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  • #16
    Originally posted by James Swan View Post
    I know I'm late to this party.

    I looked over the comments from NRA-Jeff, and also the link back to my 2013 blog post that Bonnie linked. I have my suspicions that it was similar comments from NRA-Jeff that provoked the entry, and these are his favorite Luther-isms. If I'm following all of this correctly: The argument here is that Bonnie should not criticize Mormon beliefs as myths or tales if in fact the originator of Lutheranism (Martin Luther) believed in myths as well. The argument appears to be that since Luther believed in mythical changelings, there's no basis to criticize anything similarly strange in Mormonism. The argument doesn't follow: the "myths" being referred to in Mormonism are those found in their books of divine revelation. Luther's "myth" holds no such divine pedigree. Search through the official documents of the Lutheran church, and one will not find a doctrinal approval of changelings, Nixes, or half-human-half-demon children. Luther held to a lot of odd beliefs that were part of the medieval culture in which he lived.
    Good points.

    Originally posted by James Swan View Post
    For the sake of my specialty, tedium, elsewhere, the version of the quotes NRA-Jeff posted he says he found "as quoted by John Mark Ministries." I went through JMM, and found two uses of the first two quotes (I haven't gotten to the others). JMM posted the quotes on one page to demonstrate how those who quote Luther with such shock quotes are not sincere. The other page simply uses the quotes and asks that Luther be remembered for all the good he did. Neither provides any actual documentation.
    Sorry if I'm wrong, but I'll take your characterization of "tedium" as tongue in cheek. A careful reading of Scripture and critical thinking was integral to the Evangelical reformation just as it is integral to a right understanding in other areas of life and thought. An example of a kindred soul in this regard speaking on another area of life and thought is Dr Thomas Sowell. In an interview the interviewer expressed surprise at how quickly and easily Dr Sowell dismissed the conclusions in the book of another economist and Sowell's response was roughly, "If you check the footnotes you become a skeptic real fast."

    Originally posted by James Swan View Post
    In regard to the first two quotes (and I suspect some of the others), the English rendering was that of William Hazlitt who translated them from Jules Michelett's, The Life of Luther Written By Himself. Hazlitt was somewhat liberal with his translation of Michelet's French. He actually added a sentence to the first quote, "'Tis the same with women, who may think it is a man in bed with them, yet 'tis only the devil." That sentence is not in Michelet's French volume (nor in the German text that Michelet used).

    It has already been pointed out that Luther didn't write the text in question, but comes from the Tischreden. The Tischreden used by Michelet was probably John Aurifaber's version of 1568. The context (in English) for the first two quotes can be found here. The section is entitled, "How the Devil can deceive people and beget Children." To simply demonstrate the incongruity with the second-hand nature of the Table Talk and more legitimate texts from Luther, elsewhere Luther denies the Devil can beget human children. In his later exposition of Genesis, Luther states:
    So far as incubi and succubi are concerned, I do not deny, but believe, that the devil may happen to be either a succubus or an incubus; for I have heard many relate their very own experiences. Augustine, too, declares that he heard the same sort of story from trustworthy people whom he felt compelled to believe. It delights Satan if he can delude us by taking on the appearance either of a young man or of a woman. But that anything can be born from the union of a devil and a human being is simply untrue. Such an assertion is sometimes made about hideous infants that resemble demons very much. I have seen some of these. But I am convinced either that these were deformed, but not begotten, by the devil, or that they are actual devils with flesh that they have either counterfeited or stolen from somewhere else. If with God’s permission the devil can take possession of an entire human being and change his disposition, what would be so remarkable about his misshaping the body and bringing about the birth of either blind or crippled children? (LW 2:11)
    Regards, JS
    Primarily referring back to the contrast in the first substantive section of your post, Luther provides a vast amount of material when it comes to pointed statements regarding expressions of original sin trumping the word of God in the minds of some. Another one that I like is, "Therefore we should learn that God is not pleased with self-chosen works and that no way of worship should be prescribed to Him according to our judgment. But we should use Him as our Instructor and Guide. The Lord God does not want to be your pupil and should not be your pupil. He must remain the Teacher and Guide. But the perversity of human nature is so great that we neglect what God commands and choose what He has not prescribed.

    But they say: “We are doing this with good zeal and purpose.” For this is the source of all superstitions and heresies, and from it have come the monks, the Stoics, and the Baalites, who drew blood by puncturing the body with lancets and hoped to be heard for this reason (cf. 1 Kings 18:28)." Luther's Works, AE, Vol VII, (c)CPH

    Test all things and praise God from whom all blessings flow!

    Peace,
    BJ -Bear
    VDMA (1 Peter 1:25)
    WELS

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by James Swan View Post
      I know I'm late to this party.

      I looked over the comments from NRA-Jeff, and also the link back to my 2013 blog post that Bonnie linked. I have my suspicions that it was similar comments from NRA-Jeff that provoked the entry, and these are his favorite Luther-isms. If I'm following all of this correctly: The argument here is that Bonnie should not criticize Mormon beliefs as myths or tales if in fact the originator of Lutheranism (Martin Luther) believed in myths as well. The argument appears to be that since Luther believed in mythical changelings, there's no basis to criticize anything similarly strange in Mormonism. The argument doesn't follow: the "myths" being referred to in Mormonism are those found in their books of divine revelation. Luther's "myth" holds no such divine pedigree. Search through the official documents of the Lutheran church, and one will not find a doctrinal approval of changelings, Nixes, or half-human-half-demon children. Luther held to a lot of odd beliefs that were part of the medieval culture in which he lived.

      For the sake of my specialty, tedium, elsewhere, the version of the quotes NRA-Jeff posted he says he found "as quoted by John Mark Ministries." I went through JMM, and found two uses of the first two quotes (I haven't gotten to the others). JMM posted the quotes on one page to demonstrate how those who quote Luther with such shock quotes are not sincere. The other page simply uses the quotes and asks that Luther be remembered for all the good he did. Neither provides any actual documentation.

      In regard to the first two quotes (and I suspect some of the others), the English rendering was that of William Hazlitt who translated them from Jules Michelett's, The Life of Luther Written By Himself. Hazlitt was somewhat liberal with his translation of Michelet's French. He actually added a sentence to the first quote, "'Tis the same with women, who may think it is a man in bed with them, yet 'tis only the devil." That sentence is not in Michelet's French volume (nor in the German text that Michelet used).

      It has already been pointed out that Luther didn't write the text in question, but comes from the Tischreden. The Tischreden used by Michelet was probably John Aurifaber's version of 1568. The context (in English) for the first two quotes can be found here. The section is entitled, "How the Devil can deceive people and beget Children." To simply demonstrate the incongruity with the second-hand nature of the Table Talk and more legitimate texts from Luther, elsewhere Luther denies the Devil can beget human children. In his later exposition of Genesis, Luther states:
      So far as incubi and succubi are concerned, I do not deny, but believe, that the devil may happen to be either a succubus or an incubus; for I have heard many relate their very own experiences. Augustine, too, declares that he heard the same sort of story from trustworthy people whom he felt compelled to believe. It delights Satan if he can delude us by taking on the appearance either of a young man or of a woman. But that anything can be born from the union of a devil and a human being is simply untrue. Such an assertion is sometimes made about hideous infants that resemble demons very much. I have seen some of these. But I am convinced either that these were deformed, but not begotten, by the devil, or that they are actual devils with flesh that they have either counterfeited or stolen from somewhere else. If with God’s permission the devil can take possession of an entire human being and change his disposition, what would be so remarkable about his misshaping the body and bringing about the birth of either blind or crippled children? (LW 2:11)
      Regards, JS
      Thanks, James! I knew you would have the "skinny" on all of this. But you are right about your assessment of what the Mormon poster's point was. I did ask him, "Joseph Smith once said that there are people on the moon who are six feet tall, dress like Quakers, and live for 1000 years. Was that ever taught as doctrine in your church, or was it just Joseph Smith's OPINION?" I told him that what Luther said about human/demon hybrids was just an OPINION of his and was NEVER, EVER taught as doctrine, any more than the Quakers on the moon was taught as doctrine in his LDS church. That did not go over well with the poster.

      This poster used the same argument with Luther's telling Phillip of Hesse to lie about taking a second wife, when we point out how JS lied about having more than one wife, when he had dozens. But again I countered that his was very bad PERSONAL advice that Luther gave Phillip and that bigamy/polygamy is and was NEVER an actual doctrine in our church, as it was in the LDS church for many years. Luther was wrong and I think you said that he came to regret what he told Phillip. I think also that Luther hated divorce with a passion.

      But again, Luther was a loyal, devoted husband to his Katie , even by today's standards, and thought the world of her, despite their little squabbles. The same can never be said of Joseph Smith, Jr.
      "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
      "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
      “It’s easy to fool a man, but nearly impossible to convince him he's been fooled. --Mark Twain."
      "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
      "If the truth hurts--then it is working."--anonymous

      Comment


      • #18
        Here is the extended critique: Luther: The Devil Can So Completely Assume the Human Form...'Tis Only the Devil in the Shape of a Woman... I will get to other quotes at some point.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by James Swan View Post
          Here is the extended critique: Luther: The Devil Can So Completely Assume the Human Form...'Tis Only the Devil in the Shape of a Woman... I will get to other quotes at some point.
          Say, thanks, James! I have repeatedly told this person that NONE of these things Luther supposedly believed are part of our doctrines and never were. Just his opinions. Just like their founder once made the comment to a friend that the moon was inhabited by 6 ft. tall people dressed like Quakers who could live a 1000 years--that was never part of Mormon doctrine, either. And B. Young also opined that the sun was inhabited. That was never taught as doctrine either--for good reason!

          Thank you again for your research. God bless you!
          "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
          "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
          “It’s easy to fool a man, but nearly impossible to convince him he's been fooled. --Mark Twain."
          "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
          "If the truth hurts--then it is working."--anonymous

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by James Swan View Post
            I know I'm late to this party.

            I looked over the comments from NRA-Jeff, and also the link back to my 2013 blog post that Bonnie linked. I have my suspicions that it was similar comments from NRA-Jeff that provoked the entry, and these are his favorite Luther-isms. If I'm following all of this correctly: The argument here is that Bonnie should not criticize Mormon beliefs as myths or tales if in fact the originator of Lutheranism (Martin Luther) believed in myths as well. The argument appears to be that since Luther believed in mythical changelings, there's no basis to criticize anything similarly strange in Mormonism. The argument doesn't follow: the "myths" being referred to in Mormonism are those found in their books of divine revelation. Luther's "myth" holds no such divine pedigree.
            I agree. The post and pillar of Lutheran theology are myths without any "divine pedigree".

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post

              I agree. The post and pillar of Lutheran theology are myths without any "divine pedigree".
              Tell us what you are talking about. What do you consider the post and pillar of Lutheran theology.
              Mark 9:24 Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

              “Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has; it never comes to the aid of spiritual things,
              but more frequently than not struggles against the divine Word, treating with contempt all that emanates from God.” ― Martin Luther


              Muretus "Call no man worthless for whom Christ died!"

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Thekla View Post
                Tell us what you are talking about. What do you consider the post and pillar of Lutheran theology.
                Faith alone theology--sola fide.

                James 2:24--- New American Standard Bible (NASB)
                24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post

                  Faith alone theology--sola fide.

                  James 2:24--- New American Standard Bible (NASB)
                  24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone
                  By grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ Jesus alone. Amen!

                  "For it is by grace, you have been saved; through faith--and that NOT of ourselves; it is the GIFT OF GOD--and NOT BY WORKS, so no one may boast. For we are GOD'S workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which He has prepared beforehand, so that we may walk in them."

                  So answer these questions about these verses, dberrie:

                  1. IF we are SAVED--and this means eternal life in heaven with Jesus Christ--by grace THROUGH faith and NOT BY WORKS--what else is there left to be saved by?
                  2. WHOSE workmanship are we? Our own? Do WE make ourselves over in Christ Jesus? OR does Someone else do it?
                  3. IN WHOM are we created to DO good works?
                  4. WHO has prepared--and enabled--us to DO good works? So that we can walk--do-- in them?

                  Answer these questions correctly and directly and then you will understand what James means. At least intellectually. But spiritually--that won't happen because as Paul wrote "the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to those of us who are being saved, it is the power of God." And he also wrote that "such things must be spiritually discerned " and those whose minds are unspiritual--the unsaved--will not understand the things of God, on a spiritual level.
                  "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
                  "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
                  “It’s easy to fool a man, but nearly impossible to convince him he's been fooled. --Mark Twain."
                  "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
                  "If the truth hurts--then it is working."--anonymous

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Bonnie View Post
                    By grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ Jesus alone. Amen!
                    There is only one mention of the term "faith alone" found in the entire Biblical text:

                    James 2:24--- New American Standard Bible (NASB)
                    24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone

                    Do you have another instance where the term "faith alone" appears in the Biblical text?




                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post

                      There is only one mention of the term "faith alone" found in the entire Biblical text:

                      James 2:24--- New American Standard Bible (NASB)
                      24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone

                      Do you have another instance where the term "faith alone" appears in the Biblical text?



                      "For by grace you are saved; THROUGH FAITH--and that NOT of yourselves; it is the GIFT OF GOD--and NOT by works, so no one may boast. For we are God's workmanship, CREATED IN CHRIST JESUS FOR GOOD WORKS, which He has prepared in advance for us to do, so that we may walk in them." (Eph. 2:8-10)

                      SO, what part of these verses don't you understand? Take a good look at them and answer these questions with DIRECT ANSWERS, PLEASE:

                      1. WHOSE workmanship are we?
                      2. WHO has prepared us in advance to DO good works?
                      3. IN WHOM have we been created to DO good works?
                      4. And WHO enables us to DO (walk in) good works?

                      Answer these simple questions accurately and you will know then what James is talking about. But do you know what the word "with" means? As in faith with works? "With" means "accompanied by" or "leading to". or "having" So James is talking about a faith that has good works, or is accompanied by good works, or leads to doing good works. IF this faith does NOT lead to or is NOT accompanied by, or does NOT have good works, then it is dead and empty and not real faith. So do we Lutherans believes. But God does not give His children dead gifts and a faith that enables us to believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and God and Savior isn't dead, is it? For could a dead faith enable a person to believe and trust in Jesus Christ for salvation,great and free? And such a living faith will lead to doing good works out of love for our Savior and what He has done for us. For we will have been made a new creation in Him, that WANTS to obey God and do what is pleasing in His sight.
                      "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
                      "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
                      “It’s easy to fool a man, but nearly impossible to convince him he's been fooled. --Mark Twain."
                      "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
                      "If the truth hurts--then it is working."--anonymous

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post There is only one mention of the term "faith alone" found in the entire Biblical text:

                        James 2:24--- New American Standard Bible (NASB)
                        24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone

                        Do you have another instance where the term "faith alone" appears in the Biblical text?
                        Originally posted by Bonnie View Post
                        "For by grace you are saved; THROUGH FAITH--and that NOT of yourselves; it is the GIFT OF GOD--and NOT by works, so no one may boast. For we are God's workmanship, CREATED IN CHRIST JESUS FOR GOOD WORKS, which He has prepared in advance for us to do, so that we may walk in them." (Eph. 2:8-10)
                        Not one mention of "faith alone" there.

                        Again--this is the only instance of the term "faith alone" found in the entire Biblical text:

                        James 2:24--- New American Standard Bible (NASB)
                        24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone

                        SO, what part of these verses don't you understand? Take a good look at them and answer these questions with DIRECT ANSWERS, PLEASE:

                        1. WHOSE workmanship are we?
                        2. WHO has prepared us in advance to DO good works?
                        3. IN WHOM have we been created to DO good works?
                        4. And WHO enables us to DO (walk in) good works?

                        Answer these simple questions accurately and you will know then what James is talking about.
                        What James is referring to is a faith without works is dead--period.

                        James 2:18-26--- King James Version (KJV)
                        18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
                        19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
                        20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

                        21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
                        22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
                        23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
                        24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
                        25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
                        26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.


                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post
                          Not one mention of "faith alone" there.
                          That is a misreading of what was quoted because, "For by grace are you saved through faith and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God."
                          Test all things and praise God from whom all blessings flow!

                          Peace,
                          BJ -Bear
                          VDMA (1 Peter 1:25)
                          WELS

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post



                            Not one mention of "faith alone" there.

                            Again--this is the only instance of the term "faith alone" found in the entire Biblical text:

                            James 2:24--- New American Standard Bible (NASB)
                            24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone



                            What James is referring to is a faith without works is dead--period.

                            James 2:18-26--- King James Version (KJV)
                            18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
                            19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
                            20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

                            21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
                            22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
                            23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
                            24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
                            25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
                            26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

                            IF we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, and NOT by works, then what ELSE is there left to be saved by? Works show to the world that our faith is genuine and TRUE and not dead, but they do not save us. We are therefore justified before the world by our works, but have no reason to boast about them, since it is Christ Jesus Who enables us to DO them in the first place, and walk in them!

                            So kindly answer my questions, dberrie. Instead of just repeating your regurgitated talking points.
                            "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
                            "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
                            “It’s easy to fool a man, but nearly impossible to convince him he's been fooled. --Mark Twain."
                            "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
                            "If the truth hurts--then it is working."--anonymous

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by NRA-Jeff View Post
                              Idiots, the lame, the blind, the dumb, are men in whom the devils have established themselves: and all the physicians who heal these infirmities, as though they proceeded from natural causes, are ignorant blockheads&
                              I spent some time today with this quote over on my blog. It's Table Talk comment that has been exaggerated. I could not locate the word "blockheads" in the text, this appears to be an addition by a person who translated a French secondary source into English.

                              Luther was simply saying that physicians at times ignore the fact that the Devil is behind certain afflictions. They underestimate his power, or ignore his power.


                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post Not one mention of "faith alone" there.

                                Again--this is the only instance of the term "faith alone" found in the entire Biblical text:

                                James 2:24--- New American Standard Bible (NASB)
                                24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone

                                What James is referring to is a faith without works is dead--period.

                                James 2:18-26--- King James Version (KJV)
                                18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
                                19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
                                20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

                                21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
                                22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
                                23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
                                24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
                                25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
                                26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.


                                Originally posted by Bonnie View Post
                                IF we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, and NOT by works, then what ELSE is there left to be saved by?
                                Again--nothing. There is nothing in this world--or any other--that will save man--- besides the grace of God.That's it, Bonnie.

                                That leaves but one question, IMO--who does God give this grace unto life?

                                Matthew 7:19-21-- King James Version (KJV)
                                19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
                                20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
                                21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

                                How do you fit that into faith alone theology?

                                Comment

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