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The things that bother me about CC

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  • The things that bother me about CC

    In the Mormonism forum, a thread was started by a active LDS member about the definition of a cult. I being a ex-Mormon asked her to write down the things that bother her about the LDS church, history, and leadership as a exercise in and example of what a cult might be, by not being able to be honest with ourselves.

    So to not be a hypocrite, these are some of the things that bother me about CC.
    • It was co-founded by Lonnie Frisbee, and practicing homosexual and "party-er"
    • The "cover up" and lack of taking responsibility for the truths about Lonnie.
    • No real financial accountability between the leadership and the folks
    • Too much senior pastor (SP) control
    • No real biblical Elder-ship
    • The current split and what is developing...mostly uncertainty and lack of leadership?
    • The inability for Chuck Smith and other pastors to acknowledge CC is a denomination.
    • The us against them attitude that is often developed between the (SP) ( staff to a degree) and the folks.
    • Wife/s of the SP sometime steer the ship in regards to certain aspects of the fellowship...apart from elder-ship.

    I am not saying that god is not using CC, or "sanctifying" it...CC is a great place to worship and fellowship...and grow in the Lord and I recommend it to anyone and everyone.

    I am just being honest with my thoughts and feelings, and trying not to be a bigger hypocrite than I am. I was a Mormon for 34 years, and when I came out 26 years ago I told myself I would never, ever hide what I believe are uncomfortable truths from myself.

    I posted this here in that I assume Mormons on the Mormon forum will ask me to do what I asked them to do.

    But there has been a great difficulty in getting anything into the heads of this generation. It has been like splitting hemlock knots with a corn-dodger for a wedge, and a pumpkin for a beetle. Even the Saints are slow to understand. Joseph Smith...

  • #2
    Originally posted by Markk View Post
    In the Mormonism forum, a thread was started by a active LDS member about the definition of a cult. I being a ex-Mormon asked her to write down the things that bother her about the LDS church, history, and leadership as a exercise in and example of what a cult might be, by not being able to be honest with ourselves.

    So to not be a hypocrite, these are some of the things that bother me about CC.
    • It was co-founded by Lonnie Frisbee, and practicing homosexual and "party-er"
    • The "cover up" and lack of taking responsibility for the truths about Lonnie.
    • No real financial accountability between the leadership and the folks
    • Too much senior pastor (SP) control
    • No real biblical Elder-ship
    • The current split and what is developing...mostly uncertainty and lack of leadership?
    • The inability for Chuck Smith and other pastors to acknowledge CC is a denomination.
    • The us against them attitude that is often developed between the (SP) ( staff to a degree) and the folks.
    • Wife/s of the SP sometime steer the ship in regards to certain aspects of the fellowship...apart from elder-ship.

    I am not saying that god is not using CC, or "sanctifying" it...CC is a great place to worship and fellowship...and grow in the Lord and I recommend it to anyone and everyone.

    I am just being honest with my thoughts and feelings, and trying not to be a bigger hypocrite than I am. I was a Mormon for 34 years, and when I came out 26 years ago I told myself I would never, ever hide what I believe are uncomfortable truths from myself.

    I posted this here in that I assume Mormons on the Mormon forum will ask me to do what I asked them to do.
    So what church do you believe is the best now that you are done with Calvary Chapel?
    "The exact sciences also start from the assumption that in the end it will always be possible to understand nature, even in every new field of experience, but that we make no a priori assumptions about the meaning of the word "understand"."

    Heisenberg
    .....................

    " It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, and it is the glory of a king to search out a matter. " ( Proverbs 25:2 )

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by inertia View Post

      So what church do you believe is the best now that you are done with Calvary Chapel?
      I did not say I was done with CC, I am just being honest with myself. There is no perfect place to fellowship so to speak, especially if I am there.
      But there has been a great difficulty in getting anything into the heads of this generation. It has been like splitting hemlock knots with a corn-dodger for a wedge, and a pumpkin for a beetle. Even the Saints are slow to understand. Joseph Smith...

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Markk View Post
        In the Mormonism forum, a thread was started by a active LDS member about the definition of a cult. I being a ex-Mormon asked her to write down the things that bother her about the LDS church, history, and leadership as a exercise in and example of what a cult might be, by not being able to be honest with ourselves.

        So to not be a hypocrite, these are some of the things that bother me about CC.
        • It was co-founded by Lonnie Frisbee, and practicing homosexual and "party-er"
        • The "cover up" and lack of taking responsibility for the truths about Lonnie.
        • No real financial accountability between the leadership and the folks
        • Too much senior pastor (SP) control
        • No real biblical Elder-ship
        • The current split and what is developing...mostly uncertainty and lack of leadership?
        • The inability for Chuck Smith and other pastors to acknowledge CC is a denomination.
        • The us against them attitude that is often developed between the (SP) ( staff to a degree) and the folks.
        • Wife/s of the SP sometime steer the ship in regards to certain aspects of the fellowship...apart from elder-ship.


        I am not saying that god is not using CC, or "sanctifying" it...CC is a great place to worship and fellowship...and grow in the Lord and I recommend it to anyone and everyone.

        I am just being honest with my thoughts and feelings, and trying not to be a bigger hypocrite than I am. I was a Mormon for 34 years, and when I came out 26 years ago I told myself I would never, ever hide what I believe are uncomfortable truths from myself.

        I posted this here in that I assume Mormons on the Mormon forum will ask me to do what I asked them to do.
        Curious....
        I've been attending CC since 1977.
        I got saved following a Monday evening bible study with Greg Laurie in 1977, and upon my committing to follow Jesus, I attended a local CC in the town I lived. During that time, the asst pastor decided God wanted him to be pastor, and so drove a church split, driving the main pastor out, dividing the church. A lot of godly people got hurt. I think I was more confused than hurt, but hurt was probably a good part of it. For some reason, somewhere I got the idea that once we became christians, our sin no longer would be a problem.... obviously I was mistaken. I later returned to CCCM, where CC got its start, and attended weekly bible studies, until I moved out of the area, and back to the other end of the county, where I attended another CC. During that time, another split took place, and that CC became the Vineyard.
        Each time, I saw more, and more, and more issues arise that I was really bothered by.
        Thankfully, during that era, there was a great radio host on a christian radio station in So. Cal, by the name of Rich Buhler, on KBRT.
        One day he answered some issues, and said that what we were observing was not a bible problem or a Jesus problem, but a people problem.
        I.e., people who followed either Jesus, or others who followed Jesus were being 100% human, and dealing with the sin in their own lives, which sadly had a fallout on the rest of us.

        Over the next 30 years, I've had to deal with my own sin, and one thought rose to the top of it all..... kind of like the churning of milk into butter--- cream rises to the top.
        I have to decide what's more important to me.... Am I going to follow Jesus, or will I follow those who claim to follow Jesus?
        What did Jesus say to Peter, in John 21, when Peter and Jesus were strolling the lakeshore, and Peter asked-- what about John?
        Jesus' response is perfect---- what does it matter to you if I decide that John remains alive until I come? You follow Me!!!

        In other words, Jesus told Peter--- John is none of your concern. You follow Me. Let me deal with John, between he and myself.

        I get that you have problems with church. I've been following Jesus since 1977. I've got thousands of problems with churches, plural, and more importantly-- with people, as individuals.
        Why? Simple---
        Because of sin.
        My sin, their sin, and the sin which takes place when people interact.
        It's a difficult, and often painful thing to love my brothers and sisters in Christ when they hurt me, whether knowingly, or unbeknownst to them. It's even more painful when I realize I've hurt them, and can only ask for forgiveness for acting like such a jack a88.

        Here's a novel thought for you. Something I've heard for decades--- if you ever find a perfect church--- don't go. You'll ruin it. More importantly, you'll see the imperfections of others, and that realization will ruin it for you.
        Another idiom I hear more frequently nowadays--- marriage is made of up two imperfect people, learning to get along with an imperfect person. As we who follow Jesus make up the bride of Christ--- this can get real sticky, real fast.


        In the end, we're all told the same exact thing--- Place your attention on Jesus, who is the author, and finisher of our faith. Hebrews 12:1-3.

        It's not easy. There have been plenty of times over the past 40 years that I've wanted to rip someone a new derriere for their harsh treatment of myself, or a loved one. I've had plenty of times where I gossiped about someone who I thought hurt me, or a loved one. And you know something-- I had to repent, and rectify those situations. Especially in light of Proverbs 6, where we read that God hates those who sow discord among the brotherhood of God's People. Life is painful enough without our human stupidities. It gets even more painful when we piss God off, by doing those things which dishonor him. The old adage of being taken out to the woodshed takes on a whole new perspective--- when it's God who does the disciplining (Hebrews 12:3-8).

        So.... I could go on here for a while, citing passages, showing my painful experiences, and the griefs I've experienced over the decades. But let me put this out to you.
        1- Who are you following?
        Jesus
        or
        a church?

        2- Who do you want to follow? I.e., do you want eternal life, or are you content with just being a religious person in this life, and then suffering the ignominy of your sin for the rest of eternity?
        Jesus,
        or
        a church, specific bible teacher?

        3- What matters more to you?
        Eternal life
        or
        being vindicated right now, for all the wrongs and hurts perpetrated on you/your loved ones?

        4- We're asked to forgive, as we've been forgiven. Matthew 6, 18, Mark 11, and several others.

        Forgiveness is not a feeling. We're not being asked to "forgive AND Forget." We're being told to forgive.

        Forgiveness is releasing someone from the obligation to pay a just debt, a restitution for a wrong done.
        Look at the example Jesus gives in Matthew 18. The servant had a legitimate debt he owed the king. The debt was so massive that the king knew full well the servant could not repay it, no matter how hard he worked, and labored to do so. Thus, the king just released him from that debt, and let the matter go.
        What's so astounding is--- the servant didn't believe the king actually released him. He still really wanted to pay the debt back. So.... what did he do? He found someone who owed him a few bucks, and demanded payment. The other servant pleaded for more time to make good, but the main servant refused, and had him thrown in jail until he could repay the smaller, far more reasonable debt.

        So..... here's a question for you.

        Will you forgive the issues with the CC people, with whom you have a problem or will you send them to "debtor's prison" until they can repay you for the perceived, and apparently just wrongs you have against them?

        If not.... do you really think God will ignore or dismiss you from your sin? Look again at Matthew 6, Mark 11, and Matthew 18.

        This is a painful pill to swallow. It's entirely up to you. I will say this--- you not only hurt the heart of God. You hurt yourself, those whom you refuse to release from obligation to you, and your fellow believers, who love you, and are loved by you.

        Is the price you'll pay really worth it?

        5- Just how do you think this will play out for you?
        Do you think God will ignore it?
        Remember, according to Romans 14, each and every single one of us will stand before God, and give an account for our lives to Him. Both saint, and sinner. Saved and unsaved, redeemed, and damned.
        The saved, saint, and redeemed will have a separate judgment from the sinner, unsaved, and damned. But the judgment/accounting will be complete, and whole.

        6- look through the gospels at the parables of servants of the king, who tried covering up some scheme, but got caught. Look at the guy who made it all the way into the wedding feast hall, without a provided garment, and was found by the king. He made it all the way to great hall where the wedding feast of the Son was taking place, but didn't have a wedding garment on..... How in the world did that happen?

        Did any of those people get away with their actions/words?

        As someone who is learning daily to continue following Jesus, after 40+ years, and who just happens to attend a local CC where I live.... I beg you......
        follow Jesus.

        No one says you have to attend CC. My wife and I attended a local community church for 14 years, before we learned there was a CC in town. And this isn't that large of a town where we live.

        Every year, we have a service appreciation dinner. Every year, and recently, probably 3-5 times a year I tell my pastor, and fellow congregants how grateful I am that he teaches from the bible, and not just pleasant stories.

        Last Sunday, I got to talk with him, and I reiterated with a much greater emphasis to him the importance I place on his teaching the bible, and just how grateful I am. I further told him why, and how important it was to me that he actually understood that. I did so, because I've gotten the feeling that he just brushes it off, as those it's a little thing.

        In 100 years, I want to see you in God's Kingdom. I want to laugh with you, and rejoice in God's Grace with you, in the Kingdom.
        Please.... I realize we don't know each other now, but we each partake and drink from the same Holy Spirit. We are kin-- PERIOD.
        We've both experienced the life and love of Jesus.
        Please don't let others, and bad experiences separate you from our Father.

        It's been a pain-filled, often frustrating, and often joyous life for the past 40 years. Jesus, and God have demonstrated themselves faithful to their word-- the bible. And in their faithfullness to their word, they've demonstrated faithfulness to me.
        In that faithfulness, I've experienced love, mercy, forgiveness, joy, satisfaction, judgment on my sin, discipline to separate me from those sins which I thought I could cover up, and get away with. I've known the reliability of God's Word, not just as some abstract construct, but in real life, where I hurt so deep I could hardly breathe, and where the darkness was so filled with despair that I thought it was all over with. And as a light in a dark room, God slowly shined in, at first like a flicker, slowly increasing in brightness, until every darkness was driven out, and I felt like I was standing in a room so bright that I couldn't handle it.


        As I said--- or... more importantly, as Jesus said in Matthew 18.
        The servant's debt to the king was a legitimate debt. He had every right to demand repayment of that debt. They debt was so huge that no matter how long, how hard, how diligently the servant worked, it could never be repaid. Not because the servant didn't want to make good on the debt. But because he simply lacked the resources/wherewithal to accomplish it.

        Thus, Jesus paid our debt. He paid it in full. John 17:30



        Now.... for your list.
        • It was co-founded by Lonnie Frisbee, and practicing homosexual and "party-er"
        • The "cover up" and lack of taking responsibility for the truths about Lonnie.
        • No real financial accountability between the leadership and the folks
        • Too much senior pastor (SP) control
        • No real biblical Elder-ship
        • The current split and what is developing...mostly uncertainty and lack of leadership?
        • The inability for Chuck Smith and other pastors to acknowledge CC is a denomination.
        • The us against them attitude that is often developed between the (SP) ( staff to a degree) and the folks.
        • Wife/s of the SP sometime steer the ship in regards to certain aspects of the fellowship...apart from elder-ship.


        In all honesty, Chuck worked with Lonnie, because Lonnie was out on the beaches of So Cal, telling hippies about Jesus.
        Lonnie's sin finally caught up with Lonnie. Sadly, Lonnie has had to deal with his sin--- just like you and I do. How will you deal with yours? Will you cover yours, by pointing out the sin of others?
        I haven't heard of financial issues. I know the board of elders at my local CC keep a tight watch on our finances. Some think too tight. I'm glad someone else with greater financial acuity is watching.
        It was Chuck's fellowship. In the beginning he had a USMC Drill Sargent, by the name of Romaine. If ever there was someone who intimidated me, it was Romaine. I even had dreams about the guy, and the dreams scared me.

        As for biblical eldership, you'll have to describe that. Remember--- you're an ex-mormon. CC believes the LDS to be a cult, started by a liar. So, the way the LDS views eldership is going to differ dramatically.

        As for denomination, I don't really have a problem with that. Denominations typically have a set of rules which define that community. In my early days--- it was not. Once the booklet--- Calvary Chapel Distinctives-- came out, THAT booklet is what defined it as a denomination. So, consider it from us older guy's perspective--- in the early days it was as far from the denominational churches we grew up in--- Methodist, Catholic, Lutheran, LDS, BAptist, etc...... as it could get.
        Chuck was so anti-denominational, that he worked as hard as he could to keep us from becoming one.
        But I do believe that now, CC is a denomination. My only hope is that we don't go the way of all previous denominations.
        Chuck's goal was to introduce us to Jesus, and make sure that we knew God's Word, in as complete, and as applicable a manner as possible. For that, and that alone-- I'll be forever grateful.
        What's an SP?
        As for the us-against-them mentality..... I think that's an inherent human issue. Definitely an ungodly one. One that I've had to deal with myself.
        It's easy to fall into a trap of us against them, for a two-fold reason.
        1- biblical disagreements over one's understanding of Truth.
        2- human nature.
        God is real. He can be known. You only cheat yourself by giving what you call reasons, and are nothing more than excuses. There's an old saying:
        an excuse is nothing more than a skin of reason, over a skeleton of lies.

        Comment


        • #5
          Wow... apparently I exceeded the limit. I haven't done that in a long time.

          Here's the last segment of my post.

          Jesus told us to love each other for a very basic reason--- we have a tendency to not.
          I can tell you this.
          Catholics in my wife's family think my wife and I are going to hell.
          Methodists in my family think I'm a Jesus Freak, and don't even read the bible anymore. One family member is so far out into conspiracy theories, and yet attends church every sunday, that I am constantly scratching my head, trying to figure out how to interact with him. And he and his wife have had a major impact on my life when I was a teen. It was probably their engagement with me that kept me from going too far out into the world.

          Baptists think everyone who's not a baptist is going to hell.
          As do pentecostals.
          The snake handlers think if you don't handle snakes, you're not a real Jesus follower. As do many who speak with tongues.
          This is a fundamental problem with human beings. NOT CC.
          And if you're unaware of this--- then you're apparently quite young, and inexperienced. In which case--- no worries, you'll get there soon enough.

          Each of these items are why we're told in Hebrews 12, Keep your eyes on Jesus, who is the author and finisher of our faith.
          I can assure you Mark.
          There are tens of millions of reasons to get pissed off at churches.
          There are a handful of reason to follow Jesus.
          Simply put-- the gospel.
          I hope you decide to follow Jesus. You won't be disappointed. Challenged? Absolutely! Disappointed? Not in the way which matters most.
          God is real. He can be known. You only cheat yourself by giving what you call reasons, and are nothing more than excuses. There's an old saying:
          an excuse is nothing more than a skin of reason, over a skeleton of lies.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by SteveB View Post
            Wow... apparently I exceeded the limit. I haven't done that in a long time.

            Here's the last segment of my post.

            Jesus told us to love each other for a very basic reason--- we have a tendency to not.
            I can tell you this.
            Catholics in my wife's family think my wife and I are going to hell.
            Methodists in my family think I'm a Jesus Freak, and don't even read the bible anymore. One family member is so far out into conspiracy theories, and yet attends church every sunday, that I am constantly scratching my head, trying to figure out how to interact with him. And he and his wife have had a major impact on my life when I was a teen. It was probably their engagement with me that kept me from going too far out into the world.

            Baptists think everyone who's not a baptist is going to hell.
            As do pentecostals.
            The snake handlers think if you don't handle snakes, you're not a real Jesus follower. As do many who speak with tongues.
            This is a fundamental problem with human beings. NOT CC.
            And if you're unaware of this--- then you're apparently quite young, and inexperienced. In which case--- no worries, you'll get there soon enough.

            Each of these items are why we're told in Hebrews 12, Keep your eyes on Jesus, who is the author and finisher of our faith.
            I can assure you Mark.
            There are tens of millions of reasons to get pissed off at churches.
            There are a handful of reason to follow Jesus.
            Simply put-- the gospel.
            I hope you decide to follow Jesus. You won't be disappointed. Challenged? Absolutely! Disappointed? Not in the way which matters most.

            Hi Steve...

            I did not read your whole post, way too long for me.

            My point is I have to be honest with my faith. Much of what I read is pretty much, doctrine aside, along the same things I heard from the Mormon leadership and family. It was that I am the guilty one and the sinner. It creates a guilt trip that is pretty hard to shake.

            I know Mormons that are is such bondage becasue the are members by guilt...I will never fall into that trap again.

            Grace is good, and God knows my heart on this subject and I will stand before Him, and my issues with CC will be the last thing am worried about.

            Cults get started becasue leadership is not held accountable. Liberalism and compromise sneaks in when leadership is not held accountable. Eldership is critical, but the body has to also keep it's eyes open, especially when hand picked by the leader. It is not like I run around the church gossiping and starting problems...far from it. My pastor knew how I felt, and in the end I voted with my feet.

            To somehow insinuate I do not follow Jesus is insulting, wrong, and way above your pay grade.

            take care
            markk
            But there has been a great difficulty in getting anything into the heads of this generation. It has been like splitting hemlock knots with a corn-dodger for a wedge, and a pumpkin for a beetle. Even the Saints are slow to understand. Joseph Smith...

            Comment


            • #7
              Steve,

              I read a little more of your post...

              A little back ground...I was saved at a CC, I went to CC bible college, I served and taught at CC for 15 years plus, and I helped start two CC...mainly with a hammer and nails...I am in construction.

              On CC elder-ship, the way it was five years ago or so in most I new of, there is not a traditional elder-ship, a teaching elder-ship...but 4 or 5 business men hand chosen by the pastor, and it is common that other CC pastors serve on the board, or maybe they don't even attend that CC. In my fellowship, "elders were users and did not sit in on church business. One board member was a senior pastor of another CC, and one lived in another state, and the other two were business men. All good men, but besides the pastor they did not teach or have that gift. There was no financial accountability to the body either.

              Point being I understand CC very well.

              But there has been a great difficulty in getting anything into the heads of this generation. It has been like splitting hemlock knots with a corn-dodger for a wedge, and a pumpkin for a beetle. Even the Saints are slow to understand. Joseph Smith...

              Comment


              • #8
                Hi Mark.
                I'm a tinner, by trade, now. I'd served a union apprenticeship, and worked the trade in So. Cal., until the economy tanked in 1991. I bounced around non-union, until we moved to where I live now, in 1993. I tried getting back into the union, but no work, and too thick a set of politics.

                I'm in the beginning of leaving the trade, again, and going to government employment.

                I don't do church, because I like it. I've found those "sinners" Jesus came to save can be a fairly whacked group of people, who sometimes do good. Myself included. I know I've pissed off more than my fair share of fellow Jesus followers over the past 41 years. And sometimes, it was deliberate.

                I do church because Jesus commanded me to engage, and follow him, loving those with whom I have only Jesus in common.

                Thankfully, he's placed enough people in there, that I actually have a few people with whom I have more in common.
                It sounds to me that you've had some painful, or at least irritating experiences.
                Welcome to the human race.
                I'll refer back to my lengthy post. My descriptions, and references are not because I'm naive, or lack experience.
                I have far more experience than I like to be aware of. All of it has taught me obedience--- Hebrews 5:6-9.
                We learn obedience because of the things we suffer.

                As far as CC goes, I don't think anyone has to attend a CC. I do however think that, according to biblical instruction--- we all have to attend some church, somewhere.
                And LDS/WTS/JW are not among them.


                I've selected CC because I cannot stand religion--- as people like to describe it today.
                I came to Jesus. I did not come to church to be a religious person.
                They teach the bible, and they do a pretty good job of doing it diligently, and repeatedly.

                Do not let the bad taste in your mouth ruin your faith in Christ. Hebrews 12. Also, beware of a root of bitterness. If it has taken root--- talk to God about it. Fast! Life has enough griefs, and heartaches without that one destroying us.

                Remember--- Jesus said that if we WANT To be his followers, we MUST deny ourselves daily, take up our cross and follow him. In one place he even said-- if you do not deny yourselves daily, and take up your cross, you CANNOT be my follower.

                to me, the whole--- deny yourself daily-- thing is about deny how we see things, and keeping our attention/thinking focused on Jesus. Learning to see as God sees, and taking on God's Perspective on life.

                Hope to meet you in eternity.
                Till then.
                God is real. He can be known. You only cheat yourself by giving what you call reasons, and are nothing more than excuses. There's an old saying:
                an excuse is nothing more than a skin of reason, over a skeleton of lies.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by SteveB View Post
                  Hi Mark.
                  I'm a tinner, by trade, now. I'd served a union apprenticeship, and worked the trade in So. Cal., until the economy tanked in 1991. I bounced around non-union, until we moved to where I live now, in 1993. I tried getting back into the union, but no work, and too thick a set of politics.

                  I'm in the beginning of leaving the trade, again, and going to government employment.

                  I don't do church, because I like it. I've found those "sinners" Jesus came to save can be a fairly whacked group of people, who sometimes do good. Myself included. I know I've pissed off more than my fair share of fellow Jesus followers over the past 41 years. And sometimes, it was deliberate.

                  I do church because Jesus commanded me to engage, and follow him, loving those with whom I have only Jesus in common.

                  Thankfully, he's placed enough people in there, that I actually have a few people with whom I have more in common.
                  It sounds to me that you've had some painful, or at least irritating experiences.
                  Welcome to the human race.
                  I'll refer back to my lengthy post. My descriptions, and references are not because I'm naive, or lack experience.
                  I have far more experience than I like to be aware of. All of it has taught me obedience--- Hebrews 5:6-9.
                  We learn obedience because of the things we suffer.

                  As far as CC goes, I don't think anyone has to attend a CC. I do however think that, according to biblical instruction--- we all have to attend some church, somewhere.
                  And LDS/WTS/JW are not among them.


                  I've selected CC because I cannot stand religion--- as people like to describe it today.
                  I came to Jesus. I did not come to church to be a religious person.
                  They teach the bible, and they do a pretty good job of doing it diligently, and repeatedly.

                  Do not let the bad taste in your mouth ruin your faith in Christ. Hebrews 12. Also, beware of a root of bitterness. If it has taken root--- talk to God about it. Fast! Life has enough griefs, and heartaches without that one destroying us.

                  Remember--- Jesus said that if we WANT To be his followers, we MUST deny ourselves daily, take up our cross and follow him. In one place he even said-- if you do not deny yourselves daily, and take up your cross, you CANNOT be my follower.

                  to me, the whole--- deny yourself daily-- thing is about deny how we see things, and keeping our attention/thinking focused on Jesus. Learning to see as God sees, and taking on God's Perspective on life.

                  Hope to meet you in eternity.
                  Till then.
                  Who said it ruined my faith or put a bad taste in my mouth? You have no idea what you are even talking about.
                  But there has been a great difficulty in getting anything into the heads of this generation. It has been like splitting hemlock knots with a corn-dodger for a wedge, and a pumpkin for a beetle. Even the Saints are slow to understand. Joseph Smith...

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Markk View Post
                    In the Mormonism forum, a thread was started by a active LDS member about the definition of a cult. I being a ex-Mormon asked her to write down the things that bother her about the LDS church, history, and leadership as a exercise in and example of what a cult might be, by not being able to be honest with ourselves.

                    So to not be a hypocrite, these are some of the things that bother me about CC.
                    • It was co-founded by Lonnie Frisbee, and practicing homosexual and "party-er"
                    • The "cover up" and lack of taking responsibility for the truths about Lonnie.
                    • No real financial accountability between the leadership and the folks
                    • Too much senior pastor (SP) control
                    • No real biblical Elder-ship
                    • The current split and what is developing...mostly uncertainty and lack of leadership?
                    • The inability for Chuck Smith and other pastors to acknowledge CC is a denomination.
                    • The us against them attitude that is often developed between the (SP) ( staff to a degree) and the folks.
                    • Wife/s of the SP sometime steer the ship in regards to certain aspects of the fellowship...apart from elder-ship.

                    I am not saying that god is not using CC, or "sanctifying" it...CC is a great place to worship and fellowship...and grow in the Lord and I recommend it to anyone and everyone.

                    I am just being honest with my thoughts and feelings, and trying not to be a bigger hypocrite than I am. I was a Mormon for 34 years, and when I came out 26 years ago I told myself I would never, ever hide what I believe are uncomfortable truths from myself.

                    I posted this here in that I assume Mormons on the Mormon forum will ask me to do what I asked them to do.
                    A poster on lds forum sent me to cc a few years ago. I didnít find it better or worse than lds.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by e v e View Post

                      A poster on lds forum sent me to cc a few years ago. I didn’t find it better or worse than lds.
                      It is much better in theology, it is a true Christian Church in those regards...in regards to transparency close to LDS church goverment. When a decision has been made, all the thinking has been done.
                      But there has been a great difficulty in getting anything into the heads of this generation. It has been like splitting hemlock knots with a corn-dodger for a wedge, and a pumpkin for a beetle. Even the Saints are slow to understand. Joseph Smith...

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Markk View Post

                        It is much better in theology, it is a true Christian Church in those regards...in regards to transparency close to LDS church goverment. When a decision has been made, all the thinking has been done.
                        I donít see it as any better. A canon thinking uncharitable human sphere.

                        Though they are as off as lds at at least lds are kind mostly.

                        sad.

                        after seeing the attacks on lds any poor confused soul watching would go lds. Not that that would be better.

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