Zechariah 12:10. "Who was pierced, and poured out his spirit?"

101G

Well-known member
Zechariah 12:10 " And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn."

Psalms 22:16 " For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet."
Psalms 22:17 " I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me."
Psalms 22:18 " They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture."

Joel 2:28 " And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:"
Joel 2:29 " And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit."
 
Both instance, fufilled by the Lord Jesus.
the spirit of Grace we know, but what about the spirit of "supplications". the term when used as a Noun, A solemn request for help or expression of thanks addressed to God.

Fulfilled: Luke 2:25 " And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him."

PICJAG, 101G.
 
The Septuagint reads the verb דקר as רקד hence κατορχέομαι 'dance in triumph over one, treat despitefully', where-as דקר be δαίζω 'to cleave, slay'.

Zechariah is referring to Josiah and Zechariah's prophetic career was during the reign of Darius , that is, after the death of Josiah.

Corrected tenses
שפכתי κέχυκα "I have poured"
וספדו ἐκόψαντο "they mourned (by beating the chest)
והביטו ἐπεῖδον "they looked upon"

1 kings 13:2
Behold, a child shall be born unto the house of David, Josiah by name.

2 Chronciles 35:23
And the archers shot at king Josiah; and the king said to his servants, Have me away; for I am sore wounded.

2 Chronicles 35:25
Jeremiah lamented for Josiah: and all the singing men and the singing women spake of Josiah in their lamentations to this day, and made them an ordinance in Israel: and, behold, they are written in the lamentations
 
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The Septuagint reads the verb דקר as רקד hence κατορχέομαι 'dance in triumph over one, treat despitefully', where-as דקר be δαίζω 'to cleave, slay'.

Zechariah is referring to Josiah and Zechariah's prophetic career was during the reign of Darius , that is, after the death of Josiah.

Corrected tenses
שפכתי κέχυκα "I have poured"
וספדו ἐκόψαντο "they mourned (by beating the chest)
והביטו ἐπεῖδον "they looked upon"

1 kings 13:2
Behold, a child shall be born unto the house of David, Josiah by name.

2 Chronciles 35:23
And the archers shot at king Josiah; and the king said to his servants, Have me away; for I am sore wounded.

2 Chronicles 35:25
Jeremiah lamented for Josiah: and all the singing men and the singing women spake of Josiah in their lamentations to this day, and made them an ordinance in Israel: and, behold, they are written in the lamentations
First thanks for the reply. second, bad effort on your part. third ,we diisagree with your assessment. so, one question, did Josiah and or Zechariah had the spirit of "GRACE", and the spirit of "supplications" to pour out?
looking to hear back from you.

PICJAG, 101G
 
חן and תחנון are mistranslated into grace and supplications, rather then of ἐλεός; pity, mercy, compassion, an object of compassion.

2 Samuel 12:22 יחנני - ἐλεήσει με 'will pity me'
 
חן and תחנון are mistranslated into grace and supplications, rather then of ἐλεός; pity, mercy, compassion, an object of compassion.

2 Samuel 12:22 יחנני - ἐλεήσει με 'will pity me'
thanks for the clarification, which is right down our ally. another word for "Mercy", and "compassion" is GRACE, and helpfulness
now let's look at this terminology in the Dr. and Preacher Luke account at chapter 2 and verse 25.

Luke 2:25 " And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him."

this term "consolation" as said, means, "a person or thing providing comfort to a person who has suffered". now lets look at the Greek.
G3874 παράκλησις paraklesis (pa-ra'-klee-sis) n.
1. an imploration, entreaty (urgent request (for mercy or help)).
2. an exhortation (urgent counsel, encouragement, or caution).
3. a comfort, solace.
[from G3870]
KJV: comfort, consolation, exhortation, intreaty

notice definition #1. a request for MERCY and "HELP", just what you said lee. and the term "supplications", when used as a Noun, A solemn request for help or expression of thanks addressed to God. THERE IT IS ...... a request for "help"

if one would get a dictionary, consolation is just another word for a request for help as with supplications (see the definition above).

and definition #3, makes it very, very, very clear.... "Comfort".

lets break this down. one who gives help is a "HELPER", and one who gives comfort is a "COMFORTER". now fuilled scripture, John 15:26 " But when the
Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:"

yues, ANOTHER "COMFORTER" another in as G243. and that word "Comforter" is also translated as .... "HELPER".

thanks Lee for confirming the Spirit of Grace, and supplications. and when the Lord Jesus was pierced, after his resurrection of the BODY, he on the day of Pentecost ... "POURED" out his Spirit on all flesh as Joel stated, and the apostle Peter confirmed.

so thanks Lee for the clarification , the OT has just been revealede of the the NT.

PICJAG, 101G.
 
so, we see it's not a mistranslation.... no, but just another word used instead....... for the Proverb is correct, Proverbs 25:2 " It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter."

as the same Holy Spirit said by his apostle Paul, 2 Timothy 2:15 " Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

as with Joel chapter 2, also Zechariah 12:10, the promise of the Holy Spirit is comfirmed.

PICJAG, 101G.
 
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Luke emulates the Septuagint, hence its use of παρακαλέω rather then παραμυθέομαι (התנחם)

Genesis 37:35 - להתנחם = παραμυθήσασθαι "to speak comfortably, to reassure"
Zechariah 1:13 - דברים נחמים = ἔπεα παραμυθητικῶν "words of consolation"

The Hebrew word for supplication is מתפלל = αντιβαλλων
התפלל = ἀντιβάλλω 'exchange words in conversion
תפלה = ἀντιβόλησις = ἀντιβολία; an entreaty

These words are not used in Zechariah 12:10
 
Luke emulates the Septuagint, hence its use of παρακαλέω rather then παραμυθέομαι (התנחם)

Genesis 37:35 - להתנחם = παραμυθήσασθαι "to speak comfortably, to reassure"
Zechariah 1:13 - דברים נחמים = ἔπεα παραμυθητικῶν "words of consolation"

The Hebrew word for supplication is מתפלל = αντιβαλλων
התפלל = ἀντιβάλλω 'exchange words in conversion
תפלה = ἀντιβόλησις = ἀντιβολία; an entreaty

These words are not used in Zechariah 12:10
GINOLJC TO ALL,
first thanks for the reply. second we differ with you.
supplication: https://biblehub.com/text/zechariah/12-10.htm
and also at https://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/zec12.pdf

supplicatio: nH8469 תַּחֲנוּן tachanuwn (tach-an-oon') n-m.
תַּחֲנוּנָה tachanuwnah (tach-an-oo-naw') [feminine]
earnest prayer.
[from H2603]
KJV: intreaty, supplication.
Root(s): H2603


Zechariah 12:10
HEB: ר֤וּחַ חֵן֙ וְתַ֣חֲנוּנִ֔ים וְהִבִּ֥יטוּ אֵלַ֖י
NAS: of grace and of supplication, so that they will look
KJV: of grace and of supplications: and they shall look
INT: the Spirit of grace supplication will look about

PICJAG, 101G.
 
The strong's lexicon is outdated. I suspect תחנון is equivalent too ἐλεεινολογία 'piteous appeal. In Jeremiah it is used alongside בכי κωκυτός lamentation.

Zechariah 12:11
- המספד ὁ κομμός ; striking; esp. beating of the head and breast in lamentation
* κόπτω (ספד) > κομμός (מספד)


זכריה (Zechariah) means ἁνήρ Διός "Man of God" and not Jehovah remembers, another error in the strong's concordance.
 
The strong's lexicon is outdated. I suspect תחנון is equivalent too ἐλεεινολογία 'piteous appeal. In Jeremiah it is used alongside בכי κωκυτός lamentation.

Zechariah 12:11
- המספד ὁ κομμός ; striking; esp. beating of the head and breast in lamentation
* κόπτω (ספד) > κομμός (מספד)


זכריה (Zechariah) means ἁνήρ Διός "Man of God" and not Jehovah remembers, another error in the strong's concordance.
so the bible hub is out dated too? nope. it's you who is Outdated.

this is a calassic excuse..... OUTDATED.

:sick:
 
so the bible hub is out dated too? nope. it's you who is Outdated.

this is a calassic excuse..... OUTDATED.

:sick:

The Cambridge Greek Lexicon was recently released which supplants the LSJ, Middle Liddell and Autenrieth. However Theologians use the old Strong's Concordance of Hebrew and Greek of the 19th century.

The Septuagint consistently uses κόπτομαι for ספד
- κόπτομαι; beat or strike oneself, beat one's breast or head through grief.

Jeremiah 16:6 - Neither shall men lament (יספדו) for them nor cut themselves (יתגדד - συγκεντέουσι)
 
The Septuagint reads the verb דקר as רקד hence κατορχέομαι 'dance in triumph over one, treat despitefully', where-as דקר be δαίζω 'to cleave, slay'.

Zechariah is referring to Josiah and Zechariah's prophetic career was during the reign of Darius , that is, after the death of Josiah.

Corrected tenses
שפכתי κέχυκα "I have poured"
וספדו ἐκόψαντο "they mourned (by beating the chest)
והביטו ἐπεῖδον "they looked upon"

1 kings 13:2
Behold, a child shall be born unto the house of David, Josiah by name.

2 Chronciles 35:23
And the archers shot at king Josiah; and the king said to his servants, Have me away; for I am sore wounded.

2 Chronicles 35:25
Jeremiah lamented for Josiah: and all the singing men and the singing women spake of Josiah in their lamentations to this day, and made them an ordinance in Israel: and, behold, they are written in the lamentations
Jesus Christ is the ultimate fulfillment of that prophecy!
 
The Cambridge Greek Lexicon was recently released which supplants the LSJ, Middle Liddell and Autenrieth. However Theologians use the old Strong's Concordance of Hebrew and Greek of the 19th century.

The Septuagint consistently uses κόπτομαι for ספד
- κόπτομαι; beat or strike oneself, beat one's breast or head through grief.

Jeremiah 16:6 - Neither shall men lament (יספדו) for them nor cut themselves (יתגדד - συγκεντέουσι)
lets clear up a matter. what has been the JEWS, not all, problem is this. pronouns in second or third persons. as in Zechariah 12:10 " And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn."

did one see the change in pronouns? him, and his. or as in this scripture, watch the change. Isaiah 35:4 " Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you."

Active voice to passive voice. and the root of unbeliving Jews is this.... "God is a plurality of himself", in ordinal designations of First and Last. this is why "Last" in Isaiah 41:4 is plural. because Hebrew rule for ordinal numbers after ONE is always plural. because ordinal numbers after one follows one another, as in First and Last or the second or third day. understand one cannot have a third day unless there is a first, and a second day. BINGO. as in Isaiah 41:4 the Last cannot be singlar because there is a FIRST, hence the plurality, FIRST and LAST, ordinal numbers after one are plural.

now with God in the ECHAD, as in Deut 6:4, God is a H430 אֱלֹהִים 'elohiym (el-o-heem') which is more than one, meaning not a yachid, which is a singular. so God is either a Cardinal or Ordinal designation. and the answer is ordinal. for if God was Cardinal in NATURE, then it would be two seperate person/Natures, and that's anti bible. but if God was an Ordinal of himself them he would have to be a unity of ONE, or a EQUAL SHARE of One. answer a EQUAL SHARE, for a unity requires two separate parties, or persons, as one, (which is the trinitarians mistake). because there is no one equal to the one true God, but he alone. in the EQUAL SHARE, yes, because the share is the same one person.

knowing this, the person in Zechariah 12:10, (the active Voice, I and ME, and his), God the Ordinal First is speaking of himself as the Ordinal Last, (him), the Passive voice. just as in Isaiah 35:4 . your God, (the active Voice), the Ordinal First, will come, but he (the Passive voice), tthe Ordinal Last, will save you.

so the challenge is to prove that God is a ECHAD in a plurality of Ordinal First and Last. which the bible do. right in the very first verse of the Bible.
Genesis 1:1 " In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."
God:
H430 אֱלֹהִים 'elohiym (el-o-heem') n-m.
אֱלֹהֵי 'elohiy (el-o-hee') [alternate plural]
1. (literally) supreme ones.
2. (hence, in the ordinary sense) gods.
3. (specifically, in the plural, especially with the article) the Supreme God (i.e. the all supreme).
4. (sometimes) supreme, used as a superlative.
5. (occasionally, by way of deference) supreme magistrates, the highest magistrates of the land.
6. (also) the supreme angels (entities of unspecified type).
[plural of H433]
KJV: angels, X exceeding, God (gods)(-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty.
Root(s): H433

there it is ........ plural of H433
H433 אֱלוֹהַּ 'elowahh (el-o'-ah) n-m.
אֱלֹהַּ 'eloahh (el-o'-ah) [shortened (rarely)]
1. one with supreme strength and ability.
2. the Supreme Being, God the Creator, Yahweh by name.
3. a supreme entity, a god-like creature (that is, one of God's supreme creations, or one of man's inventions).
[probably prolonged (emphat.) from H410]
KJV: God, god.
Root(s): H410

NOT A PLURAL "FROM", NO, BUT THE PLURAL, "OF" H433 the same ONE PERSON, BIG DIFFERENCE.

so, God is a plural of, of, of himself.

PICJAG, 101G.
 
Genesis 22:2 - 'Take now thy son, thine only son (יחיד) Isaac' (even though Abraham had other sons)

The ancient interpretation is latest-born i.e. after whom no more are born, including only-children, are the most beloved. So in Genesis 22:2 and Zechariah 12:10, the Septuagint translates יחיד into ἀγαπητός 'beloved'.

The Ancient Greek translation of יחיד is either ἑνάδος or μονώτατος 'one above all others

Herodotus 7:3
At Sparta too it was customary that if sons were born before their father became king, and another son born later when the father was king, the succession to the kingship belongs to the later-born.

Josiah was an only child.
 
GINOLJC, to all
The Spirit of GRACE.... another word for GRACE is "MERCY, so the consolation of Israel is the Spirit of GRACE/Mercy, and the Spirit of supplications:/help.
there it is, the Lord Jesus is that MERCY and he is that Help

consolation: G3874 παράκλησις paraklesis (pa-ra'-klee-sis) n.
1. an imploration, entreaty (urgent request (for mercy or help)).
2. an exhortation (urgent counsel, encouragement, or caution).
3. a comfort, solace.
[from G3870]
KJV: comfort, consolation, exhortation, intreaty
Root(s): G3870

mercy or help a blind man can see that.

PICJAG, 101G.
 
the IGNORANT Jews now know that the MESSIAH is the Spirit of MERCY and GRACE, who was pierced, yes, the Lord Jesus, God in flesh.
U have the scriptures, and the revealing of the Lord Jesus as the Messiah. I leave this in God's hands now. U have been told/shown by OT Scriptures.
so, Shalom

✋
 
Zechariah 12:10 " And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn."

Psalms 22:16 " For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet."
Psalms 22:17 " I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me."
Psalms 22:18 " They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture."

Joel 2:28 " And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:"
Joel 2:29 " And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit."
You are misunderstanding Zechariah 12:10 and to reveal what it really is all about I will take you to Jesus' words in Mathew 25:31-45 below and please read it carefully also.


Matthew 25:31-45
31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”


Now notice the two verses in the bold red and what Jesus said in them, for whatever they did or didn't do unto his disciples they did or didn't do it unto him and the scriptures cannot be broken either, for Jesus explains Zechariah 12:10 and why both he and the Father were pierce when they pierced Jesus.


Then you will notice that even Jesus' mother received a prophecy that she also would be pierced by the death of her son in Luke

Luke 2:

34 Then Simeon blessed them and said to Mary, his mother: “This child is destined to cause the falling and rising of many in Israel, and to be a sign that will be spoken against, 35 so that the thoughts of many hearts will be revealed. And a sword will pierce your own soul too.”

My point here, is that Jesus himself laid down a principle that when they do it to the representatives, they do it to him who sent the representatives and thus when they pierced Jesus, they also pierced him who sent him in the Spirit.

Therefore sorry, but Zechariah 12:10 is no proof that Jesus is Yahweh God at all period.

 
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