[youtube] Is the Sermon on the Mount a literary creation? A response to Mike Winger (and Michael Jones)

hatsoff

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And the description:

Pastor Mike Winger seems to think that the Sermon on the Mount and the Sermon on the Plain were actual sermons given word-for-word by the historical Jesus on two different occasions. In this video, I walk through some of the reasons for thinking the Sermon on the Mount is in fact a literary creation of the first evangelist. Along the way, I also respond briefly to Michael Jones regarding the missionary discourse in the Synoptics.
 
Shameless plug ahoy!

And the description:

Pastor Mike Winger seems to think that the Sermon on the Mount and the Sermon on the Plain were actual sermons given word-for-word by the historical Jesus on two different occasions. In this video, I walk through some of the reasons for thinking the Sermon on the Mount is in fact a literary creation of the first evangelist. Along the way, I also respond briefly to Michael Jones regarding the missionary discourse in the Synoptics.
Thanks for creating and sharing the video. I am, of course, in agreement... though if I may offer three comments that could help tie some of the content together.

That the Matthean sermon is a literary creation could be reinforced using a wide-lens analysis of the gospel's literary structure... you touch on, for example, the community and mission discourses, which are the second and fourth of five such sayings complexes that Matthew either inserts whole cloth (the aforementioned sermon) or inflates in parallel to a terse Markan version (the remaining four discourses), bringing them to a total of five in his particular presentation of Jesus as a new Moses and interpreter of the Torah. Your argument could be strengthened by drawing specific notice to these five blocks as part of the gospel's literary artistry.

In response to the idea that Matthew's "Sermon on the Mount" and Luke's "Sermon on the Plain" constitute two different sermons separated in time, it could be argued that they are inserted at the same point chronologically in the Markan framework and thus constitute different versions of the same ostensible sermon. While it is common for proponents of the two-document hypothesis to claim such alignments of so-called Q material never occurs, it actually does on several occasions... this being one of them. The three gospels synchronize with Jesus going up on the mountain and some disciples gathering around him:

When he saw the crowds, he went up the mountain; and after he sat down, his disciples came to him. (Matt 5:1)
He went up the mountain and called to him those whom he wanted, and they came to him. (Mark 3:13)
Now during those days he went out to the mountain to pray; and he spent the night in prayer to God. And when day came, he called his disciples... (Luke 6:12-13a)

Anxious to get to his first block of sayings, Matthew postpones the selection of twelve apostles that occurs on this mountain in Mark and Luke to later in his narrative (would Winger suggest Jesus did this twice?), but otherwise the sermons are aligned... Luke simply has Jesus come down from the mountain with his newly-appointed apostles to meet the large crowd that Matthew reported immediately prior to Jesus' ascent (4:25), heal some of them and then launch into the sermon. Someone such as Winger would have to argue Jesus delivered these sermons back-to-back to the same audience (Matthew from the mountaintop, Luke on equal footing), which attempted harmonization strains credulity.

A third point concerns Luke's own literary arrangement of the material. While I can appreciate that the video was focused on Matthew's version of the sermon as a literary creation, showing how Luke's version is also stylized would help reinforce the overall approach you present of how early Christian writers interacted with the sayings of Jesus when composing their biographies. Luke's version is, as you note, significantly shorter... it happens to be arranged, however, in three distinct blocks of material: (1) 6:20-26 presents the introductory blessings (balanced by woes lacking in Matthew), (2) 6:27-38 constitutes Jesus' ethical demands on his followers culminating with the illustration about the good measure, at which point the narrator intrudes with a note that Jesus tells them a parable (6:39a), followed by (3) several other such illustrations (the blind guide, the disciple and his teacher, the log in the eye, the tree that is known by its fruit, treasures of the heart and the two houses) through to the end of the sermon (6:39b-49). Matthew's version is a hodge-podge of sayings that Luke can be seen polishing off... literary artistry at work, not the raw recording of a sermon.

Kind regards,
Jonathan
 
Thanks for creating and sharing the video. I am, of course, in agreement... though if I may offer three comments that could help tie some of the content together.

That the Matthean sermon is a literary creation could be reinforced using a wide-lens analysis of the gospel's literary structure... you touch on, for example, the community and mission discourses, which are the second and fourth of five such sayings complexes that Matthew either inserts whole cloth (the aforementioned sermon) or inflates in parallel to a terse Markan version (the remaining four discourses), bringing them to a total of five in his particular presentation of Jesus as a new Moses and interpreter of the Torah. Your argument could be strengthened by drawing specific notice to these five blocks as part of the gospel's literary artistry.

In response to the idea that Matthew's "Sermon on the Mount" and Luke's "Sermon on the Plain" constitute two different sermons separated in time, it could be argued that they are inserted at the same point chronologically in the Markan framework and thus constitute different versions of the same ostensible sermon. While it is common for proponents of the two-document hypothesis to claim such alignments of so-called Q material never occurs, it actually does on several occasions... this being one of them. The three gospels synchronize with Jesus going up on the mountain and some disciples gathering around him:

When he saw the crowds, he went up the mountain; and after he sat down, his disciples came to him. (Matt 5:1)
He went up the mountain and called to him those whom he wanted, and they came to him. (Mark 3:13)
Now during those days he went out to the mountain to pray; and he spent the night in prayer to God. And when day came, he called his disciples... (Luke 6:12-13a)

Anxious to get to his first block of sayings, Matthew postpones the selection of twelve apostles that occurs on this mountain in Mark and Luke to later in his narrative (would Winger suggest Jesus did this twice?), but otherwise the sermons are aligned... Luke simply has Jesus come down from the mountain with his newly-appointed apostles to meet the large crowd that Matthew reported immediately prior to Jesus' ascent (4:25), heal some of them and then launch into the sermon. Someone such as Winger would have to argue Jesus delivered these sermons back-to-back to the same audience (Matthew from the mountaintop, Luke on equal footing), which attempted harmonization strains credulity.

A third point concerns Luke's own literary arrangement of the material. While I can appreciate that the video was focused on Matthew's version of the sermon as a literary creation, showing how Luke's version is also stylized would help reinforce the overall approach you present of how early Christian writers interacted with the sayings of Jesus when composing their biographies. Luke's version is, as you note, significantly shorter... it happens to be arranged, however, in three distinct blocks of material: (1) 6:20-26 presents the introductory blessings (balanced by woes lacking in Matthew), (2) 6:27-38 constitutes Jesus' ethical demands on his followers culminating with the illustration about the good measure, at which point the narrator intrudes with a note that Jesus tells them a parable (6:39a), followed by (3) several other such illustrations (the blind guide, the disciple and his teacher, the log in the eye, the tree that is known by its fruit, treasures of the heart and the two houses) through to the end of the sermon (6:39b-49). Matthew's version is a hodge-podge of sayings that Luke can be seen polishing off... literary artistry at work, not the raw recording of a sermon.

Kind regards,
Jonathan
@hatsoff too…. To what extent do either of you feel the artistic licenses employed were a result of audience? Let me be more clear - not the audience of the actual speeches, but the intended audiences of the narratives/gospels that the speeches are found in.
 
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To what extent do either of you feel the artistic licenses employed were a result of audience? Let me be more clear - not the audience of the actual speeches, but the intended audiences of the narratives/gospels that the speeches are found in.
Yes, I would say the artistry in both cases is inextricably bound up with each writer's attempt to appease and/or persuade his audience using rhetorical techniques they would expect and/or appreciate. In Matthew's case, we can deduce from elsewhere in the gospel that it was written for and in defense of a Torah-observant Christian community so the creation of five discourses to parallel the five books attributed to Moses would be appreciated by an audience who viewed Jesus as the interpreter of the Mosaic Law par excellence. Matthew's overall structure conforms to the emergent template of what a biography was expected to look like (an improvement on Mark), but the piling up of sayings into these large discourses lacked finesse. Luke, whose Gentile audience would be expected to have more familiarity with Greco-Roman literature generally, refashions the material toward the typical biography of a sage whose teachings would be arranged in some logical and rhetorically-persuasive order (one of his improvements on Matthew).

Kind regards,
Jonathan
 
To admit the sermon was heavily edited and rearranged is not to admit that it was made up out of whole cloth, as they are the ideas of Christ just reformatted.
 
To admit the sermon was heavily edited and rearranged is not to admit that it was made up out of whole cloth, as they are the ideas of Christ just reformatted.
Fair enough, but that begs the interrelated questions: edited and rearranged from what and where did that source (or those sources) get the sayings? At the very least we can dispense with the notion of having in the New Testament the ipsissima verba of Jesus. We have a general idea of what Jesus taught and a better idea of how early Christian writers were interpreting that teaching in the latter part of the first and early part of the second centuries...

Kind regards,
Jonathan
 
Fair enough, but that begs the interrelated questions: edited and rearranged from what and where did that source (or those sources) get the sayings? At the very least we can dispense with the notion of having in the New Testament the ipsissima verba of Jesus. We have a general idea of what Jesus taught and a better idea of how early Christian writers were interpreting that teaching in the latter part of the first and early part of the second centuries...

Kind regards,
Jonathan

Sure, it's standard Christian teaching that you need the Holy Spirit to understand what the Scriptures really say. The general idea of a thing—rather than exact wording—is always enough to convey the truth of it.
 
Fair enough, but that begs the interrelated questions: edited and rearranged from what and where did that source (or those sources) get the sayings? At the very least we can dispense with the notion of having in the New Testament the ipsissima verba of Jesus. We have a general idea of what Jesus taught and a better idea of how early Christian writers were interpreting that teaching in the latter part of the first and early part of the second centuries...
Would this be an ipsissima verba?

Acts 20: 35 In all this I have given you an example that by such work we must support the weak, remembering the words of the Lord Jesus, for he himself said, '‘It is more blessed to give than to receive."
 
Sure, it's standard Christian teaching that you need the Holy Spirit to understand what the Scriptures really say. The general idea of a thing—rather than exact wording—is always enough to convey the truth of it.
But that's what Christians then use to claim that other Christians are not understanding the text correctly. They simply proclaim by personal fiat some unverifiable and vapid notion that the other person obviously doesn't have the holy spirit working in them.

This is why the entire message is losing its ground. The empty rhetorical tricks employed to win a game of biblical one-upmanship have the same effect as playing magical wizard cards in a game of dungeons and dragons.
 
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To admit the sermon was heavily edited and rearranged is not to admit that it was made up out of whole cloth, as they are the ideas of Christ just reformatted.
But that lends itself to the concept that much of the bible is also heavily edited and rearranged stories and beliefs of other cultures as well. We can find many of them elsewhere.
 
But that lends itself to the concept that much of the bible is also heavily edited and rearranged stories and beliefs of other cultures as well. We can find many of them elsewhere.

Doesn't change the truths they convey.

But that's what Christians then use to claim that other Christians are not understanding the text correctly. They simply proclaim by personal fiat some unverifiable and vapid notion that the other person obviously doesn't have the holy spirit working in them.

This is why the entire message is losing its ground. The empty rhetorical tricks employed to win a game of biblical one-upmanship have the same effect as playing magical wizard cards in a game of dungeons and dragons.

Meh.

This isn't convincing at all for me.

Christians mishandle the message of Christianity, that happens.... doesn't invalidate it.
 
Would this be an ipsissima verba?

Acts 20: 35 In all this I have given you an example that by such work we must support the weak, remembering the words of the Lord Jesus, for he himself said, '‘It is more blessed to give than to receive."

Depend on Paul's memory I guess. Maybe he didn't get it verbatim.
 
Doesn't change the truths they convey.



Meh.

This isn't convincing at all for me.

Christians mishandle the message of Christianity, that happens.... doesn't invalidate it.
Doesn't invalidate it as much as it makes far less than verbal plenary inspiration. It can't seem to hold its form in the minds and hearts of the very beings He made in His own image. Why is this message of an all-powerful so weak as to not inspire clarity of thought concerning His message to us?
 
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