your reasons for rejecting Jesus.

bigthinker

Well-known member
Do what Jesus said and you can demonstrate it for yourself.
The way science/knowledge progresses is with the observation of an effect. When an effect is observed and the cause unknown, a hypothesis is made, predictions made and the hypothesis is tested.
What is your hypothesis?
And more importantly, what is your prediction -if one "does what Jesus said"?
And to be honest, the "what Jesus said" is a bit vague; can you be more precise? Should we get out of the boat as Peter commanded Jesus to command him to do?
If that is a reasonable test, what conditions should we set -does the type of boat come into play, does the position of the boat in the water make a difference? -I mean, its not difficult to get out of a boat in a foot of water...

Perhaps you mean we should do things Jesus said that don't have measurable or demonstrable results (such as changes of the heart)?/

Anyways, let us know how to set up the test.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
How would you know? That's not what you did. All you did was ask.
Indeed....
Which should make you wonder---- why would God answer, if all I did was ask?

Did it ever occur to you that is all that God is asking us to do?

43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
well yeah, he already knew that water boils at 180° No need to fight.
Maybe where you live.
Here, water boils at 203°F (95°C)

So, let's do it this way.

You really should take the time to learn these things.

Boiling point of pure water at elevated altitudes​

Based on standard sea-level atmospheric pressure (courtesy, NOAA):


Altitude, ft (m)Boiling point of water, °F (°C)
0 (0 m)212°F (100°C)
500 (150 m)211.1°F (99.5°C)
1,000 (305 m)210.2°F (99°C)
2,000 (610 m)208.4°F (98°C)
5,000 (1524 m)203°F (95°C)
6,000 (1829 m)201.1°F (94°C)
8,000 (2438 m)197.4°F (91.9°C)
10,000 (3048 m)193.6°F (89.8°C)
12,000 (3658 m)189.8°F (87.6°C)
14,000 (4267 m)185.9°F (85.5°C)
15,000 (4572 m)184.1°F (84.5°C)
 

SteveB

Well-known member
The way science/knowledge progresses is with the observation of an effect. When an effect is observed and the cause unknown, a hypothesis is made, predictions made and the hypothesis is tested.
Yep.


What is your hypothesis?
5 “Thus says the LORD, the God of Israel: ‘Like these good figs, so will I acknowledge those who are carried away captive from Judah, whom I have sent out of this place for their own good, into the land of the Chaldeans. 6 For I will set My eyes on them for good, and I will bring them back to this land; I will build them and not pull them down, and I will plant them and not pluck them up. 7 Then I will give them a heart to know Me, that I am the LORD; and they shall be My people, and I will be their God, for they shall return to Me with their whole heart.

So, I continued to read the bible, continued to learn what the bible says, and then started to learn how to do what the bible says.



And more importantly, what is your prediction -if one "does what Jesus said"?
Jesus said what it'd be.

23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.

And to be honest, the "what Jesus said" is a bit vague; can you be more precise? Should we get out of the boat as Peter commanded Jesus to command him to do?
It's only vague to people who don't pay attention.
Paying attention is an absolute necessity. So, if you think it's vague, then you're not paying attention.

I've gotten out of the boat several times, and have found myself able to do things I never couldn't have done under any other circumstance.

If that is a reasonable test, what conditions should we set -does the type of boat come into play, does the position of the boat in the water make a difference? -I mean, its not difficult to get out of a boat in a foot of water...

The conditions are set by the bible.
the boat is our life, and comfort zones.
Position..... wherever we are in life. Good times, bad times, sick, well, wealthy, poor, it doesn't matter. Wherever we happen to be in our lives.



Perhaps you mean we should do things Jesus said that don't have measurable or demonstrable results (such as changes of the heart)?/
A change in the heart contains massively measurable results.
Just not with man-made devices.
The changes are defined/outlined in the bible.
Galatians 5:16-25, 1 John (the entire letter is a series of tests which outline what the changes should be, and if they do not show up, then you don't have eternal life. If they do show up, then you do have eternal life (1 John 5:10-13))
There are numerous more, but for simplicity's sake, you can read those for yourself.

Anyways, let us know how to set up the test.
Start with 1 John.

10 He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son. 11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.​
the gospel of John, and Romans also have a series of elements which can be tested.

20 At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. 21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”​
22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, “Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?”​
23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. 24 He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father’s who sent Me.​

So..... start reading, and then when you see something that can be done--- do it.

Here's one of my favorites.

6 Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God; 7 and the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus. 8 Finally, brethren, whatever things are true, whatever things are noble, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report, if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy—meditate on these things. 9 The things which you learned and received and heard and saw in me, these do, and the God of peace will be with you.​
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
Indeed....
Which should make you wonder---- why would God answer, if all I did was ask?
I don't think He did. You've certainly given us no reason to believe He did.

Did it ever occur to you that is all that God is asking us to do?
No, because we tell you we've done that, and you keep telling us we're refusing to do something more that God requires us to do - but you never explain what that is.
 

Electric Skeptic

Well-known member
please describe, in detail, what you did, what you used to determine what you needed to do, what the actual results were, and what you used to determine that it failed.
Why is it that when we ask what we need to do, you just say "it's in the Bible", but when we say we've done it, you demand we describe exactly what we did in detail?

How about YOU describe what we need to do, in detail, first?
 

Mr Laurier

Well-known member
That doesn't demonstrate that you actually did so.
What did you do?
what was the basis upon which you decided it was done?
What was the basis which allowed you to decide it didn't work?
What did I do?
I prayed.
I prayed for Jesus to make the pedophiles stop raping me.
I prayed for 7 long years.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
I don't think He did. You've certainly given us no reason to believe He did.
Well, since you think you know more than you actually do, I guess that makes you smarter than those who know better.
It seems to me that you'd rather argue about what you don't really know, instead of finding out for yourself.

No, because we tell you we've done that, and you keep telling us we're refusing to do something more that God requires us to do - but you never explain what that is.
Actually, you haven't told me what you've done. This has been the problem.

Since you claim to have read the bible, since you claim to have understood what you've read---- give me details of what you've done, what you base what you claim to have done on, and then detail the results.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
You first. Be specific.
If you're not able, nor willing, then this is the perfect excuse.
It doesn't fly with me.
Or are you looking to experience confirmation bias?
Because I don't want you telling me--- well, I did that too.
I want your detailed experiences, operations, and the basis upon which you did it.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Why is it that when we ask what we need to do, you just say "it's in the Bible", but when we say we've done it, you demand we describe exactly what we did in detail?
Because you said that you did what Jesus said, and didn't get what I said would take place.
So, I'm giving you the opportunity to demonstrate that you actually did it.
For all the hallaballoo atheists go through to their ideas of God is a being who isn't real, you'd think that you'd be all over this, with a detailed list, just to prove that I'm wrong.
Quite frankly, since not one atheist has ever been able to do this, it's my opinion you didn't actually do what Jesus said, but need to claim it, so you can excuse yourself, and have the appearance of doing so.

How about YOU describe what we need to do, in detail, first?
Why?
You're the one who said you did it and it didn't work.

Come on ES.
GIVE ME A REASON TO BELIEVE YOU......
 

SteveB

Well-known member
What did I do?
I prayed.
I prayed for Jesus to make the pedophiles stop raping me.
I prayed for 7 long years.
While I am genuinely sorry that you had to live through this, I see nothing that shows you did what Jesus said to do.

I can however tell you this.

17 For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18 Now​
“If the righteous one is scarcely saved,
Where will the ungodly and the sinner appear?”


1 Then He said to the disciples, “It is impossible that no offenses should come, but woe to him through whom they do come! 2 It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.


6 “Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to sin, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were drowned in the depth of the sea. 7 Woe to the world because of offenses! For offenses must come, but woe to that man by whom the offense comes!​
8 “If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire. 9 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire.​

42 “But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea. 43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— 44 where​
‘Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’
45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— 46 where​
‘Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’
47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire— 48 where​
‘Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’


The vengeance that God will take on those who committed those crimes against you will be far worse than you can possibly conceive.

Vengeance is Mine, and recompense;​
Their foot shall slip in due time;​
For the day of their calamity is at hand,​
And the things to come hasten upon them.’​
36 “For the LORD will judge His people​
And have compassion on His servants,​
When He sees that their power is gone,​
And there is no one remaining, bond or free.​

And I will execute vengeance in anger and fury​
On the nations that have not obeyed.​

God is jealous, and the LORD avenges;​
The LORD avenges and is furious.​
The LORD will take vengeance on His adversaries,​
And He reserves wrath for His enemies;​

Even in the new testament, we read where God will avenge his people against those who committed crimes against them.

Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord.​
among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure, 5 which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; 6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe​
For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The LORD will judge His people
He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; 7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.​

Don't allow your pain to eat you alive, and destroy you.
God will avenge. And while I'm sure that you've thought of all the different ways you could avenge yourself, God's will be far more profound.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
lol, oh, so now you want a demonstration?
lol.

I'm glad you find it so amusing.
Yes, as matter of fact I do.
You're the one who said that you did what Jesus said, so this really should be quite simple for you to demonstrate.
Describe the process you followed to do what Jesus said.
Give biblical examples of what Jesus said that are doable, which you then did, and the results of your actions.



Can you demonstrate that your God exists outside of your imagination?
I'm still waiting for you to back up the claims of your doing what Jesus said and its failure to engage God himself.

If you're not going to do this, then just say so, and I'll not engage you in further discussion.

This is your eternity. So if you don't actually care about where you spend it, then that's your prerogative.
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
I want your detailed experiences, operations, and the basis upon which you did it.
Why can't you ever be this specific yourself?

I've read the Bible and found it unconvincing. I've tried speaking to God and received no response. I've investigated the standard arguments for God and found them to be invalid. I've tried engaging Christians only to have them evade my questions and attack me. What more would you like to know?
 
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bigthinker

Well-known member
I'm glad you find it so amusing.
Yes, as matter of fact I do.
You're the one who said that you did what Jesus said, so this really should be quite simple for you to demonstrate.
Describe the process you followed to do what Jesus said.
Give biblical examples of what Jesus said that are doable, which you then did, and the results of your actions.




I'm still waiting for you to back up the claims of your doing what Jesus said and its failure to engage God himself.
Well, I'm still waiting for you to demonstrate that your God exists outside of your imagination, that God causes measurable effects in the real world.
And I'm still waiting for you to demonstrate that doing what Jesus said makes a difference.
Your claims are not falsifiable.
My point about having done what Jesus says to do makes the point that its not falsifiable -yet somehow you conveniently miss it.
Your claims are not falsifiable because there is nothing to test. Anyone can claim they have followed Jesus' instructions -how can you prove they didn't (that is what falsifiability means -that the claim can be shown to be false -not that it is, necessarily.
The problem is that your reasoning is backward. You start from a conclusion (That God exists, the bible is valid, that doing what Jesus said produces measurable change) and then seek to confirm that and you reject anything that contradicts your bias. Which is why you question my claim and results of following Jesus' words myself -I didn't arrive at the same conclusion.
The proper approach (if factual knowledge is the goal) is to not assume a conclusion but to rather follow the evidence and the data to see where it leads by testing and base a conclusion on the results.
If you're not going to do this, then just say so, and I'll not engage you in further discussion.
That's very disingenuous of you, lol. You've demonstrated nothing and I've continued to engage you. You definitely have a double standard as you expect from others that which you will not (cannot?) do yourself.
This is your eternity. So if you don't actually care about where you spend it, then that's your prerogative.
lol. You still have not given me a reason to be worried about any consequences of not believing what you believe.
I'm not worried about it.
 

Mr Laurier

Well-known member
While I am genuinely sorry that you had to live through this, I see nothing that shows you did what Jesus said to do.

I can however tell you this.

17 For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18 Now​
“If the righteous one is scarcely saved,
Where will the ungodly and the sinner appear?”


1 Then He said to the disciples, “It is impossible that no offenses should come, but woe to him through whom they do come! 2 It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.


6 “Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to sin, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were drowned in the depth of the sea. 7 Woe to the world because of offenses! For offenses must come, but woe to that man by whom the offense comes!​
8 “If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire. 9 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire.​

42 “But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea. 43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— 44 where​
‘Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’
45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— 46 where​
‘Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’
47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire— 48 where​
‘Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’


The vengeance that God will take on those who committed those crimes against you will be far worse than you can possibly conceive.

Vengeance is Mine, and recompense;​
Their foot shall slip in due time;​
For the day of their calamity is at hand,​
And the things to come hasten upon them.’​
36 “For the LORD will judge His people​
And have compassion on His servants,​
When He sees that their power is gone,​
And there is no one remaining, bond or free.​

And I will execute vengeance in anger and fury​
On the nations that have not obeyed.​

God is jealous, and the LORD avenges;​
The LORD avenges and is furious.​
The LORD will take vengeance on His adversaries,​
And He reserves wrath for His enemies;​

Even in the new testament, we read where God will avenge his people against those who committed crimes against them.

Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord.​
among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure, 5 which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; 6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe​
For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The LORD will judge His people
He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; 7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.​

Don't allow your pain to eat you alive, and destroy you.
God will avenge. And while I'm sure that you've thought of all the different ways you could avenge yourself, God's will be far more profound.
So you can spew jibberish at me. Seriously... WORMS DIE ALL THE TIME!
And stop regurgitating platitudes at me. It is insulting
 
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