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Ephesians 2

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  • Originally posted by Bonnie View Post

    Grace and faith are two sides of the same coin, wouldn't you say, BJ? Further proof of what you wrote can be found here:



    Notice the bolded part....isn't it wonderful what we find in the Bible when we take ALL of it into consideration, and not bits and pieces?
    Yes,the gifts of God are best!
    Test all things and praise God from whom all blessings flow!

    Peace,
    BJ -Bear
    VDMA (1 Peter 1:25)
    WELS

    Comment


    • Originally posted by BJ BEAR View Post
      You are still misinterpreting the verse because it says by grace *through* faith are you saved, it is the gift of God. And what is excluded in this salvation by grace through faith is works, see verse nine above.
      If works are excluded from salvation--then you believe one is saved through dead faith:

      James 2:18-26--- King James Version (KJV)
      18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
      19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
      20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
      21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
      22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
      23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
      24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, andnot by faith only.
      25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
      26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

      Could you collate Paul's testimony here--with the idea works are excluded from God's grace?

      2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 ---King James Version (KJV)
      7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
      8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
      9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

      As some scholars now concede--when Paul used the term "works"--he was usually referring to certain rituals found under the Mosaic Law--not acts of obedience to God under the gospel:

      ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

      New Perspective on Paulóhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Perspective_on_Paul


      The new perspective on Paul represents a significant shift in the way some scholars, especial Protestant scholars, interpret the writings of the Apostle Paul.
      Paul, especially in his epistle to the Romans, advocates justification through faith in Jesus Christ over justification through works of the Law. In the historic Lutheran and Reformed perspective, known as sola fide, theologians understood Paul as arguing that Christians' good works would not factor into their salvation - only their faith would count. But according to the "new" perspective, Paul was questioning only observances such as circumcision, dietary laws, and Sabbath laws (these were the 'boundary markers that set the Jews apart from the other nations), not good works in general.










      Comment


      • Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post

        If works are excluded from salvation--then you believe one is saved through dead faith:

        James 2:18-26--- King James Version (KJV)
        18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
        19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
        20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
        21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
        22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
        23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
        24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, andnot by faith only.
        25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
        26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

        Could you collate Paul's testimony here--with the idea works are excluded from God's grace?

        2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 ---King James Version (KJV)
        7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
        8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
        9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

        As some scholars now concede--when Paul used the term "works"--he was usually referring to certain rituals found under the Mosaic Law--not acts of obedience to God under the gospel:

        ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

        New Perspective on Paulóhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Perspective_on_Paul


        The new perspective on Paul represents a significant shift in the way some scholars, especial Protestant scholars, interpret the writings of the Apostle Paul.
        Paul, especially in his epistle to the Romans, advocates justification through faith in Jesus Christ over justification through works of the Law. In the historic Lutheran and Reformed perspective, known as sola fide, theologians understood Paul as arguing that Christians' good works would not factor into their salvation - only their faith would count. But according to the "new" perspective, Paul was questioning only observances such as circumcision, dietary laws, and Sabbath laws (these were the 'boundary markers that set the Jews apart from the other nations), not good works in general.









        No, we don't. A living faith leads to doing good works. And HOW can a faith be dead IF a person is able to believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and God and Savior? Could a dead faith do that? Faith is a gift from God--does God give dead gifts?

        What did Jesus tell the woman in Luke 7:50? What did He say saved her?
        "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
        "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
        "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
        "The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."--anonymous
        "If Jesus isn't THE WAY, then there is nothing else."--Bob

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Bonnie View Post
          No, we don't. A living faith leads to doing good works.
          So--is it "living faith" before, or after the works occur?

          Comment


          • Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post

            If works are excluded from salvation--then you believe one is saved through dead faith:
            Nonsense, apparently you still don't distinguish between this life and the day of judgment for the living and the dead. In this life the saved by grace through faith are created in Christ Jesus to do good works. When this life ends for everyone and the judgment occurs then the saved, the justified by faith alone in the true Christ, when looking back on their lives will have the works which the Lord gave them to do.

            The justified do just things.
            Test all things and praise God from whom all blessings flow!

            Peace,
            BJ -Bear
            VDMA (1 Peter 1:25)
            WELS

            Comment


            • Originally posted by BJ BEAR View Post
              Nonsense, apparently you still don't distinguish between this life and the day of judgment for the living and the dead. In this life the saved by grace through faith are created in Christ Jesus to do good works. When this life ends for everyone and the judgment occurs then the saved, the justified by faith alone in the true Christ, when looking back on their lives will have the works which the Lord gave them to do.

              The justified do just things.
              There is no doubt the justified do just things.

              That won't absolve the Lutherans from a theology of a grace through a faith without works(dead faith).

              This will, IMO:

              Were they justified unto life, as a personal reception--apart from any works?

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Bonnie View Post No, we don't. A living faith leads to doing good works.
                Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post
                So--is it "living faith" before, or after the works occur?
                Bump for Bonnie

                Comment


                • Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post

                  There is no doubt the justified do just things.

                  That won't absolve the Lutherans from a theology of a grace through a faith without works(dead faith).

                  This will, IMO:

                  Were they justified unto life, as a personal reception--apart from any works?
                  Have you ever seen or heard Abbott and Costello's skit called Who Is On First? If you have then you recognize what can happen when people get their categories mixed up and won't reconsider their perspective.

                  Your post is like the skit Who Is On First in that the categories you are using are mixed up and despite correction you insist on reasserting a confusion of categories. In other words, you keep trying to pit a negative characterization of the expression of the faith of the saved against the faith through which they were saved.

                  The saved are saved to walk in the good works which God has prepared beforehand for them to do. People do not do good works to be saved.
                  Test all things and praise God from whom all blessings flow!

                  Peace,
                  BJ -Bear
                  VDMA (1 Peter 1:25)
                  WELS

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by BJ BEAR View Post
                    In other words, you keep trying to pit a negative characterization of the expression of the faith of the saved against the faith through which they were saved.
                    I don't have to pit them against one another--I believe they are integral components one to another. Just like one does not pit the engine against the car. There is no need to--they are integral components one to another.

                    Lutherans do pit them against one another, as they believe one can't even do works until they are saved. They believe in obtaining salvation, excluding all works.

                    Or--they are saved through a dead faith(a faith without works)

                    The saved are saved to walk in the good works which God has prepared beforehand for them to do. People do not do good works to be saved.
                    Declaring what the intentions of one is --in no way excludes the testimony God gives His salvational grace of life--to them which do good, or that all men will be judged according to works, Christians included:


                    John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
                    28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
                    29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

                    2 Corinthians 5:10---King James Version (KJV)
                    10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

                    Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)
                    27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

                    Romans 2:5-11---King James Version (KJV)
                    5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
                    6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
                    7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
                    8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
                    9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
                    10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
                    11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
                    1 Peter 1:16-17---King James Version (KJV)
                    16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
                    17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

                    That is pitted against faith alone theology.

                    Comment


                    • Hi DB,

                      So you are trying to justify the confusion of two categories by the confusion of two other categories? There are works done in this life which the Lord has prepared for the saved to do, Eph 2, and there is a summary recounting of those performed works on the last day in the Matthew passage you cite.
                      Test all things and praise God from whom all blessings flow!

                      Peace,
                      BJ -Bear
                      VDMA (1 Peter 1:25)
                      WELS

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by BJ BEAR View Post
                        Hi DB,

                        There are works done in this life which the Lord has prepared for the saved to do, Eph 2,
                        Would this be an example of that?

                        Acts 2:38-42 ---King James Version (KJV)
                        38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
                        39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
                        40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
                        41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
                        42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

                        So--were those above saved prior to the remission of sins?

                        and there is a summary recounting of those performed works on the last day in the Matthew passage you cite.
                        But that is a judgment according to works--and that for life or damnation:

                        John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
                        28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
                        29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

                        2 Corinthians 5:10---King James Version (KJV)
                        10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

                        Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)
                        27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

                        Romans 2:5-11---King James Version (KJV)
                        5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
                        6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
                        7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
                        8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
                        9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
                        10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
                        11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
                        1 Peter 1:16-17---King James Version (KJV)
                        16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
                        17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:


                        How do we fit that into faith alone theology?

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post

                          Would this be an example of that?

                          Acts 2:38-42 ---King James Version (KJV)
                          38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
                          39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
                          40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
                          41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
                          42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

                          So--were those above saved prior to the remission of sins?

                          But that is a judgment according to works--and that for life or damnation:

                          John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
                          28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
                          29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

                          2 Corinthians 5:10---King James Version (KJV)
                          10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

                          Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)
                          27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

                          Romans 2:5-11---King James Version (KJV)
                          5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
                          6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
                          7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
                          8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
                          9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
                          10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
                          11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
                          1 Peter 1:16-17---King James Version (KJV)
                          16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
                          17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:


                          How do we fit that into faith alone theology?
                          Bump for Lutherans

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post
                            Hi Jake:

                            I don't find that anywhere in Ephesians 2. Perhaps you would like to point that out.

                            My reading states we are saved by grace through faith:

                            Ephesians 2:8---King James Version (KJV)
                            8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

                            We are not saved by faith nor works--but by God's grace.

                            Jake--I'm not the one who advocates we are saved by faith. It's by God's grace.

                            The question now is--who does God give this grace to?

                            Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
                            9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

                            Jake--when you find the term "faith" in the Bible--is that a reference to a faith with works--or a reference to a faith without works?
                            Bump for all Lutherans--let's discuss Ephesians 2.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post
                              Hi Jake:

                              I don't find that anywhere in Ephesians 2. Perhaps you would like to point that out.

                              My reading states we are saved by grace through faith:

                              Ephesians 2:8---King James Version (KJV)
                              8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

                              We are not saved by faith nor works--but by God's grace.

                              Jake--I'm not the one who advocates we are saved by faith. It's by God's grace.

                              The question now is--who does God give this grace to?

                              Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
                              9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

                              Jake--when you find the term "faith" in the Bible--is that a reference to a faith with works--or a reference to a faith without works?
                              Bonnie? Lutherans?

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post
                                The Ephesians2 verse excludes both faith and works as being the agent which saves us. It's by God's grace we are saved--not by our faith or works.

                                So--is the "faith" referenced here--a faith without works?

                                Ephesians 2:8-9--- King James Version (KJV)
                                8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
                                9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

                                The Lutherans preach one is saved, or--obtains salvation--- through a faith without works. The Bible differs:

                                James 2:24--- New American Standard Bible (NASB)
                                24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

                                Were these saved prior to the remission of sins?

                                Acts 2:38 ---King James Version (KJV)
                                38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
                                Bump for anyone

                                Comment

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