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What the CoC gets right (for the most part)...

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  • EOCTruth
    started a topic What the CoC gets right (for the most part)...

    What the CoC gets right (for the most part)...

    1.) Immersion baptism in the name of Jesus Christ (by His authority) INTO the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit -- this is as close to the truth we find in Holy Scripture as the CoC comes. Looking back at the Apostolic tradition of the ancient unified church, we actually find a TRINE immersion into the name of the Trinity (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) that was given to repentant disciples who had heard and believed the Gospel of Christ and confessed Jesus as the Son of the living God. All of these elements exist at various points in Holy Scripture (sort of like piecing together a puzzle) and are confirmed by the actual PRACTICE of the ancient unified church (the pre-schismatic churches we find throughout the Middle East, North Africa, the Mediterranean and yes.. even Rome).

    Repentance wasn't just a general declaration of repentance but a life confession before the church ("Confess your sins one to another").

    2.) "Laying by in store as we have prospered" -- pretty much nails it

    3.) "Singing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs" -- would help if they actually sang the Psalms, but pretty close

    4.) acapella singing -- we don't find any authorization for the use of instruments in the NT

    That's pretty much it. In everything else, the CoC falls far short of the Apostolic tradition we find in the ancient unified church. Just a few of the things they miss (roughly in order of importance):

    1.) Confessing sins one to another. -- though some conservative CoCs still practice confessing sins before the entire congregation (which is actually based on the earliest practices), most completely ignore ongoing confession of sins.

    2.) Withholding baptism from infants and little children: -- though they're innocent, they still need a spiritual family and salvation IN Christ. Jesus clearly said, "Except a man be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.". He also forbade NOT letting the children come to Him. That, and we don't see some miraculous change in the definition of "household" between covenants.

    3.) Liturgy -- forget "Divine Liturgy".. the CoC isn't even a liturgical church

    4.) symbolic communion -- Jesus didn't say, "Take these crackers and eat, for they symbolize my body" & "Take this Welch's grape juice and drink, for it represents my blood".

    5.) deacons, pastors & elders only -- not only do we clearly see Bishops in Holy Scripture but also in the earliest Apostolic church (while the Apostles were still alive)

    6.) Other things we find in Holy Scripture rightly divided are the ever-virginity of Mary, the mother of God (unless you'd like to deny Christ divinity), intercessory prayer to departed saints (unless you believe that the prayers of the righteous are inefficacious, and that departed saints are not alive with Christ [see Paul and Revelations]), Apostolic succession via the laying on of hands by the presbytery (the ongoing assurance of a truly Apostolic church - ordination of Deacons, Presbyters and Bishops), anointing the sick with oil, the historical & scriptural use of icons (including their veneration), the historical and scriptural use of vestments and incense, the celebration of feasts (especially Pascha -- the Passover in a Christian context, later called "Easter"), fasting (none of these things are performed in a ritualistic or legalistic sense, by the way -- they're all Godly-prescribed medicine for the ongoing healing of our heart, soul, and mind) -- and the list goes on.

    By incorporating so many unscriptural and untraditional elements (according to Apostolic tradition), the CoC is sort of a legalistic nest of perpetual baby Christians (at best) that all but halts spiritual growth practically from day one by denying SO many promises of God in and through Christ. The rest of the denominational world falls into a similar circumstance.

    Everything in the Western churches (Roman Catholic and Protestant churches, combined) that's wrong today all starts with Rome and her initial departure from the Apostolic tradition starting as early as the 400s. All of the Protestant/Restoration churches are reformed (or "restored") from the errors of the Latin church. Thankfully, the fullness of the Apostolic tradition has been preserved throughout the Eastern churches. I would encourage anyone who is looking for right worship (the actual meaning of "Orthodox") to seek out an Apostolic Eastern church and just ask questions -- or observe a Liturgy, and then ask questions. May God keep and bless us all.

  • TomL
    replied
    Originally posted by EOCTruth View Post
    1.) Immersion baptism in the name of Jesus Christ (by His authority) INTO the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit -- this is as close to the truth we find in Holy Scripture as the CoC comes. Looking back at the Apostolic tradition of the ancient unified church, we actually find a TRINE immersion into the name of the Trinity (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) that was given to repentant disciples who had heard and believed the Gospel of Christ and confessed Jesus as the Son of the living God. All of these elements exist at various points in Holy Scripture (sort of like piecing together a puzzle) and are confirmed by the actual PRACTICE of the ancient unified church (the pre-schismatic churches we find throughout the Middle East, North Africa, the Mediterranean and yes.. even Rome).

    .
    Tom asks

    Care to show where the Greek new testament make a distinction between in the name of Christ and into the name
    of the Son and of the Holy Spirit

    Acts 19:5 (KJV)
    5 When they heard this, they were baptized in (eis) the name of the Lord Jesus.

    Matthew 28:19 (KJV)
    19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in (eis) the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

    Also where in the bible is the command to baptize shown as or defined as involving three submersions and emersions.

    On what basis could the first baptized/baptizers understand that is what was required of them







    Leave a comment:


  • Theo Book
    replied
    Originally posted by Seabass View Post
    1)
    there is no example of infants being water baptized in the NT. Water baptism is for the remission of sins and infants do not have sin for they are born innocent without sin. Original sin is a false concept created by man that Christ nor His Apostles ever taught. The first birth is when one is born physically, One then can be "born AGAIN" spiritually when one is water baptized and has his sins washed away by the blood of Christ and becomes sinless just as an infant at birth. This is why Jesus was use the phrase "born AGAIN" in John 3 about the new birth.

    2)
    there is no clergy or laity within Christ's church, Gal 3:28...all are one in Christ Jesus, all are 'fellow servants" and bothers, Col 4:7.

    3)
    'pastor', 'bishop' and 'elder' are different words that describe one office. Christ's church does have the two offices of: 1) elders/pastors/bishops and 2) deacons.

    4)

    Matt 26:26 "And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body."
    Matt 26:27 "And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;"
    Matt 26:28 "For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins."
    Matt 26:29 "But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom."

    In verse 27 Jesus took the cup and said the contents of the cup was "my blood" in verse 28, Yet in verse 29 Jesus calls the content of the cup "fruit of the vine". Therefore the content of the cup never changed for it was always fruit of the vine and was symbolically said to be Christ's blood.

    The Lord's Supper is a memorial, a time to REMEMBER Christ implying that Christ would not actually, literally be present.
    Very Good! More to follow -

    The communion is to remind us of His death. We are to remember the Lord's death,. till he come:

    I Cor 11:23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: 24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. 5 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. 26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

    Leave a comment:


  • Theo Book
    replied
    Originally posted by EOCTruth View Post
    1.) Immersion baptism in the name of Jesus Christ (by His authority) INTO the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit -- this is as close to the truth we find in Holy Scripture as the CoC comes. Looking back at the Apostolic tradition of the ancient unified church, we actually find a TRINE immersion into the name of the Trinity (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) that was given to repentant disciples who had heard and believed the Gospel of Christ and confessed Jesus as the Son of the living God. All of these elements exist at various points in Holy Scripture (sort of like piecing together a puzzle) and are confirmed by the actual PRACTICE of the ancient unified church (the pre-schismatic churches we find throughout the Middle East, North Africa, the Mediterranean and yes.. even Rome).
    Care to explain why bible only shows examples of "Baptized into Christ" instead of Father, Son,Holy Spirit trinity?

    Originally posted by EOCTruth View Post
    Repentance wasn't just a general declaration of repentance but a life confession before the church ("Confess your sins one to another").
    Where do you find "before the church" in the Greek text? "To ONE ANOTHER" may be in the home, on the golf course, in the supermarket, etc. Nothing is said about "en ecclesia."(in congregation)

    Originally posted by EOCTruth View Post
    2.) "Laying by in store as we have prospered" -- pretty much nails it
    But it is not done "par eautw" which is a reference (I Cor 16:1-2) to "At Home" or "By one's self." It is not a reference to a public collection. It can even be stored in a bank in a private account. The whole issue was related to a promise made by Paul that he and others of their choice, would come at some point in time, and gather there appointed treasure to the saints in Jerusalem. The problem was begun when the first Gospel sermon was preached in Jerusalem, and people came from all over the world to the annual sacrifices in Jerusalem at the temple.

    When they heard the noise and saw the miracles of Acts 2, and some people stayed to hear more, there had been no preparation for them as regards food, sustenance of every need; so the promises were made, and Paul went from house to house at the agreed time, and carried their offering to the elders at Jerusalem.

    One year later, Paul sent this letter to the church at Corinth;
    2 Corinthians 8:10 And herein I give my advice: for this is expedient for you, who have begun before, not only to do, but also to be forward a year ago.11 Now therefore perform the doing of it; that as there was a readiness to will, so there may be a performance also out of that which ye have.12 For if there be first a willing mind, it is accepted according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath not.13 For I mean not that other men be eased, and ye burdened:14 But by an equality, that now at this time your abundance may be a supply for their want, that their abundance also may be a supply for your want: that there may be equality:

    Originally posted by EOCTruth View Post
    3.) "Singing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs" -- would help if they actually sang the Psalms, but pretty close
    "Each of you hath a Palm"(I Cor 14:26) shows that they were singing NEW testament church psalms.

    Originally posted by EOCTruth View Post
    4.) acapella singing -- we don't find any authorization for the use of instruments in the NT
    Well said.

    Originally posted by EOCTruth View Post
    That's pretty much it. In everything else, the CoC falls far short of the Apostolic tradition we find in the ancient unified church. Just a few of the things they miss (roughly in order of importance):

    1.) Confessing sins one to another. -- though some conservative CoCs still practice confessing sins before the entire congregation (which is actually based on the earliest practices), most completely ignore ongoing confession of sins.

    2.) Withholding baptism from infants and little children: -- though they're innocent, they still need a spiritual family and salvation IN Christ. Jesus clearly said, "Except a man be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.". He also forbade NOT letting the children come to Him. That, and we don't see some miraculous change in the definition of "household" between covenants.
    I like what I am reading. So I will share with you, the earliest scripture of which I know, that has sprinkling, pouring, and immersion in one verse; showing that "Sprinkling" and "pouring" are not Baptism. The text is found at Leviticus 14:15-16.

    Lev 14:15 And the priest shall take some of the log of oil, and [1](epixew)pour it into the palm of his own left hand:

    16 And the priest shall [2](bapsei)dip his right finger in the oil that is in his left hand, and shall [3](rainw)sprinkle of the oil with his finger seven times before the LORD:

    Here is how it breaks down
    [1](epixew)pour [evpiceei/ evpice,w vifa3s]
    epixeei is the indicative future active 3rd person singular form of the verb epixew = to pour

    [2](bapsei)dip[ba,yei ba,ptw vifa3s]
    bapsei is the indicative future active 3rd person singular form of the verb baptw = immerse; baptize

    [3](rainw)sprinkle[r`anei/ r`ai,nw vifa3s]
    ranei is the indicative future active 3rd person singular form of the verb rainw = to sprinkle.

    As God freely gave it to me, so I freely share it with you because it is not mine to give.

    Originally posted by EOCTruth View Post
    3.) Liturgy -- forget "Divine Liturgy".. the CoC isn't even a liturgical church
    Repetive praying by rote was discouraged by Jesus Himself. And doctrines and creeds of men were forbidden.

    [QUOTE=EOCTruth;n5478161]
    4.) symbolic communion -- Jesus didn't say, "Take these crackers and eat, for they symbolize my body" & "Take this Welch's grape juice and drink, for it represents my blood".[quote]

    Well said! and look at Romans 16:5 for ("Church in the home")

    Originally posted by EOCTruth View Post
    5.) deacons, pastors & elders only -- not only do we clearly see Bishops in Holy Scripture but also in the earliest Apostolic church (while the Apostles were still alive)
    Close - left out "Deaconess" = those sisters who serve so well
    Luke 10:40 But Martha was cumbered about much [1][diakonian]serving, and came to him, and said, Lord, dost thou not care that my sister hath left me to [2][diakonein]serve alone? bid her therefore that she help me.

    [1][[diakonian] is the accusative feminine singular form of the noun diakonia =
    ministry; service; contribution; support;

    [2][diakonein] is the present active form of the infinitive diakonew = serve; wait on; care for; provide for; serve as a deacon


    Romans 12:7 Or [1][diakoni,an]ministry, let us wait on our[2] [diakoni,a|]ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;

    [1]diakonian is the accusative feminine singular form of the noun diakoni

    [2]diakonia is the dative feminine singular form of the noun diakoni

    Originally posted by EOCTruth View Post
    6.) Other things we find in Holy Scripture rightly divided are the ever-virginity of Mary, the mother of God (unless you'd like to deny Christ divinity),
    That is being handled over on the Trinity board.

    The balance of the post is too long responding for one post. Maybe later.

    Leave a comment:


  • Seabass
    replied
    1)
    there is no example of infants being water baptized in the NT. Water baptism is for the remission of sins and infants do not have sin for they are born innocent without sin. Original sin is a false concept created by man that Christ nor His Apostles ever taught. The first birth is when one is born physically, One then can be "born AGAIN" spiritually when one is water baptized and has his sins washed away by the blood of Christ and becomes sinless just as an infant at birth. This is why Jesus was use the phrase "born AGAIN" in John 3 about the new birth.

    2)
    there is no clergy or laity within Christ's church, Gal 3:28...all are one in Christ Jesus, all are 'fellow servants" and bothers, Col 4:7.

    3)
    'pastor', 'bishop' and 'elder' are different words that describe one office. Christ's church does have the two offices of: 1) elders/pastors/bishops and 2) deacons.

    4)

    Matt 26:26 "And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body."
    Matt 26:27 "And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;"
    Matt 26:28 "For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins."
    Matt 26:29 "But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom."

    In verse 27 Jesus took the cup and said the contents of the cup was "my blood" in verse 28, Yet in verse 29 Jesus calls the content of the cup "fruit of the vine". Therefore the content of the cup never changed for it was always fruit of the vine and was symbolically said to be Christ's blood.

    The Lord's Supper is a memorial, a time to REMEMBER Christ implying that Christ would not actually, literally be present.

    Leave a comment:


  • EOCTruth
    replied
    Originally posted by EOCTruth View Post
    1.) Immersion baptism in the name of Jesus Christ (by His authority) INTO the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit -- this is as close to the truth we find in Holy Scripture as the CoC comes. Looking back at the Apostolic tradition of the ancient unified church, we actually find a TRINE immersion into the name of the Trinity (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) that was given to repentant disciples who had heard and believed the Gospel of Christ and confessed Jesus as the Son of the living God. All of these elements exist at various points in Holy Scripture (sort of like piecing together a puzzle) and are confirmed by the actual PRACTICE of the ancient unified church (the pre-schismatic churches we find throughout the Middle East, North Africa, the Mediterranean and yes.. even Rome).

    Repentance wasn't just a general declaration of repentance but a life confession before the church ("Confess your sins one to another").
    ADDENDUM: ..and that baptism is UNTO the remission of sins.

    Leave a comment:

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