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Ephesians 2

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  • #46
    Originally posted by Thekla View Post
    1 Peter 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
    I guess some people do not have much hope in them, to defend, eh? Some have turned the Good News into bad news.
    "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
    "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
    “It’s easy to fool a man, but nearly impossible to convince him he's been fooled. --Mark Twain."
    "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
    "The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."--anonymous
    "If Jesus isn't THE WAY, then there is nothing else."--Bob

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by Thekla View Post
      Can you have good works without faith?
      I suppose so--but faith without works is dead faith, nonetheless:

      James 2:17-26--- King James Version (KJV)
      17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
      18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
      19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
      20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
      21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
      22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
      23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
      24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, andnot by faith only.
      25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
      26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also

      So--how do you fit that into Lutheran theology?

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post

        You might want to relay that to other Lutherans:

        There is no contradiction, if that is what you are implying.

        Reread our posts. S l o w l y.

        And the other Lutherans on here know very well Who is their Savior. And how He saves us.
        "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
        "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
        “It’s easy to fool a man, but nearly impossible to convince him he's been fooled. --Mark Twain."
        "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
        "The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."--anonymous
        "If Jesus isn't THE WAY, then there is nothing else."--Bob

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post

          I suppose so--but faith without works is dead faith, nonetheless:

          James 2:17-26--- King James Version (KJV)
          17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
          18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
          19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
          20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
          21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
          22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
          23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
          24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, andnot by faith only.
          25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
          26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also

          So--how do you fit that into Lutheran theology?
          How can you have good works without faith in Christ? And why can't you answer my question. How can you believe the two vesrses

          Eph 2 and James 2

          They either agree with each other, which is what Lutherans believe, or they contradict each other which is what you appear to believe. So tell us how they agree?

          And yeah, we ALL believe that we are saved by grace. It is the rest of the verse that is causing you a problem. So big you don't answer the question.
          Mark 9:24 Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

          “Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has; it never comes to the aid of spiritual things,
          but more frequently than not struggles against the divine Word, treating with contempt all that emanates from God.” ― Martin Luther


          Muretus "Call no man worthless for whom Christ died!"

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Bonnie View Post
            And the other Lutherans on here know very well Who is their Savior.
            Would that be this Savior?

            Matthew 19:16-19 ---King James Version (KJV)
            16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
            17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
            18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
            19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.


            How do you fit that into Lutheran theology?

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post I suppose so--but faith without works is dead faith, nonetheless:

              James 2:17-26--- King James Version (KJV)
              17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
              18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
              19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
              20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
              21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
              22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
              23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
              24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
              25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
              26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also

              So--how do you fit that into Lutheran theology?
              Originally posted by Thekla View Post
              How can you have good works without faith in Christ?
              I suppose the same way one could claim faith in Jesus Christ--and not have works. Or, maybe the devils believing without faith.

              Either case scenario is dead, if the testimony of James is true.

              And why can't you answer my question. How can you believe the two vesrses Eph 2 and James 2

              They either agree with each other, which is what Lutherans believe, or they contradict each other which is what you appear to believe.
              Cite, please. Please give us any cite where I have opined Eph2 and James 2 contradict one another.

              So--how do you collate a dead faith with salvation? The Lutherans do preach salvation comes to the exclusion of works?

              So tell us how they agree? And yeah, we ALL believe that we are saved by grace. It is the rest of the verse that is causing you a problem.
              Eph2 does not cause me any problems. I don't believe one is saved by works, but by God's grace--and that grace unto life, as a personal reception---goes to them which obey God:

              Hebrews 5:9 ---King James Version (KJV)
              9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

              So--why do the Lutherans preach a gospel of obtaining salvation without any acts of obedience to Jesus Christ?

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post



                I suppose the same way one could claim faith in Jesus Christ--and not have works. Or, maybe the devils believing without faith.

                Either case scenario is dead, if the testimony of James is true.



                Cite, please. Please give us any cite where I have opined Eph2 and James 2 contradict one another.

                So--how do you collate a dead faith with salvation? The Lutherans do preach salvation comes to the exclusion of works?



                Eph2 does not cause me any problems. I don't believe one is saved by works, but by God's grace--and that grace unto life, as a personal reception---goes to them which obey God:

                Hebrews 5:9 ---King James Version (KJV)
                9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

                So--why do the Lutherans preach a gospel of obtaining salvation without any acts of obedience to Jesus Christ?
                Except we don't preach that. No Lutheran on here is proclaiming a faith without works or obedience. We proclaim a saving faith that leads to doing good works and doing what pleases God. Please learn the difference.

                And as I have stated I don't know how many times, a faith that leads to trusting and believing in Jesus Christ is very much alive. For how could a faith that enables us to believe in Jesus be "dead"?

                We obey IN faith in Jesus Christ. We do good works IN faith in Jesus Christ. We obey and do good works IN salvation, not FOR salvation.

                And "obedience of faith" IS believing in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. When we believe in Him we HAVE OBEYED HIM. Remember this:

                https://faithalone.org/magazine/y1993/93july3.html

                Now, suppose you answer my simple questions about Ephesians 2:10, dberrie. I have only been asking you about...oh, 10 months or more, or so....
                "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
                "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
                “It’s easy to fool a man, but nearly impossible to convince him he's been fooled. --Mark Twain."
                "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
                "The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."--anonymous
                "If Jesus isn't THE WAY, then there is nothing else."--Bob

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post I suppose the same way one could claim faith in Jesus Christ--and not have works. Or, maybe the devils believing without faith.

                  Either case scenario is dead, if the testimony of James is true.

                  Cite, please. Please give us any cite where I have opined Eph2 and James 2 contradict one another.

                  So--how do you collate a dead faith with salvation? The Lutherans do preach salvation comes to the exclusion of works?

                  Eph2 does not cause me any problems. I don't believe one is saved by works, but by God's grace--and that grace unto life, as a personal reception---goes to them which obey God:

                  Hebrews 5:9 ---King James Version (KJV)
                  9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

                  So--why do the Lutherans preach a gospel of obtaining salvation without any acts of obedience to Jesus Christ?
                  Originally posted by Bonnie View Post
                  Except we don't preach that...
                  Please list for us what acts of obedience you believe one must do in order to obtain salvation.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post



                    Please list for us what acts of obedience you believe one must do in order to obtain salvation.
                    Please answer the questions that I have been asking you about Ephesians 2:10 for many months now....and answer the points and questions Thekla made....
                    "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
                    "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
                    “It’s easy to fool a man, but nearly impossible to convince him he's been fooled. --Mark Twain."
                    "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
                    "The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."--anonymous
                    "If Jesus isn't THE WAY, then there is nothing else."--Bob

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post

                      That only connects works and faith as integral components one to another.

                      It's termed "dead faith" when they are separated.

                      The separated faith(dead faith) is what the Lutherans claim one is saved through.
                      No, we haven't "separated" them at all!

                      is a faith that enables us to believe in Jesus Christ be living--or dead? Care to give me a straight answer to that simple question?
                      "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
                      "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
                      “It’s easy to fool a man, but nearly impossible to convince him he's been fooled. --Mark Twain."
                      "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
                      "The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."--anonymous
                      "If Jesus isn't THE WAY, then there is nothing else."--Bob

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post I suppose the same way one could claim faith in Jesus Christ--and not have works. Or, maybe the devils believing without faith.

                        Either case scenario is dead, if the testimony of James is true.

                        Cite, please. Please give us any cite where I have opined Eph2 and James 2 contradict one another.

                        So--how do you collate a dead faith with salvation? The Lutherans do preach salvation comes to the exclusion of works?

                        Eph2 does not cause me any problems. I don't believe one is saved by works, but by God's grace--and that grace unto life, as a personal reception---goes to them which obey God:

                        Hebrews 5:9 ---King James Version (KJV)
                        9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

                        So--why do the Lutherans preach a gospel of obtaining salvation without any acts of obedience to Jesus Christ?
                        Originally posted by Bonnie View Post Except we don't preach that...
                        Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post Please list for us what acts of obedience you believe one must do in order to obtain salvation
                        Originally posted by Bonnie View Post
                        Please answer the questions that I have been asking you about Ephesians 2:10 for many months now....and answer the points and questions Thekla made....
                        It seems the Lutherans always find a diversion when called to answer that question.

                        The reason being--there isn't one single act of obedience the Lutherans believe is necessary for salvation to occur. It's a faith without works one is saved through.

                        That's right--what the Biblical NT terms a "faith without works is dead"---the Lutherans believe, and preach--- is a saving faith.

                        James 2:17-26--- King James Version (KJV)
                        17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
                        18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
                        19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
                        20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
                        21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
                        22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
                        23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
                        24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, andnot by faith only.
                        25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
                        26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post That only connects works and faith as integral components one to another.

                          It's termed "dead faith" when they are separated.

                          The separated faith(dead faith) is what the Lutherans claim one is saved through.
                          Originally posted by Bonnie View Post
                          No, we haven't "separated" them at all!
                          Then please do reveal to us what works you add to faith in obtaining salvation.

                          is a faith that enables us to believe in Jesus Christ be living--or dead? Care to give me a straight answer to that simple question?
                          All faith without works is a dead faith--when speaking of eternal life:

                          James 2:17-26--- King James Version (KJV)
                          17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
                          18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
                          19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
                          20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
                          21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
                          22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
                          23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
                          24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
                          25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
                          26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post



                            Then please do reveal to us what works you add to faith in obtaining salvation.



                            All faith without works is a dead faith--when speaking of eternal life:

                            James 2:17-26--- King James Version (KJV)
                            17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
                            18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
                            19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
                            20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
                            21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
                            22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
                            23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
                            24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
                            25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
                            26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also
                            NONE! "This is the work of God: that you believe on Him Whom God has sent."

                            Oh, and I noticed that you didn't answer my other question in my last post--par for the course--about if a faith that enables us to believe in Jesus Christ unto salvation is "living" or "dead". Can a dead faith enable us to believe in Jesus?

                            Go to Luke 7:50 and tell us what Jesus said ACTUALLY SAVED the woman.

                            But as soon as YOU answer my questions about Ephesians 2:10, that I have been asking you to do for many months, now., you will see HOW we are able to do good works! Need me to repeat those questions for you? i will be happy to do so.

                            "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
                            "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
                            “It’s easy to fool a man, but nearly impossible to convince him he's been fooled. --Mark Twain."
                            "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
                            "The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."--anonymous
                            "If Jesus isn't THE WAY, then there is nothing else."--Bob

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Bonnie View Post

                              NONE! "This is the work of God: that you believe on Him Whom God has sent."

                              Oh, and I noticed that you didn't answer my other question in my last post--par for the course--about if a faith that enables us to believe in Jesus Christ unto salvation is "living" or "dead". Can a dead faith enable us to believe in Jesus?

                              Go to Luke 7:50 and tell us what Jesus said ACTUALLY SAVED the woman.

                              But as soon as YOU answer my questions about Ephesians 2:10, that I have been asking you to do for many months, now., you will see HOW we are able to do good works! Need me to repeat those questions for you? i will be happy to do so.
                              Read Rom 2: 13 by your uncle Paul.


                              Romans 2:13 King James Version (KJV)

                              13 "For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified."
                              Fear God and keep his commandments,
                              for this is the duty of ALL mankind. Ecc 12: 13

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post Then please do reveal to us what works you add to faith in obtaining salvation.
                                Originally posted by Bonnie View Post
                                NONE!

                                Then why edit ?


                                Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post The Lutherans do preach salvation comes to the exclusion of works?

                                So--why do the Lutherans preach a gospel of obtaining salvation without any acts of obedience to Jesus Christ?
                                Originally posted by Bonnie View Post Except we don't preach that...
                                Last edited by CARM Admin; 03-04-18, 02:46 PM. Reason: edit/alert

                                Comment

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