then we sin. We should be controlled by our spirit, that part of us made in the image of God. That's the part that receives the things of God.

It has nothing to do with original sin, hereditary sin, or any related topics.

John 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
John 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
John 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

The concept that this passage is affirming water baptism as a means of salvation is pure assumption. Nicodemus understood it as a conversation about birth. (See John 3:4) The text does not mention or even hint of baptism. The problem with some is as soon as they see water mentioned anywhere near salvation they stop reading and start to assume.
No. Nicodemus was confused because he knew a man could not be physically reborn. Such an idea was absurd. That's why he asked the question he asked. Jesus could NOT have been talking about being born again physically. Jesus is talking of being born again to see the kingdom of God. Jesus is talking about rebirth. When Jesus clarifies how this rebirth happens, He says it is of water and of the spirit. It's a spiritual rebirth, not a physical one. That's exactly what He clarifies in verse 6. Your body is not being reborn of water. Your spirit is.
To be born again is speaking of a second birth. The first birth is to be born of water (born of the flesh), the birth of the body. The second birth is to be born of the Spirit (John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.), to make your spirit alive so the connection between God (Spirit) and the soul can be established. When a man is born again, born of the spirit then the spiritual man can receive the things of the Spirit of God.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

This is the parallel:
John 3:5 born of water equates to John 3:6 born of the flesh.
John 3:5 born of the Spirit equates to John 3:6 born of Spirit is spirit.
No. Water does not flesh. The oceans of the world are not filled with human flesh - ew. It's not a parallel or even something that makes any sense. The correct parallel is 3 and 5.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Again = of water and of the spirit.
Born of water is to be born of the flesh. This is the first birth. (“Water” surrounds the fetus before birth) Born of the Spirit is the second birth, (born again) spiritually dead to spiritually alive.
Eisegesis. You are as confused as Nicodemus.
What is being born again mean? Notice what Nicodemus said, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?” He knew what being born of water was, the first birth or born of the flesh. (John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh) A second birth is another term use to describe born again; Two births are being referred to, (1) Natural birth, (2) Spiritual birth. Without the first birth there is no need of a second birth and no need for entrance to heaven.
You are as confused as Nicodemus.
In the vane [sic] attempt to promote born of water to water baptism Ephesians 5:26 is at times used to support the baptism thought.

Ephesians 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it (the Church) with the washing of water by the word,

Born again speaks of coming into the church, Ephesians 5:26 speaks of something happening to the church.

If you are not born again you are not part of the church and Ephesians 5:26 is of no effect to those outside the church

Born again, being part of the church, Ephesians 5:26 is of effect to only those inside the church
He's not talking about the building here.

Water sanctifies (cleanses, makes pure) the church, which is the people. It's how the church was made the body of the saved. What you are arguing is that the church was at one time a body of people, an organization where they were already in the church, but not pure yet, then the water was applied to the whole church and purified it. You're digger your own hole deeper here trying so hard to avoid what the scriptures plainly teach.
John 3:5 Born of water is not related to water or word in Ephesians 5:26. Born again is to become part of the Church. Ephesians 5:26 is a cleansing of the church, to clean a sinner to salvation blood is required, not water.
Instead, we are to believe that the church as a whole was somehow not pure and after individuals were born again they became part of an impure collective body that was somehow later purified by water...its getting pretty ridiculous in here.
 

CrowCross

Super Member
That's not what the passage says at all. In fact, the word "saved" or its derivatives is nowhere in that passage.

Keep reading...

32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.


You guys are notorious for cherry-picking instead of applying all verses in context of a topic. Why does believing save? Because if you believe what Jesus says, you will do what He commanded and be saved (Matt. 7:21; John 14:15-24; James 2:24). Faith alone can't save because it's dead.


Except you forgot about chapter 6 that was earlier in the letter which you have to take as a whole instead of cherry-picking.

I believe water means water. Everyone else is just pushing meaning into the text so they don't have to believe Jesus means what He says. They don't want to believe water immersion saves and so they start with that conclusion and then interpret verses to match what they already believe. That's called eisegesis.

If water = spirit then Christ is being redundant saying that one must be born again of spirit and spirit. So you are incorrect.

You personally don't use any verses to defend that water immersion is required.

No. It doesn't. Go learn what the word antitupos means.

Yes. He's not talking about the building.

Romans 6.
If you believe that much....then go get baptized. Let the water rather than the blood of Christ wash away your sins.

When you awaken to the second death will you say...oops?
 

Kade Rystalmane

Well-known member
If you believe that much....then go get baptized.
I was. Over 35 years ago.
Let the water rather than the blood of Christ wash away your sins.
You present a false dichotomy here that does not represent what I believe. You don't even understand the position you are arguing against. Always with you, alone everything must be. That is why you fail.
When you awaken to the second death will you say...oops?
I'm not Jewish.
 

CrowCross

Super Member
I was. Over 35 years ago.

You present a false dichotomy here that does not represent what I believe. You don't even understand the position you are arguing against. Always with you, alone everything must be. That is why you fail.

I'm not Jewish.
To be honest...as someone being critical of others positions...you absolutely suck at presenting yours.
 

Saxon

Active member
1 Peter 3:20 which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

AMP
who once were disobedient, when the great patience of God was waiting in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons [Noah’s family], were brought safely through the water.

CEV
They had disobeyed God while Noah was building the boat, but God had been patient with them. Eight people went into that boat and were brought safely through the flood.

DLNT
ones having disobeyed formerly when the patience of God was waiting in the days of Noah while an ark was being prepared, ... in which a few (that is, eight souls) were brought-safely through the water,

These 3 translations, AMP, CEV and DLNT, give a clear meaning of what the KJV is stating. The 8 souls were “brought safely through the water” and were brought safely through the flood. The water is not what saved them.

In reference to 1 Peter 3:21, we need to know what is the “like figure” or as some versions say “type and antitype”. Type is a type of Christ in the Old Testament, and the antitype is Christ, the reality in the New Testament. (Anti, or not a type, but the reality.) The KJV, “like figure” works the same. What we need to discover is what is being referred to as the type, that even baptism now saves by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Fact: no one in the water was saved, they ALL died. In this case water is not the type being referenced.
Fact: no one in the ark died, they were ALL saved. The ark is the type that is being referenced.

The reason to believe this is that the saved were in the ark. In the New Testament, the saved are in Christ.

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Eph 1:8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Ephesians 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise,
Ephesians 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Ephesians 2:6 and hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

The saved are IN Christ Jesus.

I Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Fact: The baptism, immersion into, the one body (the body of Christ) is carried out by the Holy Spirit.

In the ark is the type of Christ and Christ is the antitype, or the real.
 

Abounds

Active member
1 Peter 3:20 which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

AMP
who once were disobedient, when the great patience of God was waiting in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons [Noah’s family], were brought safely through the water.

CEV
They had disobeyed God while Noah was building the boat, but God had been patient with them. Eight people went into that boat and were brought safely through the flood.

DLNT
ones having disobeyed formerly when the patience of God was waiting in the days of Noah while an ark was being prepared, ... in which a few (that is, eight souls) were brought-safely through the water,

These 3 translations, AMP, CEV and DLNT, give a clear meaning of what the KJV is stating. The 8 souls were “brought safely through the water” and were brought safely through the flood. The water is not what saved them.

In reference to 1 Peter 3:21, we need to know what is the “like figure” or as some versions say “type and antitype”. Type is a type of Christ in the Old Testament, and the antitype is Christ, the reality in the New Testament. (Anti, or not a type, but the reality.) The KJV, “like figure” works the same. What we need to discover is what is being referred to as the type, that even baptism now saves by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Fact: no one in the water was saved, they ALL died. In this case water is not the type being referenced.
Fact: no one in the ark died, they were ALL saved. The ark is the type that is being referenced.

The reason to believe this is that the saved were in the ark. In the New Testament, the saved are in Christ.

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Eph 1:8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Ephesians 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise,
Ephesians 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Ephesians 2:6 and hath raised us up together, and made us sit

Fact: The baptism, immersion into, the one body (the body of Christ) is carried out by the Holy Spirit.
NIV
[1Pe 3:20 NIV] 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,

NKJV
[1Pe 3:20 NKJV] 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while [the] ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.

CSB
[1Pe 3:20 CSB] 20 who in the past were disobedient, when God patiently waited in the days of Noah while the ark was being prepared. In it a few -- that is, eight people -- were saved through water.

NET
[1Pe 3:20 NET] 20 after they were disobedient long ago when God patiently waited in the days of Noah as an ark was being constructed. In the ark a few, that is eight souls, were delivered through water.

Fun Game

RSV
[1Pe 3:20 RSV] 20 who formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water.

ASV
[1Pe 3:20 ASV] 20 that aforetime were disobedient, when the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water:

YKT
[1Pe 3:20 YLT] 20 who sometime disbelieved, when once the long-suffering of God did wait, in days of Noah -- an ark being preparing -- in which few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water;

DBY
[1Pe 3:20 DBY] 20 heretofore disobedient, when the longsuffering of God waited in [the] days of Noah while the ark was preparing, into which few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water:

WEB
[1Pe 3:20 WEB] 20 Who formerly were disobedient, when once the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was preparing, in which few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water.

HNV
[1Pe 3:20 HNV] 20 who before were disobedient, when God waited patiently in the days of Noach, while the teivah was being built. In it, few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.

and for fun

KJV
[1Pe 3:20 KJV] 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

I think I won. Thanks for playing.
 
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