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Moved to Lutheran

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  • Moved to Lutheran

    Originally posted by Bonnie View Post
    That is what has happened in Mormonism. People prefer its "myths" to the truth.
    Before you throw too many more rocks through your glass house in a vain attempt to hit the house next door, a question for you:
    Are you expecting people to believe that people in YOUR church didn't refer the following myths as the truth? I mean, antis whose own church's founder taught that men and women often have sex with the devil and produce half-human, half-demon children-----isn't that a textbook case of rocks from a glass house, or of criticizing a mote in someone else's eye while the accuser has a phone-pole-sized log in her own eye?????



    “The Devil can so completely assume the human form, when he wants to deceive us, that we may well lie with what seems to be a woman, of real flesh and blood, and yet all the while ’tis only the Devil in the shape of a woman. ‘Tis the same with women, who may think that a man is in bed with them, yet ’tis only the Devil; and…the result of this connection is oftentimes an imp of darkness, half mortal, half devil….”

    “How often have not the demons called ‘Nix’ drawn women and girls into the water, and there had commerce with them, with fearful consequences.”

    “Idiots, the lame, the blind, the dumb, are men in whom the devils have established themselves: and all the physicians who heal these infirmities, as though they proceeded from natural causes, are ignorant blockheads….”


    “Our bodies are always exposed to Satan. The maladies I suffer are not natural, but Devil’s spells.” (Martin Luther)

    “When I was a child there were many witches, and they bewitched both cattle and men, especially children.”

  • #2
    First of all, this was Luther's opinion. None of this is incorporated into our church's doctrines. Secondly, I would have to see more of this in context, as I know from experience that Luther MUST be quoted fully in context, or else one can misunderstand what he meant. And often make it appear he is saying something different. If anyone knows where he wrote this, please post it here more fully, in context. Thanks.

    Lastly, since this was never taught as doctrine in our church, it would be the equivalent of Joseph Smith or Brigham Young claiming people lived on the sun, or lived on the moon, and dressed like Quakers and lived a thousand years. These things were just speculation and opinion, and never taught as doctrine, either.

    But if anyone has Luther's quotes more in context, please put them down here, or a link to it. James Swan? BJ Bear? I know from experience that some Mormon posters are wont to quote quite out of context, sometimes. I do not know if this is one of those times, however. Thanks.
    "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
    "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
    "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
    "The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."--anonymous
    "If Jesus isn't THE WAY, then there is nothing else."--Bob

    Comment


    • #3
      I did manage to find out where it came from:

      http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2013/04/

      (ADMIN gave me permission a long time ago to put down links to this blogsite. She is well acquainted with James Swan's work here)

      One must scroll down a ways to find where it says "Luther and the Spawn of Satan". These quotes in the OP are dealt with. The quotes appear to come from his table talks and are not documented anywhere else, as far as I can tell from this website. Also, Luther was a product of his time believing in such things as water demons (nixes) and changelings and devil's spawns, in some instances.

      But what is curious to note is stuff BY MORMONS on this website about this. It appears to have come from CARM discussions some years ago.

      However, I don't recall anyone on CARM saying that the LDS believe that the devil can have children; only that we know Mormonism teaches that their god has literal spirit children, including Jesus and Satan. That is not the same thing at all as to what Luther was saying.

      So while Luther had his strange views, they were never incorporated into our doctrines AT ALL. NOT the way the doctrine of the Mormon god having first been a man on "an earth" who had to work his way up to godhood , and who, with his exalted wife or wives, fathered countless spirit children, is taught as doctrine in the LDS church.

      Also, Luther isn't and wasn't a prophet nor did he ever claim to be. He was spot on in bringing back the true Gospel of Jesus Christ that had been buried under tons of man-made Roman Catholic doctrines for so many centuries, but perfect he was not. He was, as the article shows, a product of his times. He said and did and wrote some stupid things that his wife Katie should have given him a permanent tonsure for, with an iron skillet. But though he made wrong judgments and wrote stuff he never should have, he was, unlike the founder of Mormonism, a faithful, devoted husband to ONE WIFE. He and his Katie raised 6 children, 4 of whom survived to adulthood. They also raised 11 orphans. There is no record of Luther trying to marry, secretly or otherwise, any of the girls he and Katie took in to raise, . They also opened the Black Cloisture where they lived for use as a hospital when bubonic plague struck Wittenburg.

      So while I certainly honor Martin Luther for how God used him to bring back the true doctrine of Jesus Christ, my faith as a Christian doesn't rise or fall upon Luther's character, but upon Jesus Christ and HIS "character." I am a Christian first ,and a Lutheran second--very second.
      "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
      "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
      "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
      "The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."--anonymous
      "If Jesus isn't THE WAY, then there is nothing else."--Bob

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by NRA-Jeff View Post
        Before you throw too many more rocks through your glass house in a vain attempt to hit the house next door, a question for you:
        Are you expecting people to believe that people in YOUR church didn't refer the following myths as the truth? I mean, antis whose own church's founder taught that men and women often have sex with the devil and produce half-human, half-demon children-----isn't that a textbook case of rocks from a glass house, or of criticizing a mote in someone else's eye while the accuser has a phone-pole-sized log in her own eye?????



        “The Devil can so completely assume the human form, when he wants to deceive us, that we may well lie with what seems to be a woman, of real flesh and blood, and yet all the while ’tis only the Devil in the shape of a woman. ‘Tis the same with women, who may think that a man is in bed with them, yet ’tis only the Devil; and…the result of this connection is oftentimes an imp of darkness, half mortal, half devil….”

        “How often have not the demons called ‘Nix’ drawn women and girls into the water, and there had commerce with them, with fearful consequences.”

        “Idiots, the lame, the blind, the dumb, are men in whom the devils have established themselves: and all the physicians who heal these infirmities, as though they proceeded from natural causes, are ignorant blockheads….”


        “Our bodies are always exposed to Satan. The maladies I suffer are not natural, but Devil’s spells.” (Martin Luther)

        “When I was a child there were many witches, and they bewitched both cattle and men, especially children.”
        Hello, I see that you have received some good replies, but I would like to add that what also excludes your representation of perhaps some "table talks" is Luther's distinction of the external clarity of the word and the internal clarity of the word. The external clarity of the word is what Scripture says and that is what is to be proclaimed publicly from the pulpit. The internal clarity of the word is what what the person or pastor understands the word to mean to him and when that is not in line with what Scripture says then that understanding is to remain the study.
        Test all things and praise God from whom all blessings flow!

        Peace,
        BJ -Bear
        VDMA (1 Peter 1:25)
        WELS

        Comment


        • #5
          "Remain the study"? What do you mean by that, BJ?
          "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
          "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
          "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
          "The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."--anonymous
          "If Jesus isn't THE WAY, then there is nothing else."--Bob

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Bonnie View Post
            "Remain the study"? What do you mean by that, BJ?
            That expression is from the English translator/author of Luther's Works AE vol 58(?), Luther as Expositor, and it means that when the internal clarity of the word is at odds with the external clarity of the word (at odds with what Scripture says) then that personal misunderstanding of the word is not for public proclamation, it is not to be proclaimed from the pulpit.

            Edited to add: I now see that there was a typo in the post to which you replied. It should have read, "remain in the study." Sorry for any trouble that typo may have caused.
            Test all things and praise God from whom all blessings flow!

            Peace,
            BJ -Bear
            VDMA (1 Peter 1:25)
            WELS

            Comment


            • #7
              Oh, okay. "IN the study" makes more sense.

              But it sounds as if that means that personal opinion is NOT to be proclaimed from the pulpit--is that it?
              "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
              "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
              "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
              "The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."--anonymous
              "If Jesus isn't THE WAY, then there is nothing else."--Bob

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Bonnie View Post
                Oh, okay. "IN the study" makes more sense.

                But it sounds as if that means that personal opinion is NOT to be proclaimed from the pulpit--is that it?
                Yes, personal opinion or belief which is not in line with what a section of Scripture says is "NOT" to be proclaimed from the pulpit. In simplest terms, an example would be if Scripture says "up" the pastor is not to preach "down." A real life example from Luther would be in a dispute with regard to the Supper (at least that is where my fallible memory places the thought) in which he basically said that what he was saying is what Scripture says.

                Test all things and praise God from whom all blessings flow!

                Peace,
                BJ -Bear
                VDMA (1 Peter 1:25)
                WELS

                Comment


                • #9
                  Correction: The volume I was thinking of, Luther As Expositor, was a companion volume to volumes 1-30.

                  Test all things and praise God from whom all blessings flow!

                  Peace,
                  BJ -Bear
                  VDMA (1 Peter 1:25)
                  WELS

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Thanks!
                    "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
                    "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
                    "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
                    "The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."--anonymous
                    "If Jesus isn't THE WAY, then there is nothing else."--Bob

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by BJ BEAR View Post
                      Correction: The volume I was thinking of, Luther As Expositor, was a companion volume to volumes 1-30.
                      Luther the Expositor (Introduction to the Reformer's Exegetical Writings)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by James Swan View Post

                        Luther the Expositor (Introduction to the Reformer's Exegetical Writings)
                        Thanks, James. It is a good thing that when the train goes off the tracks there are walls in the subway for it to careen its way forward.
                        Test all things and praise God from whom all blessings flow!

                        Peace,
                        BJ -Bear
                        VDMA (1 Peter 1:25)
                        WELS

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I know I'm late to this party.

                          I looked over the comments from NRA-Jeff, and also the link back to my 2013 blog post that Bonnie linked. I have my suspicions that it was similar comments from NRA-Jeff that provoked the entry, and these are his favorite Luther-isms. If I'm following all of this correctly: The argument here is that Bonnie should not criticize Mormon beliefs as myths or tales if in fact the originator of Lutheranism (Martin Luther) believed in myths as well. The argument appears to be that since Luther believed in mythical changelings, there's no basis to criticize anything similarly strange in Mormonism. The argument doesn't follow: the "myths" being referred to in Mormonism are those found in their books of divine revelation. Luther's "myth" holds no such divine pedigree. Search through the official documents of the Lutheran church, and one will not find a doctrinal approval of changelings, Nixes, or half-human-half-demon children. Luther held to a lot of odd beliefs that were part of the medieval culture in which he lived.

                          For the sake of my specialty, tedium, elsewhere, the version of the quotes NRA-Jeff posted he says he found "as quoted by John Mark Ministries." I went through JMM, and found two uses of the first two quotes (I haven't gotten to the others). JMM posted the quotes on one page to demonstrate how those who quote Luther with such shock quotes are not sincere. The other page simply uses the quotes and asks that Luther be remembered for all the good he did. Neither provides any actual documentation.

                          In regard to the first two quotes (and I suspect some of the others), the English rendering was that of William Hazlitt who translated them from Jules Michelett's, The Life of Luther Written By Himself. Hazlitt was somewhat liberal with his translation of Michelet's French. He actually added a sentence to the first quote, "'Tis the same with women, who may think it is a man in bed with them, yet 'tis only the devil." That sentence is not in Michelet's French volume (nor in the German text that Michelet used).

                          It has already been pointed out that Luther didn't write the text in question, but comes from the Tischreden. The Tischreden used by Michelet was probably John Aurifaber's version of 1568. The context (in English) for the first two quotes can be found here. The section is entitled, "How the Devil can deceive people and beget Children." To simply demonstrate the incongruity with the second-hand nature of the Table Talk and more legitimate texts from Luther, elsewhere Luther denies the Devil can beget human children. In his later exposition of Genesis, Luther states:
                          So far as incubi and succubi are concerned, I do not deny, but believe, that the devil may happen to be either a succubus or an incubus; for I have heard many relate their very own experiences. Augustine, too, declares that he heard the same sort of story from trustworthy people whom he felt compelled to believe. It delights Satan if he can delude us by taking on the appearance either of a young man or of a woman. But that anything can be born from the union of a devil and a human being is simply untrue. Such an assertion is sometimes made about hideous infants that resemble demons very much. I have seen some of these. But I am convinced either that these were deformed, but not begotten, by the devil, or that they are actual devils with flesh that they have either counterfeited or stolen from somewhere else. If with God’s permission the devil can take possession of an entire human being and change his disposition, what would be so remarkable about his misshaping the body and bringing about the birth of either blind or crippled children? (LW 2:11)
                          Regards, JS

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Genesis 6: 6 When man began to multiply on the face of the land and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of man were attractive. And they took as their wives any they chose. 3 Then the Lord said, “My Spirit shall not abide in[a] man forever, for he is flesh: his days shall be 120 years.” 4 The Nephilim[b] were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown.

                            Numbers 13: 30 But Caleb quieted the people before Moses and said, “Let us go up at once and occupy it, for we are well able to overcome it.” 31 Then the men who had gone up with him said, “We are not able to go up against the people, for they are stronger than we are.” 32 So they brought to the people of Israel a bad report of the land that they had spied out, saying, “The land, through which we have gone to spy it out, is a land that devours its inhabitants, and all the people that we saw in it are of great height. 33 And there we saw the Nephilim (the sons of Anak, who come from the Nephilim), and we seemed to ourselves like grasshoppers, and so we seemed to them.”

                            I don't see why one wouldn't believe that demons can mate with human women.
                            Last edited by Thekla; 05-29-18, 07:52 AM.
                            Mark 9:24 Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

                            “Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has; it never comes to the aid of spiritual things,
                            but more frequently than not struggles against the divine Word, treating with contempt all that emanates from God.” ― Martin Luther


                            Muretus "Call no man worthless for whom Christ died!"

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Thekla View Post
                              Genesis 6: 6 When man began to multiply on the face of the land and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of man were attractive. And they took as their wives any they chose. 3 Then the Lord said, “My Spirit shall not abide in[a] man forever, for he is flesh: his days shall be 120 years.” 4 The Nephilim[b] were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown.

                              Numbers 13: 30 But Caleb quieted the people before Moses and said, “Let us go up at once and occupy it, for we are well able to overcome it.” 31 Then the men who had gone up with him said, “We are not able to go up against the people, for they are stronger than we are.” 32 So they brought to the people of Israel a bad report of the land that they had spied out, saying, “The land, through which we have gone to spy it out, is a land that devours its inhabitants, and all the people that we saw in it are of great height. 33 And there we saw the Nephilim (the sons of Anak, who come from the Nephilim), and we seemed to ourselves like grasshoppers, and so we seemed to them.”

                              I don't see why one wouldn't believe that demons can mate with human women.
                              I don't recall looking up Luther on Genesis 6:4 before. He refers to the "sons of God" being those who "fell away from the worship and Word of God and became entirely worldly, with the result that they corrupted not only the church but also the state and the home" (LW 2:32). The "giants" that were born were "arrogant men who usurped both the government and the priesthood" (Ibid.). They were giants in the sense of being "not men of huge mass of body, as in the passage in Numbers, but unruly and mischievous men, the way the poets depict the Cyclopes, who fear neither God nor men but pursue only their own desires and rely on their own power and strength" (LW 2:34). There is also a contrast with "the true sons of God, namely, Noah with his children" (LW 2:37)

                              JS.

                              edited to add:

                              "Moses simply calls the sons of the patriarchs, to whom the promise of the Seed was given, “sons of God”; they were the true church. When they yielded to the seductions of the Cainite church, they also proceeded to gratify the desires of the flesh and to take wives from the Cainite race, likewise concubines, as many as they wanted and whomever they chose. Lamech and Noah observed this with grief; and for this reason, perhaps, they married rather late" (LW 2:10).

                              Here, too, the Jews come up with a variety of foolish ideas. They describe the sons of God as incubi from which that notorious and ungodly race was begotten; they further maintain that the sons of God are given this name because of their spiritual nature. The less extreme among them, on the other hand, prove these foolish ideas to be false and describe the 'sons of God' as the sons of the mighty. Lyra neatly disposes also of this idea by pointing out that the punishment of the Flood was not a punishment upon the mighty alone, but upon all flesh, just as the punishment of the Last Day will be.

                              So far as incubi and succubi are concerned, I do not deny, but believe, that the devil may happen to be either a succubus or an incubus; for I have heard many relate their very own experiences. Augustine, too, declares that he heard the same sort of story from trustworthy people whom he felt compelled to believe.15 It delights Satan if he can delude us by taking on the appearance either of a young man or of a woman. But that anything can be born from the union of a devil and a human being is simply untrue. Such an assertion is sometimes made about hideous infants that resemble demons very much. I have seen some of these. But I am convinced either that these were deformed, but not begotten, by the devil, or that they are actual devils with flesh that they have either counterfeited or stolen from somewhere else. If with God’s permission the devil can take possession of an entire human being and change his disposition, what would be so remarkable about his misshaping the body and bringing about the birth of either blind or crippled children?" (LW 2:10-11).




                              Last edited by James Swan; 05-29-18, 11:48 AM.

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