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Lutheran statement of belief

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  • Lutheran statement of belief

    ‘Brief Statement of the Doctrinal Position of the Missouri Synod’--https://www.lcms.org/about/beliefs/doctrine/brief-statement-of-lcms-doctrinal-position

    "On the basis of these clear statements of the Holy Scriptures we reject every kind of synergism, that is, the doctrine that conversion is wrought not by the grace and power of God alone, but in part also by the co-operation of man himself, by man's right conduct, his right attitude,"



    Could anyone explain why the Lutherans claim they reject any kind of synergism--and the scriptures testifying to the fact God gives His grace unto life only to those who obey Him?

    2 Thessalonians 1:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
    7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
    8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
    9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;


    The scriptures connect our obedience to God's grace:

    Romans 2:5-11---King James Version (KJV)
    5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
    6Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
    7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
    8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
    9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
    10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
    11 For there is no respect of persons with God.



  • #2
    Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    ‘Brief Statement of the Doctrinal Position of the Missouri Synod’--https://www.lcms.org/about/beliefs/doctrine/brief-statement-of-lcms-doctrinal-position

    "On the basis of these clear statements of the Holy Scriptures we reject every kind of synergism, that is, the doctrine that conversion is wrought not by the grace and power of God alone, but in part also by the co-operation of man himself, by man's right conduct, his right attitude,"



    Could anyone explain why the Lutherans claim they reject any kind of synergism--and the scriptures testifying to the fact God gives His grace unto life only to those who obey Him?

    2 Thessalonians 1:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
    7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
    8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
    9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;


    The scriptures connect our obedience to God's grace:

    Romans 2:5-11---King James Version (KJV)
    5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
    6Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
    7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
    8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
    9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
    10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
    11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

    How do you know if you made it?

    How good do you have to be?

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post ‘Brief Statement of the Doctrinal Position of the Missouri Synod’--https://www.lcms.org/about/beliefs/doctrine/brief-statement-of-lcms-doctrinal-position

      "On the basis of these clear statements of the Holy Scriptures we reject every kind of synergism, that is, the doctrine that conversion is wrought not by the grace and power of God alone, but in part also by the co-operation of man himself, by man's right conduct, his right attitude,"


      Could anyone explain why the Lutherans claim they reject any kind of synergism--and the scriptures testifying to the fact God gives His grace unto life only to those who obey Him?

      2 Thessalonians 1:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
      7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
      8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
      9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;


      The scriptures connect our obedience to God's grace:

      Romans 2:5-11---King James Version (KJV)
      5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
      6Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
      7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
      8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
      9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
      10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
      11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
      Originally posted by CrowCross View Post
      How do you know if you made it? How good do you have to be?
      Could you explain for us how what I know--or how good anyone believes they must be--has to do with the fact the Biblical NT testifies God gives His grace to them who obey Him?

      Matthew 19:16-19--King James Version (KJV)
      16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
      17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
      18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
      19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.


      So--how do we fit that into faith alone theology?

      James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
      24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.


      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by CrowCross View Post

        How do you know if you made it?

        How good do you have to be?
        I looked at the link you posted because I wanted to read the entire section you quoted. I couldn't find it. What section was it in?
        Mark 9:24 Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

        “Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has; it never comes to the aid of spiritual things,
        but more frequently than not struggles against the divine Word, treating with contempt all that emanates from God.” ― Martin Luther


        Muretus "Call no man worthless for whom Christ died!"

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Thekla View Post

          I looked at the link you posted because I wanted to read the entire section you quoted. I couldn't find it. What section was it in?
          Page four, paragraph 2
          Test all things and praise God from whom all blessings flow!

          Peace,
          BJ -Bear
          VDMA (1 Peter 1:25)
          WELS

          Comment


          • #6
            Hi dberrie2000,

            Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post
            ‘Brief Statement of the Doctrinal Position of the Missouri Synod’--https://www.lcms.org/about/beliefs/doctrine/brief-statement-of-lcms-doctrinal-position

            "On the basis of these clear statements of the Holy Scriptures we reject every kind of synergism, that is, the doctrine that conversion is wrought not by the grace and power of God alone, but in part also by the co-operation of man himself, by man's right conduct, his right attitude,"

            Could anyone explain why the Lutherans claim they reject any kind of synergism--and the scriptures testifying to the fact God gives His grace unto life only to those who obey Him?
            The simple straightforward answer is that you are once again misinterpreting Scripture. The evidence in simple verifiable terms is that, Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." John 14:6 KJV A person's will, work, and obedience are not Christ, therefore, a person's will, work, and obedience are not the way, the truth, and the life and everyone comes to the Father through them. This simple truth is also demonstrated by Scripture not using the term synergism in any form with regard to man effecting his own salvation through his cooperation, right conduct, and right attitude.
            Test all things and praise God from whom all blessings flow!

            Peace,
            BJ -Bear
            VDMA (1 Peter 1:25)
            WELS

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by BJ BEAR View Post
              Hi dberrie2000,This simple truth is also demonstrated by Scripture not using the term synergism in any form with regard to man effecting his own salvation through his cooperation, right conduct, and right attitude.
              Hi BJ:

              Could you explain how man's actions are not related to his personal salvation--and the scriptural testimony all men are judged according to works--after death--and that for life or damnation?

              Was it not the Way, the Truth, and the Life--which testified to this?

              John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
              28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
              29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

              Matthew 16:27--King James Version (KJV)

              27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.


              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post

                Hi BJ:

                Could you explain how man's actions are not related to his personal salvation--and the scriptural testimony all men are judged according to works--after death--and that for life or damnation?

                Was it not the Way, the Truth, and the Life--which testified to this?

                John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
                28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
                29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

                Matthew 16:27--King James Version (KJV)

                27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

                As to the question why not all men are converted and saved, seeing that God's grace is universal and all men are equally and utterly corrupt, we confess that we cannot answer it. From Scripture we know only this: A man owes his conversion and salvation, not to any lesser guilt or better conduct on his part, but solely to the grace of God. But any man's non-conversion is due to himself alone; it is the result of his obstinate resistance against the converting operation of the Holy Ghost. Hos. 13:9.

                I went to the sections below that one
                1. We reject as apostasy from the Christian religion not only the doctrine of the Unitarians, who promise the grace of God to men on the basis of their moral efforts; not only the gross work-doctrine of the *******, who expressly teach that good works are necessary to obtain justification; but also the doctrine of the synergists, who indeed use the terminology of the Christian Church and say that man is justified "by faith," "by faith alone," but again mix human works into the article of justification by ascribing to man a co-operation with God in the kindling of faith and thus stray into papistic territory.

                Of Good Works
                1. Before God only those works are good which are done for the glory of God and the good of man, according to the rule of divine Law. Such works, however, no man performs unless he first believes that God has forgiven him his sins and has given him eternal life by grace, for Christ's sake, without any works of his own, John 15:4, 5. We reject as a great folly the assertion, frequently made in our day, that works must be placed in the fore, and "faith in dogmas" — meaning the Gospel of Christ crucified for the sins of the world — must be relegated to the rear. Since good works never precede faith, but are always and in every instance the result of faith in the Gospel, it is evident that the only means by which we Christians can become rich in good works (and God would have us to be rich in good works, Titus 2:14) is unceasingly to remember the grace of God which we have received in Christ, Rom. 12:1; 2 Cor. 8:9. Hence we reject as unchristian and foolish any attempt to produce good works by the compulsion of the Law or through carnal motives.
                Mark 9:24 Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

                “Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has; it never comes to the aid of spiritual things,
                but more frequently than not struggles against the divine Word, treating with contempt all that emanates from God.” ― Martin Luther


                Muretus "Call no man worthless for whom Christ died!"

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post



                  Could you explain for us how what I know--or how good anyone believes they must be--has to do with the fact the Biblical NT testifies God gives His grace to them who obey Him?

                  Matthew 19:16-19--King James Version (KJV)
                  16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
                  17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
                  18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
                  19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.


                  So--how do we fit that into faith alone theology?

                  James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
                  24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

                  Oh well, I've failed already. I suppose I'm going to hell. No grace for me...how about you? Have you never bore a false witness? Have you ever been mad at a neighbor? Not honored mom and dad?

                  You say God gives His grace to those who don't do the above......Your theology ends up with no one receiving grace.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post

                    and the scriptural testimony all men are judged according to works--after death--and that for life or damnation?

                    I'll be judged by works, but fortunately not my works but rather the works Christ Jesus performed for me.

                    Did you also know there is two judgements? The White Throne and the Bema seat of Christ?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by CrowCross View Post
                      I'll be judged by works, but fortunately not my works but rather the works Christ Jesus performed for me.
                      Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)
                      27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post Could you explain for us how what I know--or how good anyone believes they must be--has to do with the fact the Biblical NT testifies God gives His grace to them who obey Him?

                        Matthew 19:16-19--King James Version (KJV)
                        16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
                        17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
                        18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
                        19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.


                        So--how do we fit that into faith alone theology?

                        James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
                        24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.


                        Originally posted by CrowCross View Post
                        Oh well, I've failed already. I suppose I'm going to hell. No grace for me...how about you? Have you never bore a false witness? Have you ever been mad at a neighbor? Not honored mom and dad?

                        You say God gives His grace to those who don't do the above......Your theology ends up with no one receiving grace.
                        How so? All here received of God's grace for their obedience:

                        Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
                        38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

                        1 John 1:7--King James Version (KJV)
                        7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

                        So--is your claim we can't repent--or we don't need to walk in the Light in order to receive of God's grace?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post

                          Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)
                          27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
                          Let me present this again.
                          Did you also know there is two judgements? The White Throne and the Bema seat of Christ?

                          The Whiye Throne is where those who are not saved will be judged. Christ Jesus took that judgement upon himself in my place.

                          The second judgement us called the Bema Seat. There saved believers will be judged and rewarded..or not rewarded...for what they did for Christ Jesus.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post
                            [/B]



                            How so? All here received of God's grace for their obedience:

                            Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
                            38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

                            You have to look at the word "for" in Acts 2:38. You interpret it to mean.....“in order to get.”....In the Greek as well as English there are several ways the word "for" or Greek "eis" can be translated.
                            You may be told to ...take two aspirin for your headache.....Do you take two aspirins "in order to get" a headache?

                            The word "for" can be translated basically 3 ways:
                            1) in order to be, become, get, have, keep, etc.
                            2) because of, as the result of
                            3) with regard to

                            So, which of the 3 do we use?

                            I know it's not number 1 above because many other portions of the bible mention salvation and leaves out water baptism. This leaves number 2 or 3.
                            Other usages of the word "for" in scripture can be shown to be understood as "because of".
                            For example Matt 3:11 says.....I baptize you with water for repentance, but after me will come One more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.
                            In this instance they were not baptized in order to get repentance but rather because of their repentance. The same understanding should apply to Acts 2:38.
                            ref: got answers.
                            Last edited by CrowCross; 10-14-17, 09:05 AM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post
                              [/B]



                              How so? All here received of God's grace for their obedience:


                              1 John 1:7--King James Version (KJV)
                              7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

                              So--is your claim we can't repent--or we don't need to walk in the Light in order to receive of God's grace?
                              What does "walk in the light" mean? I can think of several nuances of that term.

                              Comment

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