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Baptismal mode. What say the Prophets

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  • Baptismal mode. What say the Prophets

    Ezekiel 36:24-27 (KJV)
    24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
    25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
    26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
    27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

    Isaiah 44:2-4 (KJV)
    2 Thus saith the LORD that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, which will help thee; Fear not, O Jacob, my servant; and thou, Jesurun, whom I have chosen.
    3 For I will pour water upon him that is thirsty, and floods upon the dry ground: I will pour my spirit upon thy seed, and my blessing upon thine offspring:
    4 And they shall spring up as among the grass, as willows by the water courses.



    Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

  • #2
    Originally posted by TomL View Post
    Ezekiel 36:24-27 (KJV)
    24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
    25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
    26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
    27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

    Isaiah 44:2-4 (KJV)
    2 Thus saith the LORD that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, which will help thee; Fear not, O Jacob, my servant; and thou, Jesurun, whom I have chosen.
    3 For I will pour water upon him that is thirsty, and floods upon the dry ground: I will pour my spirit upon thy seed, and my blessing upon thine offspring:
    4 And they shall spring up as among the grass, as willows by the water courses.


    Maybe I'm totally blind, but I don't see any reference or any connection here to water baptism. PLUS, all of these passages relate to the Nation Israel, not to all men, and certainly not to the New Testament believer! If this is a call for help, then please know that only Jesus can save you. Water baptism has never saved anyone. "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ shall be saved." Romans 10:13
    Salvation: You don't get it by anything you do. And, you can't lose it by anything you fail to do.

    Comment


    • #3
      gopher27, since this is a Church of Christ forum the posts here, especially the opening posts, are directed toward traditional Church of Christ doctrine. Please keep in mind that the primary founder of the group that became the Churches of Christ, Alexander Campbell, was the editor of a New Testament translation called The Living Oracles, with all references to baptism - water, spiritual or otherwise - changed to Immersion, with an intent to sway the New Testament reader toward a belief that every reference to "baptism" was a reference to full body immersion into water.
      Law makes a demand; Grace makes a provision.

      Grace terrifies legalists.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by gopher27 View Post

        Maybe I'm totally blind, but I don't see any reference or any connection here to water baptism. PLUS, all of these passages relate to the Nation Israel, not to all men, and certainly not to the New Testament believer! If this is a call for help, then please know that only Jesus can save you. Water baptism has never saved anyone. "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ shall be saved." Romans 10:13
        I agree with everything here. I would just point out that calling upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation happens in connection with baptism. (see Acts 22:16).
        greatdivide46
        By his breath the heavens gained their beauty; His hand pierced the fleeing serpent. -- (Job 26:13).

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by greatdivide46 View Post

          I agree with everything here. I would just point out that calling upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation happens in connection with baptism. (see Acts 22:16).
          Thank you for clarifying your doctrinal position. I was only trying to help by separating "works" (water baptism) from saving faith in Christ. I pray that your eyes may be opened to see this also.
          Salvation: You don't get it by anything you do. And, you can't lose it by anything you fail to do.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by gopher27 View Post

            Thank you for clarifying your doctrinal position. I was only trying to help by separating "works" (water baptism) from saving faith in Christ. I pray that your eyes may be opened to see this also.
            I agree that works don't play a part in salvation. However, I don't see baptism as work any more than I see faith or repentance or calling on the name of the Lord as works.
            greatdivide46
            By his breath the heavens gained their beauty; His hand pierced the fleeing serpent. -- (Job 26:13).

            Comment


            • #7
              This "salvation is not of works" doctrine was created in misinterpretation of the Bible.

              This all started with Paul saying "the works of the O.T. Law does not save"....not water baptism.

              Think about it.

              Anti baptismal advocates duped the masses.

              How clever.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by gopher27 View Post
                Maybe I'm totally blind, but I don't see any reference or any connection here to water baptism.
                That's because there isn't any.

                PLUS, all of these passages relate to the Nation Israel, not to all men, and certainly not to the New Testament believer!
                Baptismal regenerationists (Church of Christ-Campbellite, Catholic, some Protestant high churches, etc.) will grab at ANY straw to prove their heresy - one of the more popular ones is John 3:5 , "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God". which has nothing to do with water baptism either.

                Water baptism has never saved anyone. "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ shall be saved." Romans 10:13
                Absolutely correct -

                The question, however remains: WHY ARE CHRISTIANS TOLD TO BE BAPTIZED IN WATER AFTER THEY'VE BEEN SAVED BY FAITH???

                The Baptist folks (and many other evangelicals) see it as an "ORDINANCE" - i.e. "Bible says to do it, so we do it".

                That's the only reason I did it, for sure. Not because it was a "Sacrament" or anything like that, but simply because the Baptist church wanted to get me in their tank, and did. Nothing changed, Nothing was "Added", and the only effect was that I got wet.

                And, of course since a "Baptist Minister" had done the deed, I could join a Baptist Church - which wouldn't be possible if a Non-Baptist Minister had done the job.

                BUT - since I've been a Born Again - and "water baptised" Christian for 56 years, I've NEVER heard any meaningful Biblical explanation of: WHY SHOULD A CHRISTIAN BE BAPTISED AS A BELIEVER???

                SO I see that as an OPEN QUESTION that has never been answered - maybe it is just "Because we say so", but it seems there should be more to it.
                Last edited by Bob Carabbio; 01-15-19, 03:17 PM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  WOW! That's hard to believe. I cannot imagine your being an active member of any Church, having witnessed perhaps hundreds of baptisms in 56 years, no doubt heard numerous sermons on water baptism - and yet no one has ever explained it in a way for you to understand why we baptize. Incredible! Were you attending such shallow Churches that they didn't know either? I don't see this as possible. Surely in all these decades you have heard someone explain water baptism as a picture of the death, burial, and resurrection. Surely they explained that by water baptism we are making a public declaration of our faith in the risen Christ and our identification with Him in this way. Surely someone explained how water baptism pictures our own death to the old way of life and being raised in the likeness of His resurrection as our being raised to walk in newness of life. Surely.....
                  Salvation: You don't get it by anything you do. And, you can't lose it by anything you fail to do.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    WOW! That's hard to believe. I cannot imagine your being an active member of any Church, having witnessed perhaps hundreds of baptisms in 56 years, no doubt heard numerous sermons on water baptism - and yet no one has ever explained it in a way for you to understand why we baptize. Incredible! Were you attending such shallow Churches that they didn't know either? I don't see this as possible. Surely in all these decades you have heard someone explain water baptism as a picture of the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. Surely they explained that by water baptism we are making a public declaration of our faith in the risen Christ and our identification with Him in this way. Surely someone explained how water baptism pictures our own death to the old way of life and being raised in the likeness of His resurrection as our being raised to walk in newness of life. Surely.....
                    Salvation: You don't get it by anything you do. And, you can't lose it by anything you fail to do.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Bob Carabbio View Post

                      That's because there isn't any.



                      Baptismal regenerationists (Church of Christ-Campbellite, Catholic, some Protestant high churches, etc.) will grab at ANY straw to prove their heresy - one of the more popular ones is John 3:5 , "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God". which has nothing to do with water baptism either.



                      Absolutely correct -

                      The question, however remains: WHY ARE CHRISTIANS TOLD TO BE BAPTIZED IN WATER AFTER THEY'VE BEEN SAVED BY FAITH???

                      The Baptist folks (and many other evangelicals) see it as an "ORDINANCE" - i.e. "Bible says to do it, so we do it".

                      That's the only reason I did it, for sure. Not because it was a "Sacrament" or anything like that, but simply because the Baptist church wanted to get me in their tank, and did. Nothing changed, Nothing was "Added", and the only effect was that I got wet.

                      And, of course since a "Baptist Minister" had done the deed, I could join a Baptist Church - which wouldn't be possible if a Non-Baptist Minister had done the job.

                      BUT - since I've been a Born Again - and "water baptised" Christian for 56 years, I've NEVER heard any meaningful Biblical explanation of: WHY SHOULD A CHRISTIAN BE BAPTISED AS A BELIEVER???

                      SO I see that as an OPEN QUESTION that has never been answered - maybe it is just "Because we say so", but it seems there should be more to it.
                      When were the folks in Acts 2 that Peter called murderers saved?

                      Before verse 38 or after?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Truther View Post

                        When were the folks in Acts 2 that Peter called murderers saved?

                        Before verse 38 or after?
                        V41, of course - but only the ones that "Gladly RECEIVED his word", of course. Those who didn't - didn't.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Bob Carabbio View Post

                          V41, of course - but only the ones that "Gladly RECEIVED his word", of course. Those who didn't - didn't.
                          So, they were saved without repenting, being baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of their sins, and also saved without receiving the promise of the Holy Ghost per Acts 2:38?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Truther View Post

                            So, they were saved without repenting, being baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of their sins, and also saved without receiving the promise of the Holy Ghost per Acts 2:38?
                            I didn't say that, of course. YOU DID, reading your own foolishness into the Biblical word. There's a lot included in "Receiving the Word with gladness" that's not specifically addressed in v41, but in case you didn't realize it, the Bible has more than ONE verse.

                            Baptism, of course, has nothing to do with Salvation, which is BY FAITH, and repentance under conviction of SIN by the Holy Spirit is a willful act on the part of the seeker.

                            BUT - go ahead and "spin it" any way you see fit.

                            Next question??

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Bob Carabbio View Post

                              I didn't say that, of course. YOU DID, reading your own foolishness into the Biblical word. There's a lot included in "Receiving the Word with gladness" that's not specifically addressed in v41, but in case you didn't realize it, the Bible has more than ONE verse.

                              Baptism, of course, has nothing to do with Salvation, which is BY FAITH, and repentance under conviction of SIN by the Holy Spirit is a willful act on the part of the seeker.

                              BUT - go ahead and "spin it" any way you see fit.

                              Next question??
                              Okay. So baptism for the remission of sins per Acts 2:38 has nothing to do with salvation?

                              Can a person be saved without remission of sins?

                              Comment

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