Your free will cannot save you because your will is ineffective and inept.

shnarkle

Well-known member
To truly have free will means that you are free to do as you will. You can do what you want to do. Paul refutes this nonsense by plainly pointing out that what he wants to do, he doesn't do. What he doesn't want to do, he ends up doing. He cannot do what he wants to do because he doesn't have free will at all. Therefore, salvation cannot be an act of the will, and Paul sums this up quite nicely by saying: " Who will rescue me from this body of death?"

HIs will? Nope.

" 25Thanks be to God, through Jesus Christ our Lord!"
 

Triune777

Member
You are correct. A persons free will cannot save them. Only believing in Jesus and all He did can save you. Now is believing possible if we are sinful be nature? Yes.

Romans 2:14 (NASB1995) For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,

If someone can freely do God’s will without regeneration than they can freely believe in Jesus as Lord and Savior. Believing is an act of faith not works. We are saved by grace through faith not by works.
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
You are correct. A persons free will cannot save them. Only believing
Believing isn't an act of the will? News to me.
in Jesus and all He did can save you. Now is believing possible if we are sinful be nature? Yes.

Romans 2:14 (NASB1995) For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
Doing something instinctively doesn't require one's will, or belief. In fact, instincts can kick in long before one's will or belief has a chance to look things over.
If someone can freely do God’s will without regeneration than they can freely believe in Jesus as Lord and Savior.
Non Sequitur. Just because much of what God's will prescribes is basically common sense, it doesn't then follow that they will believe in Jesus as Lord. Most of the time, that statement is meaningless to most people.
Believing is an act of faith not works.
Believing is an act of the will. The biblical authors point out that those who believe are blessed even though they cannot be witnesses of the risen Christ simply because they are acting as if they have seen him which is an act of the will. On some level one could argue it's just the power of suggestion which is the power one has over another's will.
We are saved by grace through faith not by works.
And neither are functional without the will. The greater point is that it is not our will that allows us to attain salvation, but God's sovereign will. If our will could save us, God would be pleased. Paul refutes that as a possibility. The carnal man cannot please God even if he does the right thing. The carnal man will always do the right thing for the wrong reasons, e.g.to save himself, to justify himself, etc.
 

Dizerner

Well-known member
To truly have free will means that you are free to do as you will. You can do what you want to do. Paul refutes this nonsense by plainly pointing out that what he wants to do, he doesn't do. What he doesn't want to do, he ends up doing. He cannot do what he wants to do because he doesn't have free will at all. Therefore, salvation cannot be an act of the will, and Paul sums this up quite nicely by saying: " Who will rescue me from this body of death?"

HIs will? Nope.

" 25Thanks be to God, through Jesus Christ our Lord!"

This is only under the law.

The Holy Spirit comes to people first with preceding grace to free and strengthen their will.

Jesus said "while the light is with you walk in the light," and if Jesus wanted to remove free will he would not have put the onus on them.
 

Triune777

Member
Believing isn't an act of the will? News to me.
I didn’t say that. You’re straining at nats.
Doing something instinctively doesn't require one's will, or belief. In fact, instincts can kick in long before one's will or belief has a chance to look things over.
I didn’t know that you’re a behavioral scientist? Because it’s not helping you exegete that verse. “Do not murder” is not something we obey instinctively. People without Christ obey God’s law willfully all the time and don’t murder when they want to. Human instinct as you describe it would murder instead of not murder.
Non Sequitur. Just because much of what God's will prescribes is basically common sense, it doesn't then follow that they will believe in Jesus as Lord. Most of the time, that statement is meaningless to most people.
Common sense to who? Common sense to one person can not be common sense to another. Is it God’s will for people to not murder? Is it God’s will for people to receive the gift of eternal life through Jesus? The answer to both these questions is yes. So it follows, this is just common sense, that the same free will that says no to murder is the same fee will that says yes to Jesus.
And neither are functional without the will. The greater point is that it is not our will that allows us to attain salvation, but God's sovereign will. If our will could save us, God would be pleased. Paul refutes that as a possibility. The carnal man cannot please God even if he does the right thing. The carnal man will always do the right thing for the wrong reasons, e.g.to save himself, to justify himself, etc.
not sure why you’re trying to correct me about a person’s will to chose. Receiving God’s grace, which results in receiving the gift of eternal life, is an act of the will even if you don’t have complete knowledge which is why we have faith. We can’t exercise faith without our will. Yes God’s sovereign will, as it is revealed to us in scripture, is that He chose to rule according to His will be giving humanity a free will to either follow Him or reject Him. God chooses the way He will rule not we don’t chose for Him.
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
I didn’t say that. You’re straining at nats.
You contrasted will with belief. Here's what you posted: "A persons free will cannot save them. Only believing"

If belief relies upon the will, then ultimately, it is an act of the will. You don't see it that way though so I'm not straining at "nats" at all. I'm simply replying to what you posted, which at this point isn't much to strain at in the first place due to the fact that it doesn't make any sense. Evidently, you would rather make irrelevant comments about me than address what I'm actually posting. It's called the fallacy of the Ad Hominem which means that you are addressing me rather than the content of my post.
I didn’t know that you’re a behavioral scientist?
Well, now you do.
Because it’s not helping you exegete that verse.
Sure it is. Matthew 9:9-13 9As Jesus went on from there, he saw a man named Matthew sitting at the tax collector's booth. "Follow me," he told him, and Matthew got up and followed him. "

Nowhere in the text do we see Matthew deliberating on what to do. He just quite simply gets up from his quite lucrative location, and leaves it behind without a thought.

"10While Jesus was having dinner at Matthew's house, many tax collectors and sinners came and ate with him and his disciples. 11When the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, "Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?" 12On hearing this, Jesus said, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. 13But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

Mercy converts the sinner's heart while the self righteously minded cannot be reached. The sinner can only take hold of this gift as only the desperately dying can. Does the drowning man need to think about grasping the life saver as it's tossed to him? Of course not.
“Do not murder” is not something we obey instinctively.
Murder is something that is sometimes known as " a crime of passion". This is a defense used to point out that one's emotions can overtake a person, and bypass their ability to think clearly, or to think at all. In a mad rush, they instinctively kill. This is also the case with those who are in fear for their lives. Sometimes their fear may be irrational, and therefore unjustified, yet the law will let them off because they were genuinely in fear for their lives. `

On the other hand, the new creation in Christ sees the least of their brothers as God sees them, not as this fallen world does. So when an accomplice to murder who is zealously seeking to persecute Christ's body is converted by Christ's spirit, they become a new creation, who can no longer tolerate their murderous instincts any longer. it is so repulsive to them that the command is trespassed against them instead, and they instinctively lay down their life just as Christ did.
People without Christ obey God’s law willfully all the time and don’t murder when they want to.
Agreed. Paul admits this as well when he points out that they have God's law in them. Then there are those who resist murder because they don't want to pay the penalties, or there is some other reason why they resist the urge. Regardless, this doesn't negate the original point which isn't mutually exclusive.
Human instinct as you describe it would murder instead of not murder.
Fallen human instincts, yes.
Common sense to who?
Common sense to those who actually have common sense, but most especially those who see the wisdom of using common sense.
Common sense to one person can not be common sense to another.
And?
Is it God’s will for people to not murder?
The carnal man cannot please God even if he refrains from murder.
Is it God’s will for people to receive the gift of eternal life through Jesus?
No. It's God's will that those he has foreknown and predestined for glory receive eternal life.
So it follows, this is just common sense, that the same free will
Fallacy of the Non Sequitur, and the Begging the Question.
not sure why you’re trying to correct me about a person’s will to chose.
Because I'm pointing out exactly what Paul is saying, and why he's saying it.
Receiving God’s grace, which results in receiving the gift of eternal life, is an act of the will
Again, this isn't what Paul says at all. The wrath of God is just as irresistible to the vessel fitted for destruction as God' mercy is for those vessels of mercy.
even if you don’t have complete knowledge
No one has complete knowledge.
which is why we have faith.
The faith of a mustard seed can move mountains points out that you don't need faith. God supplies one with all the faith they will need for his purposes. Therefore, it is only when one is acting according to God's will that success is guaranteed.
We can’t exercise faith without our will.
So how does one then exercise belief without the will? Why is the will necessary for faith, but not for belief?
Yes God’s sovereign will, as it is revealed to us in scripture,
If God is sovereign, then man's will isn't a factor. As Paul says, "not by will or effort, but God who shows mercy"
iHe chose to rule according to His will be giving humanity a free will to either follow Him or reject Him."
Beside the point, and clearly whoever God predestines to glory is created for glory. These are who God shows mercy upon. Again, we already know that no one chooses to do righteousness in God's eyes. It is only those whom God shows mercy to that can receive in the first place. The fact that God's mercy is infinite is beside the point. A vessel fitted for destruction cannot receive God's mercy because it wasn't made to receive it in the first place.
God chooses the way He will rule
Agreed. As Christ says, " You didn't choose me, but I chose you"
not we don’t chose for Him.
Could you rephrase this? Your use of double negatives is confusing. It sounds like you've taken my position after all. In other words, it is God who does the choosing, not us. Therefore, free will is a joke.
 

Yakuda

Well-known member
You are correct. A persons free will cannot save them. Only believing in Jesus and all He did can save you. Now is believing possible if we are sinful be nature? Yes.

Romans 2:14 (NASB1995) For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,

If someone can freely do God’s will without regeneration than they can freely believe in Jesus as Lord and Savior. Believing is an act of faith not works. We are saved by grace through faith not by works.
We we are saved by grace through faith but James tells us faith without works is dead. A dead faith is as useful to us as a bicycle to a fish. We are saved by what we do and not faith alone. Pesky passage that isn't it?
 
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