your reasons for rejecting Jesus.

bigthinker

Well-known member
Maybe where you live.
You missed the point. The point is that you can believe whatever you want including believing that your belief is correct and since beliefs are not falsifiable it doesn't matter whether the belief is right or wrong.
Here, water boils at 203°F (95°C)

So, let's do it this way.

You really should take the time to learn these things.
Ignorant condescension, quite typical. lol. You are entertaining.

Boiling point of pure water at elevated altitudes​

Based on standard sea-level atmospheric pressure (courtesy, NOAA):


Altitude, ft (m)Boiling point of water, °F (°C)
0 (0 m)212°F (100°C)
500 (150 m)211.1°F (99.5°C)
1,000 (305 m)210.2°F (99°C)
2,000 (610 m)208.4°F (98°C)
5,000 (1524 m)203°F (95°C)
6,000 (1829 m)201.1°F (94°C)
8,000 (2438 m)197.4°F (91.9°C)
10,000 (3048 m)193.6°F (89.8°C)
12,000 (3658 m)189.8°F (87.6°C)
14,000 (4267 m)185.9°F (85.5°C)
15,000 (4572 m)184.1°F (84.5°C)
I'm impressed, you actually demonstrated something!
Its slow but we might be making progress.
Now, how do you know if these numbers are correct?
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Why can't you ever be this specific yourself?
Actually I have.
You're not paying attention.



I've read the Bible and found it unconvincing.
Did you do what Jesus said to do?

I've given you what he said several times before.

Keep his teachings and you will demonstrate that you love him and you will be loved by God and both Jesus and God will come and make their home with you.


I've tried speaking to God and received no response.
Which god did you engage?
Allah, Joe Smith's LDS god, the god of the jehovah's witnesses, some variation of the millions of man made gods, or YHVH?

YHVH has stated he will answer us when we seek him with a whole heart.

A whole heart is when we actually want to know and not just to claim we did something so we can ignore it.

God has said he will reject the proud and gives grace to the humble.

In Isaiah 57:15 we read that God inhabits eternity and yet dwells with the humble and contrite people.


I've investigated the standard arguments for God and found them to be invalid.
Ok. This is supposed to mean something to me?
Sorry. I found a long time ago that this is a choice. There is no argument that will tie you down, and force you to believe.

Paul tells us that he did not use man's wisdom to argue. Rather that he wants our faith to be based on the power of God.

When God does the convincing no argument can convince us that God is not real and knowable.

I've tried engaging Christians only to have them evade my questions and attack me.
From my observations, the only thing you have done is to give excuses for why you should not have to be bothered. Which has long made me wonder why you bother.

If you don't actually want to know telling me that my success isn't real because you failed.

I've explained my background several dozen times before.
I can think of plenty of other things that are a lot more enjoyable than sitting around arguing with people who don't want to know the truth. As well as being rude about the details and issues I explain.

What more would you like to know?
Details.

What did you read in the bible?
What did you think was going to happen when you read the bible?
Did you ever actually consider that there are numerous items in the bible which explicitly describe the importance of action on their statements before you will be able to know if what they state are true?
Or did you miss those parts?
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
Actually I have.
You're not paying attention.
But you won't show me where, right?

Did you do what Jesus said to do?

I've given you what he said several times before.

Keep his teachings and you will demonstrate that you love him and you will be loved by God and both Jesus and God will come and make their home with you.
As I've told you many times, I've done all that is possible without already believing. I can't love someone without believing they exist, and I can't believe they exist without evidence that they exist.

Which god did you engage?
Allah, Joe Smith's LDS god, the god of the jehovah's witnesses, some variation of the millions of man made gods, or YHVH?
He didn't answer to any of those titles.

YHVH has stated he will answer us when we seek him with a whole heart.

A whole heart is when we actually want to know and not just to claim we did something so we can ignore it.

God has said he will reject the proud and gives grace to the humble.

In Isaiah 57:15 we read that God inhabits eternity and yet dwells with the humble and contrite people.
Yes, I was humble and actually wanted to know. Still no answer.

Ok. This is supposed to mean something to me?
Sorry. I found a long time ago that this is a choice. There is no argument that will tie you down, and force you to believe.
You asked what I've done, so I'm telling you.

From my observations, the only thing you have done is to give excuses for why you should not have to be bothered. Which has long made me wonder why you bother.
Then your observations are not accurate.

What did you read in the bible?
All of it.

What did you think was going to happen when you read the bible?
I had no specific expectations.

Did you ever actually consider that there are numerous items in the bible which explicitly describe the importance of action on their statements before you will be able to know if what they state are true? Or did you miss those parts?
Sure, it has many instructions. Many of which are immoral (stoning adulterers), or which no Christian ever follows (giving away all your possessions), or which first require belief (loving God). Which instructions specifically do you think I need to act upon?
 

Whatsisface

Well-known member
That's because you refused my invitation to visit.

So that's entirely your fault.
You've made this silly remark before. Visiting you would not show that you accurately did what Jesus said to do. Telling us what you did might at least give something to evaluate and can be done here as well as anywhere.. But you won't do that, because you're not interested in honest, open conversation.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
So you can spew jibberish at me. Seriously... WORMS DIE ALL THE TIME!
And stop regurgitating platitudes at me. It is insulting

The crimes of those pedophiles will be held accountable in ways you cannot begin to fathom. Far more than you could ever achieve against them.

So the only thing you have left is hate that is eating you from the inside out.

Your hate towards God because of their crimes against you is not going to change the truth of Jesus, or the gospel.

Your hate will however exclude you from experiencing the truth of Jesus.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
You missed the point. The point is that you can believe whatever you want including believing that your belief is correct and since beliefs are not falsifiable it doesn't matter whether the belief is right or wrong.
Right now it's pretty clear that you are the one who keeps believing whatever you want, without any basis beyond your own ideas, and beliefs.



Ignorant condescension, quite typical. lol. You are entertaining.
Yet you're not able to actually provide any evidence that you've actually done what Jesus said.



I'm impressed, you actually demonstrated something!
Its slow but we might be making progress.
Now, how do you know if these numbers are correct?
I can mathematically verify them using the same systems I was taught in the textbooks provided by the university bookstore.
 

bigthinker

Well-known member
Right now it's pretty clear that you are the one who keeps believing whatever you want, without any basis beyond your own ideas, and beliefs.
I'm not sure how you could come to that conclusion since I do not have beliefs and I have said as much.
You're just making stuff up now.
Yet you're not able to actually provide any evidence that you've actually done what Jesus said.
Neither are you. That's the point.
Seriously, are you still not getting it?
I can mathematically verify them using the same systems I was taught in the textbooks provided by the university bookstore.
So you could use an objective, external standard to confirm the data?
This is the difference between actual data and your beliefs -which are not objective and do not seem to exist outside of your imagination.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
But you won't show me where, right?


As I've told you many times, I've done all that is possible without already believing. I can't love someone without believing they exist, and I can't believe they exist without evidence that they exist.
Yet you clearly believe that you can talk to complete strangers on some internet forum, which is based entirely in a digital realm, with no basis other than ones and zeros.
So, how do you actually know what you're doing?

It strikes me that you have become so used to this excuse that you have become blind to all the things you do engage in which you don't actually believe in.


He didn't answer to any of those titles.
How would you know?
Yes, I was humble and actually wanted to know. Still no answer.
What do you think humility is?


You asked what I've done, so I'm telling you.
Good.
Thank you.
Now you can answer the questions I'm asking.
Then your observations are not accurate.
Yet you give me nothing to believe you with.
All of it.
Define all of it.

I had no specific expectations.
Apparently you did, because you're telling me that nothing happened.
Sure, it has many instructions. Many of which are immoral (stoning adulterers), or which no Christian ever follows (giving away all your possessions), or which first require belief (loving God). Which instructions specifically do you think I need to act upon?
The instructions given by Jesus.

This makes it pretty clear that you are not paying attention.

I copied exactly what Jesus said.
Yet here you are saying something entirely different that has absolutely nothing to do with what Jesus said.
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
Yet you clearly believe that you can talk to complete strangers on some internet forum, which is based entirely in a digital realm, with no basis other than ones and zeros.
So, how do you actually know what you're doing?

It strikes me that you have become so used to this excuse that you have become blind to all the things you do engage in which you don't actually believe in.
No. I have evidence of your existence so I am able to believe that you exist. I don't have any evidence of God's existence, so I am not yet able to believe He exists - and I can't love someone without believing they exist.

How would you know?
Because you say God responds in a way that cannot be mistaken. Or were you wrong about that?

What do you think humility is?
Something you have never demonstrated in all of your years posting here.

Humility (noun)
The quality or condition of being humble (not proud or arrogant); having a modest opinion or estimate of one's own importance, rank, etc.

Good. Thank you. Now you can answer the questions I'm asking.
I always have done. It's just a pity you never return the courtesy. Why is that?

Define all of it.
All (pronoun)
The whole quantity or amount.

Apparently you did, because you're telling me that nothing happened.
No, I did not expect any response and I got no response.

The instructions given by Jesus.
I asked you to be specific. You are not being specific. As I said, there are many things the Bible says to do - many are immoral or are not followed by Christians, and others cannot be done before one believes in God. What specifically do you think I need to act upon in order to know that it is true?
 

Mr Laurier

Well-known member
The crimes of those pedophiles will be held accountable in ways you cannot begin to fathom. Far more than you could ever achieve against them.

So the only thing you have left is hate that is eating you from the inside out.

Your hate towards God because of their crimes against you is not going to change the truth of Jesus, or the gospel.

Your hate will however exclude you from experiencing the truth of Jesus.
Not likely. They were rich, And now most are long dead. I can expose them. You would have me stay silent.


No. I have the desire for justice. And nothing is eating me.


My hate towards God, is a fantasy YOU have created. Stop trying to defend pedophiles, it makes you look bad.


My hate will do no such thing. Stop trying to defend a pedophile ring.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Not likely. They were rich, And now most are long dead. I can expose them. You would have me stay silent.
If they're dead, then they've already entered their eternity.
If they never repented, and actually believed the gospel, they're in hell, awaiting final judgment.
If they did repent, and actually believed the gospel, then Jesus took on the penalty due their sin.

No. I have the desire for justice. And nothing is eating me.
Really? Because you're the one who keeps claiming that Jesus, the gospel, and biblical christianity is a fraud, because the form of religion you grew up in was fraudulent.
So, it seems to me that you've conflated ideas, twisted the truth, and your present beliefs are completely excluding you from learning the truth.

My hate towards God, is a fantasy YOU have created. Stop trying to defend pedophiles, it makes you look bad.
No, actually, your hate for God is written throughout your posts. Otherwise I never would've said anything.

My hate will do no such thing. Stop trying to defend a pedophile ring.
I'm not defending anything. I explained to you how God views this, and how he'll handle people like what you've described. You're the one who said it's all gibberish.
And your hate will in fact exclude you. Just hate excludes everyone.

13 Do not marvel, my brethren, if the world hates you. 14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death. 15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
No. I have evidence of your existence so I am able to believe that you exist. I don't have any evidence of God's existence, so I am not yet able to believe He exists - and I can't love someone without believing they exist.
Actually, the only thing you have are words on a digital media, with a picture of a man who could in fact be any one of a number of some 3-4 billion people.
Because you say God responds in a way that cannot be mistaken. Or were you wrong about that?
Just because he does in fact respond in a way that cannot be mistaken does not mean you do not have biases on what that "cannot be mistaken" actually means.

Something you have never demonstrated in all of your years posting here.


Humility (noun)
The quality or condition of being humble (not proud or arrogant); having a modest opinion or estimate of one's own importance, rank, etc.

Ironic..... a definition based on another word which is not defined. Seems to me that your definition is only of value to people who actually know what humble means.
I always have done. It's just a pity you never return the courtesy. Why is that?
How have I estimated myself of greater rank, or importance to you?
You're the one who keeps telling me I'm wrong. How could you know that I'm wrong, unless you estimate your views, and opinions of greater quality, and condition than mine?
Seems that you've epitomized the lack of humility.

All (pronoun)
The whole quantity or amount.


No, I did not expect any response and I got no response.
Then you got what you wanted.
I asked you to be specific. You are not being specific. As I said, there are many things the Bible says to do - many are immoral or are not followed by Christians, and others cannot be done before one believes in God. What specifically do you think I need to act upon in order to know that it is true?
It's quite simple.
Do it the way Jesus said, and he says you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.

31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
33 They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants, and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can You say, ‘You will be made free’?”​
34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.

The only way to know the truth is by continuing to do what Jesus said. If you do not, then you'll remain a slave to your sin.

He also said in Matthew 13, that it's only with patience that you'll come to understand, and accomplish what he said.

18 “Therefore hear the parable of the sower: 19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside. 20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. 22 Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful. 23 But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.”​

I have a thought for you to consider.

God actually already has answered, but you either missed, or dismissed it because it did not fit your preconceived biases. God seldom gives us what we think we want, but always gives us what we actually need. So, if you're out of tune with your actual needs, you most likely dismissed his responding to you.
I think the reason I "sensed" his response to me so quickly is that I had no idea what to expect. I let God set the terms, instead of demanding he meet my terms
But in looking back at it, and reading/learning/having gained understanding of what the bible says, it matches with God operates. And it further matches the numerous testimonies I've heard from others who are following Jesus.
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
Actually, the only thing you have are words on a digital media, with a picture of a man who could in fact be any one of a number of some 3-4 billion people.
I'm not claiming to be able to identify you as anyone other than the human behind the online handle SteveB. And that is the person I have evidence for. It's not incorrigible evidence - it's possible that you could be a bot - but I don't even have this meager degree of evidence for God.

Just because he does in fact respond in a way that cannot be mistaken does not mean you do not have biases on what that "cannot be mistaken" actually means.
If God responds in a way that cannot be mistaken, then He is able to overcome anyone's biases if He so chooses.

Ironic..... a definition based on another word which is not defined. Seems to me that your definition is only of value to people who actually know what humble means.
Work on your reading comprehension, Steve. I included the definition of 'humble' in parentheses.

How have I estimated myself of greater rank, or importance to you?
You're the one who keeps telling me I'm wrong. How could you know that I'm wrong, unless you estimate your views, and opinions of greater quality, and condition than mine?
Seems that you've epitomized the lack of humility.
Again, work on your reading comprehension. I said that you never return the courtesy of answering my questions, even though I always answer yours.

Then you got what you wanted.
I didn't say I wanted no response. I said I had no expectation either way. If you have to actually want and expect a response in order to get one, then that is the very definition of confirmation bias.

It's quite simple.
Do it the way Jesus said, and he says you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.
Still not specific.

31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
33 They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants, and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can You say, ‘You will be made free’?”​
34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.

The only way to know the truth is by continuing to do what Jesus said. If you do not, then you'll remain a slave to your sin.
Still nothing here that is specific. What am I supposed to be acting on?

He also said in Matthew 13, that it's only with patience that you'll come to understand, and accomplish what he said.

18 “Therefore hear the parable of the sower: 19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside. 20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. 22 Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful. 23 But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.”​
I've been very patient.

I have a thought for you to consider. God actually already has answered, but you either missed, or dismissed it because it did not fit your preconceived biases. God seldom gives us what we think we want, but always gives us what we actually need. So, if you're out of tune with your actual needs, you most likely dismissed his responding to you.
Then you're wrong to say that God always responds in a way that cannot be mistaken. If God has responded to me, then He has chosen to do so in a way that cannot be rationally distinguished from no response at all.

I think the reason I "sensed" his response to me so quickly is that I had no idea what to expect. I let God set the terms, instead of demanding he meet my terms. But in looking back at it, and reading/learning/having gained understanding of what the bible says, it matches with God operates. And it further matches the numerous testimonies I've heard from others who are following Jesus.
I also had no idea what to expect, and let God set the terms. You got what you consider to be a clear response - a strong subjective emotional experience of being loved. I'm not sure that really is as unambiguous as you claim, but I am sure that I did not experience anything like this either through reading the Bible or through calling on YHVH to reveal His existence to me.
 

Mr Laurier

Well-known member
If they're dead, then they've already entered their eternity.
If they never repented, and actually believed the gospel, they're in hell, awaiting final judgment.
If they did repent, and actually believed the gospel, then Jesus took on the penalty due their sin.
If they are dead, they cannot be held accountable.
They cannot be in hell, or Gondor, or the the holodeck of the starship Enterprise.
I'm sure some of them believed all four canonical gospels. And while they lack any "sin, if Jesus is being punished for their crimes, then Jesus needs to be rescued. .

"Really? Because you're the one who keeps claiming that Jesus, the gospel, and biblical christianity is a fraud, because the form of religion you grew up in was fraudulent."
Actualy, I have never claimed any such thing. Again you are working from a script where I am expected to say certain things. You cannot bring yourself to accept that I am not following your script.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
If they are dead, they cannot be held accountable.
Not according to your awareness. But your lack of awareness does not mean you're correct. It just means you have no idea.
and claiming to is evidence that you are ignorant of far more than you're aware.
They cannot be in hell, or Gondor, or the the holodeck of the starship Enterprise.
How would you know?

I'm sure some of them believed all four canonical gospels. And while they lack any "sin, if Jesus is being punished for their crimes, then Jesus needs to be rescued.
Believed as in acknowledged as being historically correct, or believed as in obeyed, and lived according to the standards laid out in them?
Because if it's the latter, they never would've molested you-- or others.
This is why I provided you with the passages I did.

"Really? Because you're the one who keeps claiming that Jesus, the gospel, and biblical christianity is a fraud, because the form of religion you grew up in was fraudulent."
Actualy, I have never claimed any such thing. Again you are working from a script where I am expected to say certain things. You cannot bring yourself to accept that I am not following your script.
Sure could've fooled me. I read your rants. You're an angry man, and God is a lie because of the crimes committed against you growing up.
 

Mr Laurier

Well-known member
Sure could've fooled me. I read your rants. You're an angry man, and God is a lie because of the crimes committed against you growing up.
Alas, my failure to post any rants, does refute your claims.
I'm actualy quite happy. But I still want justice.
God is not a lie. No more than Hobbit, Elf, or Goblin is a lie. And crimes committed against me do NOT define all of reality.
 

Mr Laurier

Well-known member
Believed as in acknowledged as being historically correct, or believed as in obeyed, and lived according to the standards laid out in them?
Because if it's the latter, they never would've molested you-- or others.
This is why I provided you with the passages I did.
Most likely all of the above.
You are refuted by the shared experiences of millions of children.
Instead of "passages"... maybe try providing real answers. Real responses. Not "passages".
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
I'm not claiming to be able to identify you as anyone other than the human behind the online handle SteveB. And that is the person I have evidence for. It's not incorrigible evidence - it's possible that you could be a bot - but I don't even have this meager degree of evidence for God.

If God responds in a way that cannot be mistaken, then He is able to overcome anyone's biases if He so chooses.

Work on your reading comprehension, Steve. I included the definition of 'humble' in parentheses.

Again, work on your reading comprehension. I said that you never return the courtesy of answering my questions, even though I always answer yours.

I didn't say I wanted no response. I said I had no expectation either way. If you have to actually want and expect a response in order to get one, then that is the very definition of confirmation bias.

Still not specific.

Still nothing here that is specific. What am I supposed to be acting on?

I've been very patient.

Then you're wrong to say that God always responds in a way that cannot be mistaken. If God has responded to me, then He has chosen to do so in a way that cannot be rationally distinguished from no response at all.

I also had no idea what to expect, and let God set the terms. You got what you consider to be a clear response - a strong subjective emotional experience of being loved. I'm not sure that really is as unambiguous as you claim, but I am sure that I did not experience anything like this either through reading the Bible or through calling on YHVH to reveal His existence to me.
Bump for SteveB.

Apparently there are questions I've stopped answering, although it appears to be Steve who has here stopped replying.
 
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