Zechariah 12:10?

ApologeticsGuy

New Member
Hello, I often have used Zechariah 12:10 in the context of evangelism and I had a question. It reads in the ESV, ““And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that, when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn.”

I like to listen to James White and he says that the Septuagint was the main Bible of the early church. Now I do not read Greek/Hebrew very well, but when I look at the Greek on Biblehub it doesn’t use the word “pierced” and it’s hard to tell if the change in pronouns “they will mourn for Him” is as explicit as it is in Hebrew and how it reads in English translations.

So I guess my question is for those who read Greek better than I do, is the Hebrew reading more of an explicit description of Jesus? Why or why not? Also, is the implied pronoun change (“they will mourn for Him” and “they will look on Me”) as explicit in Greek as it is in Hebrew? I just want to be consistent when I am sharing the Gospel with people and not just use the Greek or the Hebrew based on whether it is more detailed in a given scenario. Any help would be appreciated!
 
The Hebrew is clear, using דקר:

qal: pf. דָּקָֽרוּ, דְּקָרֻהוּ/נִי, impf. יִדְקֹר, יִדְקְרֵהוּ, impv. דָּקְרֵנִי: to pierce through Nu 25:8 Ju 9:54 1S 31:4 Zech 12:10 13:3 1C 10:4. †

nif: יִדָּקֵר: to be pierced through: Is 13:15. †

pu: pt. מְדֻקָּרִים: to be pierced through Jr 37:10 51:4; ? Lam 4:9 מִתְּנוּבֹת שָׂדָֽי

Koehler, L., Baumgartner, W., Richardson, M. E. J., & Stamm, J. J. (1994–2000). The Hebrew and Aramaic lexicon of the Old Testament (electronic ed., p. 230). Leiden: E.J. Brill.

The LXX uses κατωρχήσαντο, from κατορχέομαι, "to dance mockingly in front of" hence "to mock, insult." While it may be true that what became the LXX was quoted in the NT, the OT was originally written in Hebrew, and the LXX is a translation. Since the vast majority of the ancient world at that time spoke at least some Greek, the NT writers used the translation available to them, but that doesn't mean it's a perfect translation, any more than any modern translation (though most modern translations are perfectly serviceable for worship and evangelism). Therefore it is to the Hebrew we must go to settle such questions, and I think you can confidently continue using the verse.

As to why the difference, I think your commentary cited above captures it. It's possible that the LXX translsator had a different Hebrew word in the Vorlage he was using, or that they are interpreting it metaphorically. I'm guessing that seems to undercut, for you, the messianic interpretation of the passage that you emphasize in your evangelism, but go with your English translation of the Hebrew, and you'll be fine.
 
Hello, I often have used Zechariah 12:10 in the context of evangelism and I had a question. It reads in the ESV, ““And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that, when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn.”

I like to listen to James White and he says that the Septuagint was the main Bible of the early church. Now I do not read Greek/Hebrew very well, but when I look at the Greek on Biblehub it doesn’t use the word “pierced” and it’s hard to tell if the change in pronouns “they will mourn for Him” is as explicit as it is in Hebrew and how it reads in English translations.

So I guess my question is for those who read Greek better than I do, is the Hebrew reading more of an explicit description of Jesus? Why or why not? Also, is the implied pronoun change (“they will mourn for Him” and “they will look on Me”) as explicit in Greek as it is in Hebrew? I just want to be consistent when I am sharing the Gospel with people and not just use the Greek or the Hebrew based on whether it is more detailed in a given scenario. Any help would be appreciated!
There is a textual difference in some manuscripts which explains where John got 19:37

Edwin D. Freed, "Old Testament Quotations in the Gospel of John," pages 109,11 states "that some fifty Heb. mss. read eliv (on him) and it is this text upon which Jn is dependent."

And so some versions like the NRSV are similar to John 19:7.

Zech12:10 when they look on the one whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him
 
I read a detailed analysis that the times when the Hebrew expression in this statement - They will look on me whom they pierced- is used always would mean "me whom". This was interesting for me, because I guessed that "me whom" was a misinterpretation, but the close analysis disproves this.

You might want to check if Dr. Michael Brown wrote anything on this.


It reminds me of the place in Isaiah 26 (NKJV) where it talks about the dead rising with "my corpse", the speaker being God. I don't know whether this checks out in Hebrew, but my guess is that the same curious kind of statement comes up there too.
 
I read a detailed analysis that the times when the Hebrew expression in this statement - They will look on me whom they pierced- is used always would mean "me whom". This was interesting for me, because I guessed that "me whom" was a misinterpretation, but the close analysis disproves this.

You might want to check if Dr. Michael Brown wrote anything on this.


It reminds me of the place in Isaiah 26 (NKJV) where it talks about the dead rising with "my corpse", the speaker being God. I don't know whether this checks out in Hebrew, but my guess is that the same curious kind of statement comes up there too.
Not sure exactly what your getting at, but Isa 28:19 is somewhat difficult in the Hebrew and is much discussed in the commentary literature, particularly whether it is figuratively talking about the restoration of the nation of Israel, presaging the literal resurrection of the dead, or both. As for "me whom" there is nothing difficult about that, simply the relative pronoun "whom" referring back to the pronoun "me."
 
Not sure exactly what your getting at, but Isa 28:19 is somewhat difficult in the Hebrew and is much discussed in the commentary literature, particularly whether it is figuratively talking about the restoration of the nation of Israel, presaging the literal resurrection of the dead, or both.
Isaiah 28:19 is:
" From the time that it goeth forth it shall take you: for morning by morning shall it pass over, by day and by night: and it shall be a vexation only to understand the report."

I was referring to Isaiah 26 (KJV):
"Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead."

יִֽחְי֣וּ מֵתֶ֔יךָ נְבֵלָתִ֖י יְקוּמ֑וּן הָקִ֨יצוּ וְרַנְּנ֜וּ שֹׁכְנֵ֣י עָפָ֗ר כִּ֣י טַ֤ל אֹורֹת֙ טַלֶּ֔ךָ וָאָ֖רֶץ רְפָאִ֥ים תַּפִּֽיל׃ ס

For this part of Isaiah 26, The major Russian Orthodox scholar Lopukhin comments:
These are those in which Christ dwells and whom therefore should resurrect, just as He Himself resurrected (1 Corinthians 15 and ch.; 2 Cor. 1:22; 2 Cor. 5: 5; John 6:54).
 
Isaiah 28:19 is:
" From the time that it goeth forth it shall take you: for morning by morning shall it pass over, by day and by night: and it shall be a vexation only to understand the report."

I was referring to Isaiah 26 (KJV):
"Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead."

יִֽחְי֣וּ מֵתֶ֔יךָ נְבֵלָתִ֖י יְקוּמ֑וּן הָקִ֨יצוּ וְרַנְּנ֜וּ שֹׁכְנֵ֣י עָפָ֗ר כִּ֣י טַ֤ל אֹורֹת֙ טַלֶּ֔ךָ וָאָ֖רֶץ רְפָאִ֥ים תַּפִּֽיל׃ ס

For this part of Isaiah 26, The major Russian Orthodox scholar Lopukhin comments:
Sorry, typo. My comments were directed toward 26:19.
 
Zech 12:10 is very different in the LXX from the Hebrew.

It reads (from the Hebrew) in the ESV, ““And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that, when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn.”

And from the LXX (Bagster ed., London, no date [presumably 1884, by Brenton]): “And I will pour out on the house of Daviid, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and compassion; and they shall look upon me, because they have mocked me, and they shall make lamentation for him, as for a beloved friend, and they shall grieve intensely, as for a firstborn son."
 
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I am told that the figurative meaning of daqar (דֶּקֶר) is to revile. The literal meaning is to piece through. The LXX used the figurative meaning in translation, rather than the literal meaning, which I guess has quite a few ramifications for those who imagine the LXX is somehow more authoritative than the Hebrew, e.g. in places like Heb 1:8, where the LXX translation inserts an article before "theos" which is missing in the Hebrew before Elohim.
 
The literal meaning is to pierce through.
This is Strong's Hebrew 1856. It means pierce, stab, run through (as in Nu 25:8), also a speedy death. In Lam 4:9 it is used to describe death by hunger.
I must admit I cannot find it used for "revile", either in Mandelkern, B-D-B Lexicon, or Jastrow's Dictionary.
 
My copy of Strong's Exh. Concondance also says daqar is figurative for "revile", but I have not found any example of this. Perhaps it is a matter of medieval Hebrew usage. I checked my dictionaries for the Hebrew words for "revile" and nothing resembled daqar. Strong, was a scholar of considerable talent and a participant in working up the American Standard Version.
 
Perhaps it is a matter of medieval Hebrew usage.
More likely to be a matter of usage 3rd through the 1st centuries BC, when the LXX was written, as nothing could account for the LXX translation of Zech 12:10 apart from a figurative usage of daqar.
 
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